Journalism and sexism in the games industry

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

"GTA hookers are NOT real people. Don't be delusional."

 

[Volourn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d6nRUBKdB4

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Volorun wins the thread.

[BruceVC]

 

 

-snip-

 

I'm not sure I'm explaining my point properly, I try through a series of questions.

 

Do you think hookers are victims of abuse in RL?

As someone who is not a prostitute myself, nor do I closely know anyone who is a prostitute, I don't feel I can adequately make that judgement.  I would guess that some are, maybe even many or most, but, unlike SJWs, I don't like to speak for other people and make assumptions for them.  I can make guesses, but that's the best I can do.

 

Also I don't think we will ever agree on this point because you are fine, and would even like to see, children that can be killed in games. That type of perspective is just foreign to me and its hard to debate something when you can't really get why anyone would want that ?

Just because it's possible to kill someone in a game doesn't mean you have to do it.  Beyond the first hour or so of me playing GTA 3, way back in the day, and experimenting with the game to see how far the game would let you go, more out of curiosity than anything else, I've generally tried to avoid killing civilians, going so far as to drive carefully to not run people over unless it's a time sensitive mission and I am forced to drive like a maniac, and I certainly don't target specific varieties of civilians.  If I wanted to, I could go around and only kill Hispanic looking people.  I don't, but I could, the game allows for that.  Similarly, if the game included children I could specifically go around and kill children.  I wouldn't, but I would not have a problem with the option being there.  

 

GTA, while satire, attempts to portray a somewhat realistic society, touch on real issues, and do it in at least a somewhat realistic manner (as opposed to something like Saints Row which is almost as far removed from realistic as possible), in an effort to make social commentary.  If you want to portray a somewhat realistic society and make social commentary you need to portray all of it.  You can't shy away from the squeamish stuff or the distasteful stuff.  Squeamish stuff and distasteful stuff exists in real life, it affects real people and is a part of real issues.

 

GTA is a game, a sandbox, that allows you to play in a variety of ways.  If you want to play as a savage psychopath, you can.  You can also try to play as someone who is trying to do good and stay out of trouble, but gets dragged into situations where they have no choice but to do horrible things.  That is your choice as a player.  I also believe, and I'm not a developer on the game, so this is purely speculation on my part, grain of salt and all that, that Rockstar tries in its games to relay some of the horrors of crime in its games and speak about the sacrifices (whether in loved ones or ones own sanity) people make when they descend down the dark path of crime.  (In this sense, I think Sleeping Dogs did a much better job of conveying the horrors of crime and the inner conflict of the person having to do horrible things to survive and move up in the hierarchy).

 

Killing children is terrible, but it happens in real life too.  How you react to killing children in a game is up to you.  Would some people revel in it?  Potentially yes.  It could also serve to horrify the player and make them despair over the horrible thing that happened because of the crimes they've committed.  If children were in the game, as they are in real life, then whether you go out and kill children in the game is up to you and how you react to it is dependent upon you.  It's your choice.  I'm pro-choice.

 

 

Firstly I'm sorry, I can't respond to every single person who disagrees with me on the point I made which was " after reading that article I think killing of hookers in GTA should be removed"

 

I'll try respond to some people but I would be typing all  day if I responded to everyone. I want to make some general comments before I respond to Keyrock

 

  So firstly you wouldn't be able to just make the hookers " un-killable " because it would make the overall gaming experience  unrealistic. GTA prides itself on the fact you can kill every single person so in fact I am suggesting they remove hookers from GTA. Yes that means you wont be able to have sex with them but is that such a big deal from a gameplay perspective?

 

I can hear people  now "look at these SJW wanting to change everything " ...but no this is not one of those examples. There is nothing else I can think of that would ever warrant been removed from the GTA world. So you can still play the game and go a killing sprees...nothing else would change

 

Now the argument, " but GTA is a crime game, hookers are a realistic part of that world". Yes that is correct but is  it really realistic as we don't see male prostitutes or children that can be killed. So for some reason Rockstar only allows you to kill female hookers? Doesn't this seem weird to you if it was suppose to be realistic crime game world?

 

Now the question " are Hookers victims " , this was the question I asked Keyrock

 

This is a question that is nuanced and can be complex. I have known in my life  and do know several people who are hookers\escorts. When you chat to them outside there work environment none of them have ever said to me "I really like my job, its fulfilling and rewarding "

 

People become hookers for several reasons, sometimes they are direct victims of trafficking. Sometimes they are victims of pimps, sometime they are drug users. Mostly its for the money and survival. But I have never met a hooker who is happy with her work. And  all of them are victims in some way of society, they do it to survive. They are victims of there profession

 

The hotdog man is not a victim, he has a normal job and can really enjoy his job if he wants

 

So that's the obvious difference between a hooker and most other jobs

 

@ Keyrock

 

I'm glad you explained what you meant by killable children. I always consider you  a reasonable person and I though your almost strange indifference to wanting to kill children in a game was out of character. But you have explained your point and I now understand what you meant

[kirottu]

Gamergate controversy cost Gawker Media "seven figures" in lost advertising revenue, according to company's head of advertising Andrew Gorenstein.

 

^ I didn't see this linked in here. Feels good man.

 

Here's another Polygon piece defending banning of GTA V. Apparently this is important enough for them to make another statement about it.

 

Here's Polygon giving 9.5/10 to GTA V a year ago.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

So GG cost Gawker at least a million? Good, couldn't have happened to a better site.

 

In related news, SOPA2 might pass.

[kirottu]

I've heard a lot of comparisons between the desire of video game censorship and the Comics Code Authority. Any thoughts on that, my fellow ****lords?

 

Oh and then there's this: http://branch.com/b/gamergate-debate-video-games-free-speech-misogyny

 

Text conversation so a bit hard to read.

Wow. Just wow. It's almost amazing how crazy authoritarian the hardcore anti-GG people are. I'm pretty sure that scared some neutrals to our side like it seems to happen every time.

[Meshugger]

Gamergate controversy cost Gawker Media "seven figures" in lost advertising revenue, according to company's head of advertising Andrew Gorenstein.

 

^ I didn't see this linked in here. Feels good man.

 

Here's another Polygon piece defending banning of GTA V. Apparently this is important enough for them to make another statement about it.

 

Here's Polygon giving 9.5/10 to GTA V a year ago.

 

Ohpleasepleaseplease start burning. Satan's castle cannot be destroyed soon enough.

 

KaineParker: I heard that as well, please start a new thread about that if you haven't already.

[BruceVC]

 

Firstly I'm sorry, I can't respond to every single person who disagrees with me on the point I made which was " after reading that article I think killing of hookers in GTA should be removed"

 

I'll try respond to some people but I would be typing all  day if I responded to everyone. I want to make some general comments before I respond to Keyrock

 

  So firstly you wouldn't be able to just make the hookers " un-killable " because it would make the overall gaming experience  unrealistic. GTA prides itself on the fact you can kill every single person so in fact I am suggesting they remove hookers from GTA. Yes that means you wont be able to have sex with them but is that such a big deal from a gameplay perspective?

 

I can hear people  now "look at these SJW wanting to change everything " ...but no this is not one of those examples. There is nothing else I can think of that would ever warrant been removed from the GTA world. So you can still play the game and go a killing sprees...nothing else would change.

Let's take away your right to vote. Nothing else change! You can do so much in the world, voting is only a very, very small portion of your life. It;s insignificant. So you can still live your life and do everything you want.

 

That is basically your line of argument. When you want to forcefully remove something it's never "only this" it's "THIS!" always.

 

Now the question " are Hookers victims " , this was the question I asked Keyrock

 

This is a question that is nuanced and can be complex. I have known in my life  and do know several people who are hookers\escorts. When you chat to them outside there work environment none of them have ever said to me "I really like my job, its fulfilling and rewarding "

 

People become hookers for several reasons, sometimes they are direct victims of trafficking. Sometimes they are victims of pimps, sometime they are drug users. Mostly its for the money and survival. But I have never met a hooker who is happy with her work. And  all of them are victims in some way of society, they do it to survive. They are victims of there profession

 

The hotdog man is not a victim, he has a normal job and can really enjoy his job if he wants

 

So that's the obvious difference between a hooker and most other jobs

So, basically hookers are the same as ANY low payed job in the world.

I never, ever met a person who would enjoy their job and say "I really like my job, its fulfilling and rewarding ".

Nobody who have a normal boring job says that!

Only a very small percentage of people who have exciting job with good salary say those things. Majority never.

 

 

I don't see how removing your right to vote is the same as removing hookers from the GTA game? I don't see the similarity ?

 

No the job and expectation of what a hooker does is not the same as any other low paid job, unless you have sex with your office  cleaners or with the local waitress at your local restaurant and you pay them?

 

I am surprised you are even trying to compare the types of jobs ?

[HoonDing]

I killed pimps & hookers in Saint's Row with **** bat.

[Longknife]

You can kill hookers in Fallout New Vegas. It gives you unique clothes for doing so that can only be gotten by killing them. And the game makes it overtly clear those hookers are being hella exploited.

 

 

DUN DUN DUUUUNN!!!

Edited December 12, 2014 by Longknife

[Meshugger]

What i have learned from the last couple of pages is that choice of labor on imaginary characters is of great importance in game design. So important that people should censor themselves during the creation process.

[BruceVC]

I killed pimps & hookers in Saint's Row with **** bat.

 

Okay I believe you, but that has nothing to do with the point that hookers can and should be removed from the GTA game design ?

[Meshugger]

 

I killed pimps & hookers in Saint's Row with **** bat.

 

Okay I believe you, but that has nothing to do with the point that hookers can and should be removed from the GTA game design ?

 

 

You are truly hopeless. Ask yourself why game design should have "problamatic" or "toxic" elements that should be "removed" to begin with. Why should the creation process of the designer be decided on the whims of someone else outside that process?

 

The only correct answer is it shouldn't, unless you do not believe in freedom of expression. Then you are excused.

 

//edit:

 

Edited December 12, 2014 by Meshugger

[BruceVC]

 

 

I killed pimps & hookers in Saint's Row with **** bat.

 

Okay I believe you, but that has nothing to do with the point that hookers can and should be removed from the GTA game design ?

 

 

You are truly hopeless. Ask yourself why game design should have "problamatic" or "toxic" elements that should be "removed" to begin with. Why should the creation process of the designer be decided on the whims of someone else outside that process?

 

The only correct answer is it shouldn't, unless you do not believe in freedom of expression. Then you are excused.

 

 

This is the same spurious argument you guys keep making in the objection to my suggestion and that article

 

Its a not a question of " creative process"  because as far as hookers are concerned in the GTA world there are only female hookers

 

So how is that creative, its not. Its selective and it will make no difference to your GTA experience if you remove hookers from the game?

 

How could that possibly effect your gaming experience, it baffles me all this resistance to a reasonable suggestion. So now the onus on you is to tell me why this would fundamentally change how you play GTA?

 

All this disagreement from you guys is obviously a knee-jerk reaction because you see this as " SJW trying to change my gaming experience " 

 

And its not, nothing in GTA will change except for the fact you won't see hookers anymore

[Namutree]

 

 

And its not, nothing in GTA will change except for the fact you won't see hookers anymore

 

The scummy atmosphere is a major part of GTA's appeal. Take out the hookers and you lose the game's dark appeal to an extent. 

 

EDIT: I just want to say, I f**king hate GTA. They're so overrated.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Namutree

[BruceVC]

 

I don't see how removing your right to vote is the same as removing hookers from the GTA game? I don't see the similarity ?

Similarity is in the process of taking. There is no difference WHAT you take he implications are the same.

 

No the job and expectation of what a hooker does is not the same as any other low paid job, unless you have sex with your office  cleaners or with the local waitress at your local restaurant and you pay them?

 

I am surprised you are even trying to compare the types of jobs ?

No one talked the job is the same. The waiter and welder have different jobs, yet both say they hate their job and neither would tell their job is "fulfilling and rewarding ".

Which was your point, that hookers don't like their job and are not proud of what they do.

You said that this applies only to them, but in reality the same can be said about any job, which was my point.

In that regard there is no difference between prostitution and any other occupation.

 

 

You have misunderstood me completely, I'll explain it one more time

 

The issue is not that hookers don't like there jobs in RL and that's why they should be removed from  GTA. Many people don't like there jobs, that's not the point

 

The point is hookers are victims by the nature of there job, there are very few other professions where this applies to

 

And by allowing them to be killed in a game like GTA you are just making the overall reality of there situation worse.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

And its not, nothing in GTA will change except for the fact you won't see hookers anymore

 

The scummy atmosphere is a major part of GTA's appeal. Take out the hookers and you lose the game's dark appeal to an extent. 

 

 

Really? I have played GTA extensively and I can't believe that will change the dark appeal of the game  because the implementation of hookers is only on some streets and at night

 

But I'm glad you have least responded with one possible reason how removing hookers will degrade the game because most people  seem unable  to do this and I've the question several times

[Longknife]

 

I killed pimps & hookers in Saint's Row with **** bat.

 

Okay I believe you, but that has nothing to do with the point that hookers can and should be removed from the GTA game design ?

 

 

 

It has quite a bit to do with it, as there is nothing exclusive to GTA V and hookers. The argument is that hookers are marginalized victims and do not need to be mocked and disposed of in a video game. Saint's Row and Fallout New Vegas both have disposable hookers, so shouldn't they also be censored?

[TrashMan]

 

I killed pimps & hookers in Saint's Row with **** bat.

 

Okay I believe you, but that has nothing to do with the point that hookers can and should be removed from the GTA game design ?

 

 

To quote you:

"So firstly you wouldn't be able to just make the hookers " un-killable " because it would make the overall gaming experience  unrealistic."

 

Explain to me how a simulated city devoid of hookers is realistic? You can't argue for and against realism in the same damn paragraph. Except you can apparently.

 

Do you really have any argument for removal of hookers other than "I don't like it"?

Seriously.

 

 

 

Its a not a question of " creative process"  because as far as hookers are concerned in the GTA world there are only female hookers

So how is that creative, its not. Its selective and it will make no difference to your GTA experience if you remove hookers from the game?

 

What would it change if there were male hookers too?

What has that have to do with artistic freedom or the creative process?

 

Neither are defined by your taste OR approval.

 

 

 

 

All this disagreement from you guys is obviously a knee-jerk reaction because you see this as " SJW trying to change my gaming experience "

 

Except that is exactly what you're trying to do. Force a global change to conform to your tastes.

[Namutree]

 

The point is hookers are victims by the nature of there job, there are very few other professions where this applies to

 

And by allowing them to be killed in a game like GTA you are just making the overall reality of there situation worse.

 

Both of these are wrong.

 

Not all hookers are victims of any sort. Some women actually enjoy it.

 

Even if they were; having hookers in video games means absolutely nothing in the real world.

[Chilloutman]

I don't see how removing your right to vote is the same as removing hookers from the GTA game? I don't see the similarity ?

 

No the job and expectation of what a hooker does is not the same as any other low paid job, unless you have sex with your office  cleaners or with the local waitress at your local restaurant and you pay them?

 

I am surprised you are even trying to compare the types of jobs ?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

Please, Bruce tell me, who will decide what is ok and what is not for game? PLEASE

[BruceVC]

 

 

I killed pimps & hookers in Saint's Row with **** bat.

 

Okay I believe you, but that has nothing to do with the point that hookers can and should be removed from the GTA game design ?

 

 

 

It has quite a bit to do with it, as there is nothing exclusive to GTA V and hookers. The argument is that hookers are marginalized victims and do not need to be mocked and disposed of in a video game. Saint's Row and Fallout New Vegas both have disposable hookers, so shouldn't they also be censored?

 

 

Yes this is my argument in essence, I'm glad you understand it

 

And I'll be honest I don't know how to respond when it comes  to those games, because you could also go a killing spree in those games. So now are we suggesting we remove hookers from all games? I agree this doesn't sound practical  because the implementation of hookers in F:NV made sense in the game world in  the city of NV.

 

But to be fair there were male hookers in NV so it was much more realistic?

[BruceVC]

 

I don't see how removing your right to vote is the same as removing hookers from the GTA game? I don't see the similarity ?

 

No the job and expectation of what a hooker does is not the same as any other low paid job, unless you have sex with your office  cleaners or with the local waitress at your local restaurant and you pay them?

 

I am surprised you are even trying to compare the types of jobs ?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

Please, Bruce tell me, who will decide what is ok and what is not for game? PLEASE

 

 

Its not my suggestion, I am merely supporting article that Malc posted

[Longknife]

But to be fair there were male hookers in NV so it was much more realistic?

 

 

'TF planet do you live on...?