Journalism and sexism in the games industry

[Tale]

This Zoe chick really needs to get over herself. GG was never about her.

Then why, 4 months later, is she the top topic on KiA?

 

Because code attribution (that's up right now, at least) is the most important issue in games journalism?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

And now look what I found.http://www.quinnspiracy.com/clone/The attribution is at the bottom. So has the problem been solved or was it always there? Simple mistake or campaign of misinformation by an online mob against a woman they've been targetting for, what, 4 months now?Does it still make sense to want to cover? Because that's the line you're looking at.

It was corrected recently. Good on her for crediting the work she used in her game. In a world where using code uncredited is as common as it is, correcting a mistake is admirable.

 

As to our online mob, Gawker has been targeted much more than her. Care to defend them?

[Blarghagh]

I have no control over what KiA discusses. I think it's unproductive towards #GamerGate's stated goals so everyone involved with that bit can just **** right off as far as I'm concerned. But like I said, amorphous blob of people. If I browse the hashtag, I see a lot of people constantly disagreeing with each other.

[Tale]

As to our online mob, Gawker has been targeted much more than her. Care to defend them?

No, because that's at least on topic of what you're supposed to be about. And they've done some truly ****ty stuff. Like the times they contributed to the leak of celebrity nudes, which wasn't even all that long ago.

 

But going after game developers for petty slights, denying harassment, doxing, and the other disgusting things you enable, you deserve to be called out for it.

 

I have no control over what KiA discusses. I think it's unproductive towards #GamerGate's stated goals so everyone involved with that bit can just **** right off as far as I'm concerned. But like I said, amorphous blob of people. If I browse the hashtag, I see a lot of people constantly disagreeing with each other.

By the same token you don't get to define Gamergate. Actions are more defining than stated goals.

 

Being an amorphous blob isn't a shield from criticism.

 

I've taken no issue with you, TrueNeutral. Your movement signal boosts some truly terrible crap. And the worst I can level at you is being willfully ignorant of it in favor of pursuing some respectable goals. We all make that mistake from tiem to time. I probably spent too much time in Retake despite the people using it just to hurl insults at Bioware on a personal level. But in the evaluation of ends and means, I'm ultimately not liking it.

[Blarghagh]

Did I use it as such? I believe I've pretty graciously accepted said criticism and admitted that I share that criticism.

[Meshugger]

I think Tale is talking about other people that we have no clue about.

[Blarghagh]

He's got a point though, #GamerGate can be pretty awful. But when push came to shove, the side that couldn't agree on anything wasn't the one that told me that if I don't join them in fighting then I was a terrible human being that needed to be purged. That was the side that agrees on everything pretty vehemently. I'm not willfully ignorant of anything, I'm very well aware and I'm choosing the lesser evil as I was made to.

[Nonek]

In fairness though trying to stop female developers games from being bought, harassing people whom disagree with their cult, doxing, censoring free speech, trying to get individuals fired, partaking in unethical and corrupt behaviour, trying to silence women and minorities, insulting millions of people from diverse backgrounds, races, genders and creeds, even to the point of wishing they were all dead (repeatedly) however is perfectly acceptable. In fact I believe some believe it's righteous to demonise and hate perfectly innocent people who've done nothing, and aren't even on Twitter.

 

Edit: Not to mention trying to deny charities donations because of their own petty hatreds, adoration of the Nazi's, advocation of death camps for the above millions, using unrelated school shootings and murders to score points for their own idiotic teenage moralising without even sympathising with the victims, and whatever the latest idiocy Mr McIntosh is spouting, whether that is games should have no gameplay or whatever.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Nonek

[TrashMan]

Here's how that's going to go down. The creator of the code is going to contact her, ask her to put in the appropriate comment or readme, she's going to do it, and the creator will say everything's good now.

 

But you're still going to be obsessing over a women who's not a journalist in a movement that's about ethics in journalism.

 

Who said that is ALL it is about?

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

As to our online mob, Gawker has been targeted much more than her. Care to defend them?

No, because that's at least on topic of what you're supposed to be about. And they've done some truly ****ty stuff. Like the times they contributed to the leak of celebrity nudes, which wasn't even all that long ago.But going after game developers for petty slights, denying harassment, doxing, and the other disgusting things you enable, you deserve to be called out for it.

I enable none of those things and condemn them when I have the opportunity. By that logic, you enable the harassment of Liana K and Claire Schumann, attempting to tank Jennifer D'Aww's Seedscape, and denying Ablegamers money from Mercedes Carrera's Porn Charity. I won't ascribe to guilt by association, but perhaps you should check where you're standing before tossing stones.

 

Of course, I suppose one could consider drawing a mob towards Brad Wardell a "petty slight", but I would call that inducing harassment. As to alleged theft, as someone whose work was "appropriated" I tend to get very angry over stuff like that. Then again, my "going after" those in question involves bitching about it on KiA instead of bothering them on Twitter.

[Blarghagh]

Tale did not state he supported the hardcore anti-#GamerGate people. This helps no one.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Tale did not state he supported the hardcore anti-#GamerGate people. This helps no one.

I didn't say he did. I said that by his logic, he enables their misdeeds similarly to how I enable those of people who claim ideological alignment with me. The difference is subtle, but it is there.

 

I condemn all harassment, no matter who the victim is and who the perpetrator is. I do not support placing the blame for the actions of a few on a movement as a whole, or even that the movement is supporting those actions. Just like I have no control over the actions of the reprehensible people who attacked Briana Wu, Tale has no control over those who attacked Liana K. I will not accept being held responsible for the actions of those I have no control over, I think the harrassers are terrible excuses for human beings and should **** right off, but do not believe anyone but themselves are responsible for their activity and as such only they should be blamed for it.

[Blarghagh]

I must confess I do not know how my private e-mailing of companies and careful consideration of what I tweet and retweet using a hashtag enables these people. They started doing it before #GamerGate was even a thing and they'll keep doing it after it fades. The media coverage may have brought more of them out of the woodwork but it's not really me or those on my side that controls that coverage, is it?

[Orogun01]

He's got a point though, #GamerGate can be pretty awful. But when push came to shove, the side that couldn't agree on anything wasn't the one that told me that if I don't join them in fighting then I was a terrible human being that needed to be purged. That was the side that agrees on everything pretty vehemently. I'm not willfully ignorant of anything, I'm very well aware and I'm choosing the lesser evil as I was made to.

Yes, and there has been a response by the GG to coordinate in order to end harassment by reporting. 

 

There is the fact that they way that you hear it from most media it is just the Pro side doing the harassment and evidence of harassment committed by key figures within the Anti side gets ignored. This one side reporting is just more proof of the corruption of media and their narrative abuses, it is akin to war where each side promotes their own accomplishments while sweeping under the rug its atrocities. It is indicative of the stance from most media that they are either to incompetent to research their info or to entrenched in ideology to accept the facts. Both things are problematic and are the major elements that led to this revolt.

[Blarghagh]

You're preaching to the choir here man. There have been serious efforts to shut the harassment down but there simply isn't much people can do to fend off anonymous trolls. It's all well and good to tell me "they in YOUR movement" but I still don't know who they bloody well are and how to stop them. But knowing this doesn't change the fact that some people in #GamerGate are still absolute ****.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I must confess I do not know how my private e-mailing of companies and careful consideration of what I tweet and retweet using a hashtag enables these people. They started doing it before #GamerGate was even a thing and they'll keep doing it after it fades. The media coverage may have brought more of them out of the woodwork but it's not really me or those on my side that controls that coverage, is it?

I only do the former(I hate Twitter with a burning passion) but it doesn't. It's guilt by association, which is an utterly ridiculous idea if you believe in personal responsibility. I will be one of the first to denounce trolls who harass anyone at all, but I refuse to blame those who are ideologically aligned with the harrassers of conspiracy or even that they are enabling it. I believe that we should judge individuals by their actions and assume innocence until guilt is proven, and I believe that if this happened from the beginning we would all be sitting around playing vidya instead of treating each other like ****.

[Meshugger]

Decado from the 'Codex wrote a new piece:

 

https://egalitarianvideogamejerk.wordpress.com/2014/12/12/critics/

[Volourn]

"But I'm glad you have least responded with one possible reason how removing hookers will degrade the game because most people  seem unable  to do this and I've the question several times "

 

Who are you to mansplain about how real life female hookers think or feel or about GTA fake hookers? I seriously doubt they gave a crap. If all hookers are in dire sttraits like you claim they have more important things to think about than some silly video game. Man, the sexism on you just oozes.

 

 

"NV had male and female hookers, it was realistic

 

GTA only has female hookers, you cannot argue this is a realistic view of the sex trade?"
 

Insanity.

 

 

"You see this is  what is the real issue at hand, you guys think it is the beginning of a slippery slope

 

Its not and doesn't have to be, I can think of two solutions"

 

First, you SJWs claim that you weren't after  taking away/banning games. That you just wanted more 'bvariety'. Now, the banning agenda has been revealed, you are claiming  that it'll stop under some condition.

 

Stop lying. Just admit the truth. You only want games that are acceptable to you. You want to control everyone. You believe in slavery. You want to ban/burn/kill anything or anyone that disagrees with you. That's why the gamers are dead/bring back bullying/intimidation articles/attack on female devs has occured from your side. Just admit the truth.

 

 

"I'm interested, because I'm obviously too stupid to  grasp the nuances of this debate, how is having female hookers only  an example of freedom of expression. What would a developer be expressing?"

\

Who are you to tell a developer that they can only create x? Who are you to order people what they can and cannot play? That's evil.

 

 

 

"To be fair, I agree with Bruce to a point - I think it would be interesting to see how people would deal with male prostitutes in GTA and they are increasingly a larger part of the crime world so it's not outlandish to add them (and it would probably remove some of the voices shouting nonsense over "bah GTA is sexist!" because for some reason people are obsessed with things seeming "fair" to their false perceptions). I also think it would be interesting to see a female lead in GTA, and I think women should be allowed to explore their dark side via the safety of cartoonish fake violence which would be easier to do for them with a female avatar. It's obvious to see why Rockstar hasn't added a female avatar, however, from the responses to, say, Bayonetta and Tomb Raider."

 

People simply wouldn't care. Gamers have no problem with Lara croft and all the other female protags.  Gamers wouldn't care about male prostitutes either. They would either kill them or they wouldn't just like the female one. That is a poor argument.

 

 

"Bruce, would you be inclined to respond to this interview in at least somewhat depth? I'd be interested in hearing your view."

 

Bruce ignores any interview with a woman who disagrees with him. I've posted 3 different female centric videos that were on the GG side and he ignored every single one because it destroys his narrative that gamers are just white male racists exist dead zombies.

 

 

"I think it's cute how you have to resort to codenames so you can pretend you're not obsessing over women who aren't even journalists, in a movement that's supposed to be about journalism."

\

GG is a lot bigger than that.  It is in miniscule. My big issue is the accusation of me being a racists exist white male gamer who SJWs both see as dead and want to murder me. When someone threatens me with dead I  fight back.

 

 

"To be fair you guys obsess about many topics and basically all the time, this whole thread and the previous ones are testimony to that"

 

We're the obsessive ones? We aren't the ones whow rote 10 article os 'gamers are dead', we aren't the one who manspalin to women about how they're just sockpuppets. L0LZ

 

 

"He's got a point though, #GamerGate can be pretty awful."

 

No. That's anti GG and SJWs. By your logic, btw, I should be blaming you for harassing female devs, for bullying, and threatening to murder me. Riciculousness. What haoppened to personal responsility and freedom? Why are you guys such nazis?

 

 

"Tale did not state he supported the hardcore anti-#GamerGate people. This helps no one."
 

Yes, he does. He opposes GG and is on their side. So, by his logic, he certainly does. According to him, you get lumped in with everybody else 'on your side' like sports teams.

[Fighter]

This is the internet you cannot control what people do nor can you be expected to. People have done terrible things for the most noble reasons. Case and point the doxxing of completely random posters for "Social Justice". You want to pin something on someone pin that on your own forehead.

[Nonek]

What i find interesting is that some members of the gaming press are now saying that Gamergate is against criticism, when in point of fact the organisation arose in part because of a lack of criticism. The undisputed corrupt nature of the gaming press, and their symbiotic relationship with the medium they should be criticising for the public, is what drove many to detest game journalism. They awarded mediocre games perfect scores and championed streamlining and dumbing down for years, and now say that they are trying to improve the medium.

 

Game criticism is what most forums engage in as a matter of course, it is not frowned upon or unwanted, it is embraced. And the arguments are usually far more informed than the gaming press can manage, and argue for better quality, more innovation, more diversity, more internal consistency and less handholding and needless accessibility that is quite frankly insulting. Of course this criticism is also far superior to those popular critics who don't even play the games they criticise, or believe games should not be interactive at all. 

 

Yet game journalists and SJFs herald massively regressive graphical picture books as the future, and argue for a core experience, or even a single feature in a game being far better than ambition, complexity, depth or layers. They champion regression, and have done for years, at the consumers expense and for their own enrichment.

 

Hypocrisy thy name is game journalism.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

https://archive.today/I5y1t

 

Looks like doxing is ok, as long as it happens to the right people.

 

I can't wait to have my personal information leaked so my girlfriend and I can receive threats, because e-mailing Gawker's advertisers is such an affront to humanity.

[Keyrock]

https://archive.today/I5y1t

 

Looks like doxing is ok, as long as it happens to the right people.

 

I can't wait to have my personal information leaked so my girlfriend and I can receive threats, because e-mailing Gawker's advertisers is such an affront to humanity.

The ol' it's fine and even positive when we, the "good people" do it to the "bad people".  Of course, we determine who the "good people" and the "bad people" are.

 

Well, no chance that kind of thing could ever be abused and go awry.  How could that possibly ever lead down a dark and dangerous path?  There are certainly no precedents in history of people using such power of judgement and dishing out punishment with impunity for "the greater good" and it turning into horrific atrocities.  Nope, not a single one.  

 

But hey, it's not like these "good people", these champions of justice could possibly be wrong in their assertions.  They know what's best, for all of us.  They can't possibly be wrong.  That kind of power with impunity could only be a benefit in their hands.  It's not like any of history's great monsters ever felt they knew what was best for everyone and used their power for "the greater good" with impunity, just like them.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Keyrock

[Orogun01]

https://archive.today/I5y1t

 

Looks like doxing is ok, as long as it happens to the right people.

 

I can't wait to have my personal information leaked so my girlfriend and I can receive threats, because e-mailing Gawker's advertisers is such an affront to humanity.

I'm really hoping that GG will become a launch platform to get moderate voices into every aspect of society. Because more and more i'm seeing loud extremists everywhere and I blame the Internet and the culture that it created.

 

Edit:Speaking of which

 

http://www.deathmetal.org/article/metalgate/

Edited December 13, 2014 by Orogun01

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

https://archive.today/I5y1t

 

Looks like doxing is ok, as long as it happens to the right people.

 

I can't wait to have my personal information leaked so my girlfriend and I can receive threats, because e-mailing Gawker's advertisers is such an affront to humanity.

I'm really hoping that GG will become a launch platform to get moderate voices into every aspect of society. Because more and more i'm seeing loud extremists everywhere and I blame the Internet and the culture that it created.

 

I honestly doubt it. Here in this thread we're more concerned with the McIntosh's various crazy statement's than someone like.....Daimon Schubert I suppose, precisely because the voices of McIntosh and his ilk are amplified much more than those of moderate folks. The media is mostly to blame I believe, after all in the age of clicks pissing someone off is far more likely to get a reaction than a relatively bland look at the arguments presented, and these sites are run on clicks so do the math.

 

As to GG, I just want my vidya gaem news sites to list disclosures and attempt to not write about those they have close personal relationships with. After that, an environment where I can protest censorship of GTA or criticize individuals who happen to be female without being labeled a misogynist neckbeard would be awful nice as well.

[Namutree]

This thread is like the energizer bunny.