What do you think the twist(s) will be in KOTOR II

[Indalecio]

I think Kreia will actually BE the sithlord you are fighting. I know this is a bit weird but, did you think when you found that your character was Reven???

Hey, you know what they say, keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.

 

Maybe Kreia's a Sith Lady, there to show you the "error" of your ways.

[Child of Flame]

Grey:

"The way some people tell it, the bad plot twist, NPC, romance, dialogue, breach of canon, etc, ruined the game in its entirety. It's likely that he's replying to those very same people, and not those who write an eloquent and critical opinion regarding an apsect of the game they didn't like. Logic dictates that he was talking about the former, not the latter, thus your questioning of his logic is illigocal. You questions his conclusions, yet you draw conclusions regarding his intent that likely aren't present."

 

It is logical to base your questioning on what another has said, not what he might have said or what he might have meant. If I were to do that, I'd be making assumptions about someone that I have little to no experience with and that would be illogical. At no point did I question his intent; rather, I questioned the logic of his statement as it stood. The illogical thing would be to add or subtract from his statement based on what I perceived as his intent

[Maria Caliban]

Oh, you think we're Vulcans but the twist is that we're actually Romulans.

[Child of Flame]

Oh, you think we're Vulcans but the twist is that we're actually Romulans.

Damned Trekkies.

[GhostofAnakin]

Ghost of Anikan:

" It's amazing how many people seem to whine about the twist in KOTOR being terrible. It's amazing that these same people, for some inexplicable reason, keep posting and playing said "crappy" game and are eagerly awaiting the sequel to said crappy game."

 

Let me get this straight: if you think one part of a game boring, you must automatically think the game is crappy and not look forward to its sequel? Even if that part is several hours into gameplay? Which would suggest you enjoyed the parts before it.

 

Is this really a logical conclusion to make?

Sorry I didn't type out a 2 page essay on exactly what I meant.

 

All I was eluding to is I find it extremely frustrating/annoying/partly strange that certain posters insist on doing nothing but bitching about how certain aspects of the game "ruined" it for them and in effect, made the game terrible (their words, not my own interpretation of their words) keep coming back here to post over and over about it.

 

Constructive critisism is one thing. But that's not what these people do. They just bitch and moan about how crappy the game was and how they don't understand how people can actually call it a great game. So my rhetorical question to them was then why keep coming back to a message board dedicated to that game.

 

My intent was not directed at those who maybe felt the graphics could have been better, but enjoyed the game none the less. Or those who think the combat wasn't as good as it could have been, but played through the game countless times. Rather, it was directed at those who have nothing good to say about the game, yet constantly return to post on this (and other KOTOR message boards) about how much they thought the game sucked because of the various aspects of the game (ie. storyline, twist, combat, graphics, etc.).

[Grey]

Oh, you think we're Vulcans but the twist is that we're actually Romulans.

I had a nice scathing reply all written up and ready to go until I saw that. It disarmed me, I mean I can't believe you'd blow our cover!

 

At any rate, my rebuttal was of excellent quality and proved all my assertions beyond argument and doubt. Take my word for it, and we'll go from there; it's the only logical thing to do, afterall.

[nightcleaver]

Ghost of Anikan:

" It's amazing how many people seem to whine about the twist in KOTOR being terrible. It's amazing that these same people, for some inexplicable reason, keep posting and playing said "crappy" game and are eagerly awaiting the sequel to said crappy game."

 

Let me get this straight: if you think one part of a game boring, you must automatically think the game is crappy and not look forward to its sequel? Even if that part is several hours into gameplay? Which would suggest you enjoyed the parts before it.

 

Is this really a logical conclusion to make?

Sorry I didn't type out a 2 page essay on exactly what I meant.

 

All I was eluding to is I find it extremely frustrating/annoying/partly strange that certain posters insist on doing nothing but bitching about how certain aspects of the game "ruined" it for them and in effect, made the game terrible (their words, not my own interpretation of their words) keep coming back here to post over and over about it.

 

Constructive critisism is one thing. But that's not what these people do. They just bitch and moan about how crappy the game was and how they don't understand how people can actually call it a great game. So my rhetorical question to them was then why keep coming back to a message board dedicated to that game.

 

My intent was not directed at those who maybe felt the graphics could have been better, but enjoyed the game none the less. Or those who think the combat wasn't as good as it could have been, but played through the game countless times. Rather, it was directed at those who have nothing good to say about the game, yet constantly return to post on this (and other KOTOR message boards) about how much they thought the game sucked because of the various aspects of the game (ie. storyline, twist, combat, graphics, etc.).

You can keep on building and building on top of other people's methods, but you're putting a method to a method which doesn't actually work, because a method is immaterial and a method has to be applied to something material. A method can ADD to a method, but never take another method into account.

 

Myself, I've played many games I didn't particularly care for in a lot of ways, as games are rarely any good in plot, voice acting, or in any way except that they're an advanced (and somewhat more fun) way to twiddle your thumbs.

 

That said, anything you put your mind to has flaws, and many (good) things have a lot of flaws; this is fact. Pointing out many flaws gives the impression of a negative impression, but it doesn't inherently MEAN a negative impression. That's what Maria was saying.

Really, you could go on and on about the good things too in order to give a more quote-unquote "accurate" portrayal, but really the only person who takes all these flaws to mean, inherently (which it doesn't) a negative view, is the person who fails to see that the other person is actually just criticizing the good thing in all it's flaws.

 

Basically, this would be a better way to say what Maria originally intended:

 

People are criticizing the game. People, who obviously enjoyed the first and are looking forward to the second, to whatever extent they enjoy/look forward to said game, criticize the game. The flaws are not self-evident in the game being a bad thing, even if they flaws themselves are bad. Thus, saying that people are contradicting themselves by critiquing the game and at the same time looking forward to it is false.

 

And yes, I read your full post, but I was also responding to the discussion that was going on after your initial post, anikin.

[Maria Caliban]

Grey:

"At any rate, my rebuttal was of excellent quality and proved all my assertions beyond argument and doubt. Take my word for it, and we'll go from there; it's the only logical thing to do, afterall."

 

How could I argue with logic like that? Why, Aristotle himself would have to reconsider his arguments after that rebuttal.

 

 

That said, I think we should all get high and love one another no matter what we thought of the first game. It would help the Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords community.

[EnderAndrew]

Don't try to inject common sense and login into this community.

 

It would implode.

 

To tell you the truth, Maria, I'm really curious what your take is on the plot twist.

[GhostofAnakin]

You can keep on building and building on top of other people's methods, but you're putting a method to a method which doesn't actually work, because a method is immaterial and a method has to be applied to something material. A method can ADD to a method, but never take another method into account.

 

Myself, I've played many games I didn't particularly care for in a lot of ways, as games are rarely any good in plot, voice acting, or in any way except that they're an advanced (and somewhat more fun) way to twiddle your thumbs.

 

That said, anything you put your mind to has flaws, and many (good) things have a lot of flaws; this is fact. Pointing out many flaws gives the impression of a negative impression, but it doesn't inherently MEAN a negative impression. That's what Maria was saying.

Really, you could go on and on about the good things too in order to give a more quote-unquote "accurate" portrayal, but really the only person who takes all these flaws to mean, inherently (which it doesn't) a negative view, is the person who fails to see that the other person is actually just criticizing the good thing in all it's flaws.

 

Basically, this would be a better way to say what Maria originally intended:

 

People are criticizing the game. People, who obviously enjoyed the first and are looking forward to the second, to whatever extent they enjoy/look forward to said game, criticize the game. The flaws are not self-evident in the game being a bad thing, even if they flaws themselves are bad. Thus, saying that people are contradicting themselves by critiquing the game and at the same time looking forward to it is false.

 

And yes, I read your full post, but I was also responding to the discussion that was going on after your initial post, anikin.

Apparently you misunderstood the "people" I'm referring to in my initial post. As I stated (or alluded to), I am NOT commenting on those who offer critisisms towards aspects of the game they feel is flawed, but overall thought it was a good gaming experience. I was directing my comment towards those on this board (not necesarily in this thread) who seem to actually HATE the game (and have said so endlessly), yet still seem to lurk around on these forums, and also seem to be looking forward to KOTOR2. My only point was I find it rather rediculous to stick around a forum, and continually discuss a game that you dislike (you, being a general you, and not YOU).

 

Example: I absolutely hated Star Wars: Rebellion. So therefore, you won't find me on their message boards posting continuously about how terrible the game was, or how it's the biggest pile of garbage I've ever played. I also wouldn't be on a message board commenting on the release of a sequel for that game. But that seems to be what certain posters do on here. They hate the game, but yet they seem to troll just to add a "see, such and such aspect of the game sucks. it'll never change. it sucked in the first game, it sucks now."

 

Summary: constructive critisism and critique of certain aspects of the game seem logical, and those who ENJOYED the game would like to see their ideas implemented, or their dislikes aired. moaning and whining because the game was absolute crap, yet posting constantly about it on the message board is pointless.

[Maria Caliban]

Ghost of Anikin:

" Summary: constructive critisism and critique of certain aspects of the game seem logical, and those who ENJOYED the game would like to see their ideas implemented, or their dislikes aired. moaning and whining because the game was absolute crap, yet posting constantly about it on the message board is pointless. "

 

I concur!

 

Ender:

" Don't try to inject common sense and login into this community.

 

It would implode."

 

The people in this forum aren't that bad. I find the majority of them to be intelligent, mature, and polite. I think message boards simply are a poor medium when it comes to conveying your personality.

 

"To tell you the truth, Maria, I'm really curious what your take is on the plot twist."

 

I wish I could offer something up but I feel I know too little about the plot to even try. From what I heard, it's supposed to be even more impressive than the original one. Maybe the good Jedi you've been working with since the beginning turn out to be Sith? All that good you've been doing actually was furthering their power. Of course, that would only work for a lightsider.

[Tyrell]

I have a good feeling that the twist could have something to do with the Mandalorian Wars....

Given that the Mandalorian War is a theme that's present in both games, I have a suspicion that you may be on to something with that.

Exactly. I mean look at it like this.

 

In KOTOR the Mandalorian War was heavily talked about and had much to do with the story. Carth was a Republic Solider who fought in the War, Revan and Malak were Jedi who fought for the Republic in the war, and Canderous was a Mandalorian of the Ordo clan who fought in the war.

 

In KOTOR two you are an Jedi who is exiled from the Jedi order and has also fought in the Mandalorian War.....under Revan....in which his fate will be explained.

 

As you should know, the Jedi wasn't supposed to get involved. Revan and Malak, young and headstrong and eager for some action went against the will of the counsil and went to fight in the war. Many other Jedi followed in their paths. When Revan and Malak came back, Revan was the Sith Lord and Malak was his apprentice and those Jedi who went out and followed him also fell to the darkside. You (Your character in KOTOR II) were one of the Jedi who went against the will of the counsil and fought in the war. However you didn't come back as a Sith, but instead for some reason you were exiled from the Jedi Order.

 

When KOTOR II starts off, the only think your character remembers is that he fought in the Mandalorian War and that he was kicked out of the Jedi Order.

 

So that means you must know and remember Revan. If Revan is in the game and if you meet him, he should recognize your and remember you.

 

So my theory is that the twist probably has something to do with the Mandalorian War and why you were exiled from the Jedi Order. I mean, you had to do something pretty harsh for you to go fight in a War and save the republic and only to come back to find out that you are kicked out. You must have did something, but for some reason, in KOTOR II you don't remember that.

 

I might not be heading nowhere with this but it is just a speculation.

[Indalecio]

So that means you must know and remember Revan. If Revan is in the game and if you meet him, he should recognize your and remember you.

Not necessarily. Depending on how many Jedi left, Revan might have never met you, or you might be just an aquaintance.

 

So my theory is that the twist probably has something to do with the Mandalorian War and why you were exiled from the Jedi Order. I mean, you had to do something pretty harsh for you to go fight in a War and save the republic and only to come back to find out that you are kicked out. You must have did something, but for some reason, in KOTOR II you don't remember that.

 

I might not be heading nowhere with this but it is just a speculation.

 

Or possibly, you got exiled because you left in the first place. It proved you were a hot-head; easily swayed by your emotions. What Jedi Order would want someone like that? Or something like that. Course, there may have been other things as well.

[EnderAndrew]

There are so many things we don't know.

 

First off, it seems that the Jedi Council is either no more, or scattered and in hiding. Why is this? Was the victory in KOTOR pointless? How have the Sith so quickly risen to power again?

 

What if the Jedi Council was manipulated by the Sith? Convince the Jedi to retrain Revan, rather than kill him. Use him as a tool to take down the fool Malak. In the mean time, while the Jedi are all concerned about the Star Forge, the Dark Lords of the Sith emerge from the shadows and strike while Revan and Bastilla are away.

 

Malak was a patsy to get Revan and Bastilla out of the way.

 

(Light Side Revan)

Bastilla goes ballistic, and tries to take on the new Dark Lords, and dies trying. Revan is shook by the death of his love, and goes off into solitude, torn between wanting revenge, and wanting to not embrace the Dark Side. After all, it was Revan's insistance that their love was a strength to them, nor a hinderance that would lead to the Dark Side. By embracing the Dark Side, he proves Bastilla's fears right.

 

(Dark Side Revan)

Seeing a potential shift of power in the Galaxy, and being the arrogant hussy that Bastilla can be, she challenges Revan for power in proper Sith fashion, but dies trying. Revan forsees that the other Dark Lords will seek him out, and seek his destruction just like Bastilla did.

 

If the the new MC tries to restore the Jedi Order, Revan makes a cameo and tries to dissuade the new MC, saying that the Jedi Order served as pawns to the Sith before, and likely it would occur again. The warring between the two factions has brought untold death to the galaxy, and continuing said battle will only bring more death and destruction.

 

The best thing for the Galaxy, is stability regardless of the ruling party. If the Jedi believed in their so-called tenets, they wouldn't seek out war regardless of the enemy.

[Indalecio]

The best thing for the Galaxy, is stability regardless of the ruling party. If the Jedi believed in their so-called tenets, they wouldn't seek out war regardless of the enemy.

But could the Sith bring that stability? I somehow doubt that. With so large a former Republic to rule, you'd have various Sith out there trying to carve out there own little micro-empires. There'd be plots and wars, and with possibly one or two emergring victorious. Then the old leaders would die and the process would begin anew. If you pay attention to EU, look what happened once Palpatine died. Various warlords like Zinj(sp?), Iceheart, Thrawn tried to grab power. Countless lives were lost, and all over the ambitions of a few influencial people.

 

If the the new MC tries to restore the Jedi Order, Revan makes a cameo and tries to dissuade the new MC, saying that the Jedi Order served as pawns to the Sith before, and likely it would occur again. The warring between the two factions has brought untold death to the galaxy, and continuing said battle will only bring more death and destruction.

 

Well, if that was the case, it wasn't the Jedi Order who were pawns of the Sith, but Revan himself. It was originally the Jedi Order who tried to disuade Revan and others from going.

[EnderAndrew]

I'm not saying that I personally believe the Sith would bring stability.

 

I'm thinking it would be an interesting turn if Revan showed up to dissaude you in your quest, as the voice of a disillusioned former pawn.

 

Futhermore, I think the player should have to consider the rammifications of constant killing in whatever they supposedly believe in. What is it really accomplishing?

 

Is the galaxy better for it? These are questions that should be asked in the game, but it should still be up to the player to answer them. KOTOR forced you to pretty much go along a strictly preset path of being Dudley Do-Right, or a being a childish thug.

[Gorth]

Gorth:

"Somebody once said something to the effect, that there was only seven movie themes."

 

I'm going to guess that this "somebody" was your elementary school English teacher. Does "Man versus Man, Man versus Woman, Man verses Nature, Man verses Community, Man verses Fate, Man verse Self, and Man verses the Supernatural," sound familiar?

[EnderAndrew]

Also consider, that you start the game with the Ebon Hawk, Revan's ship.

 

Is it pure coincidence that the ship was ditched, or did Revan leave it for you?

[Jurgenaut]

My take on revans situation...

 

Lightside (male or female):

Revan, the hero... Revan, the prodigal knight. Revan, the servant of light rather than master of darkness.

Everyone keep referring to you as Revan, while you don't understand why. You aren't Revan anymore. There is nothing glorious in being turned from the dark side if it isn't voluntarily.

Dreams begin to haunt you at night. You hear whispers of ambition within your soul. The real Revan personality, lost when the Jedi Council erased it, is returning. Your mind becomes the battleground between your good spirit and the revan personality, and you're slipping further and further into madness.

Not wanting to lose control around the people you love, you leave for the outer rim, burning your starship at some habitable planetoid.

Little did you know that Bastila (or Carth, depending on gender) followed you out of love, wanting to help you.

 

Then either

* When Bastila/Carth arrive, you have already lost the inner duel. Revan slays her/him and claims her starship, free to roam the galaxy once more.

 

or

*You and bastila have an emotional reunion, and she says that if you ever leave her again, she'll kill you. Her presence is the rope of love you hold on to, allowing you to keep the Revan personality in check.

 

 

The Dark side.. (not as grand)

Your new apprentice Darth Nihilus gathers support amongst the sith, and tries to have you killed. He fails to kill you, but you are severely injured. Bastila drags you on board a vessel, and you both travel to some outer rim world to heal. While there, you catch rumors of the next Armageddon Machine of the Week, something you just have to have under your control.

[EnderAndrew]

Next week, on Days of Our Jedi....

 

You discover that Carth knocked up Bastilla, and Revan kills everyone involved, except you discover that it was Carth's evil twin brother, and not Carth.

 

Revan is torn between desire for revenge, and sorrow for accidentally killing Carth.

 

Carth haters pester Revan, and egg him on more, so he decides to retreat to the far corner of the Galaxy.

[Indalecio]

Edit: As for the Title. it could refer to some resurrected original Sith lords...

Not only that. Revan and Malak's were probably not the only band of Sith out there. Afterall, Revan and Malak weren't really Sith, just Jedi gone Dark. They probably had no Sith training, just what they discovered on their own. There were probably real Sith out there, and with the Republic in shambles, they used what resources they had access to to seize power.

[GhostofAnakin]

Some interesting speculation so far. One thing I'd like to comment on though. I hope Obsidian really takes care in not diminishing the events at the end of KOTOR1. In that, I mean I hope they're careful about how they explain the events that took place during the 5 years since the end of KOTOR1 and the beginning of KOTOR2.

 

For instance, the LS ending made it seem like Revan saved the day. He won the battle, and everything in the Republic was just peachy. I hope Obsidian comes up with a viable reason why, 5 years later, this peace and harmony supposedly brought on by Revan being redeemed and destroying Malak and the Star Forge is suddenly in chaos again. Yes, 5 years is a long time, but the image I got of the victory at the end of KOTOR was akin to the Allies victory at WWII. So unless it's explained carefully how the Republic went into shambles in 5 years, it'd be like the Germans just recovered for a couple of years, then 5 years after the end of WWII they took over the world. So hopefully the in-game explanation is a valid one so that it doesn't completely disregard everything you accomplished if you won the game as a LS player.

 

Now the DS ending can be just as difficult to explain, and hopefully will be done just a thoroughly. At the end of KOTOR, Revan was basically "the man". He reclaimed his spot as the Sith Lord, and judging by the ending, the Sith seemed to follow him. So now Obsidian has the task of explaining why, 5 years later, apparently Revan's hold on the title of Sith Lord has disappeared, and in his place there are Sith Lord(s), and Revan has gone off to the Unknown Regions. Perhaps he and Malak left an armada of ships out there when they first disappeared? Who knows. I just hope it's explained well in KOTOR2.

 

In my opinion, how Obsidian (in-game of course) explains the events of the 5 years between the two games is actually MORE important than much of the actual storyline of the second game, in that the 5 year gap is what will determine whether continuity is either maintained or completely screwed up.

[sickboycp]

I just hope it isn't what typically is considered a 'twist' in most cRPGs... 'the NPC whom you thought was loyal turns out to be an Assassin sent to hinder your progress/kill you' (see Yoshimo in BGII; Vollinger in Arcanum etc) I'll be happy.

 

 

Though it could be interesting if it were the PCs love interest...

[Indalecio]

Now the DS ending can be just as difficult to explain, and hopefully will be done just a thoroughly. At the end of KOTOR, Revan was basically "the man". He reclaimed his spot as the Sith Lord, and judging by the ending, the Sith seemed to follow him. So now Obsidian has the task of explaining why, 5 years later, apparently Revan's hold on the title of Sith Lord has disappeared, and in his place there are Sith Lord(s), and Revan has gone off to the Unknown Regions. Perhaps he and Malak left an armada of ships out there when they first disappeared? Who knows. I just hope it's explained well in KOTOR2.

Hmm..maybe Malak had a deadman switch or some other safeguard that would've made claiming the StarForge after his defeat a bittersweat victory. I'am betting the Star Forge came with at least a self-destruct switch. So the Star Forge blows up, or in some other way is rendered unusable. Revan still has the ships the Star Forge pumped out, he could still fight the Republic, but he doesn't really have the resources he needs for a full-out campaign. The Republic is still hurting at the moment as well. So along come a bunch of Sith which are not in Revan's camp, and wham! Both sides are smashed.

[Guest Dante Qel-Droma]

The twist could be about the Dark Lord and not the created character. The Dark Lord could be Bastila Shan. Maybe, but I don't really think so. It was brought up on the BioWare forums. Besides, the Dark Lord looks like a male anyway. But it would kind of be interesting to finally have a female Dark Lord. I can't really think of a proper twist that would fit in to KOTOR 2's story as of yet. If there even will be a twist....