BruceVC Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 it is true that you don't get it, but it likely ain't your fault. what you call free speech, isn't. sorry, but you haven't bothered to learn the differences 'tween US freedom and yours. hmmm. probably easiest to provide a link http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-11254419 to folks in the USA, we realize that it is the speech that offends that is requiring protection. simply because we, the majority, dislike or even loathe the message, does not mean that we should limit the speaker. "those who won our independence by revolution were not cowards. they did not fear political change. they did not exalt order at the cost of liberty. to courageous, self-reliant men, with confidence in the power of free and fearless reasoning applied through the processes of popular government, no danger flowing from speech can be deemed clear and present unless the incidence of the evil apprehended is so imminent that it may befall before there is opportunity for full discussion. if there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence." you don't get it. HA! Good Fun! Wait. How is my free speech not like yours? In fact i can say what the **** i want, about what the **** i want without less restritcitons than you do, without fearing a goverment agent knocking on my door. I can tell a police officer to **** off with out getting arrested. ****, you are living in a police state that can bring you into prison without much of an offense. I think you are being ironic but i can´t tell, because your link is useless and doesn´t prove anything. :> Really? Here in the Netherlands, it's a crime to insult public servants like police officers. I'm also not allowed to publish anything insulting regarding the royal monarchs. Which is a good thing considering how rude you Dutch can be And please dont say this is something you actually want to do ? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartimaeus Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) And please dont say this is something you actually want to do ? It doesn't have to be something you "actually want to do" for it to be something you want to be ABLE to do if you don't think royalty should be any more exempt from insults than the regular joe (or if you can envision a scenario...or if there's actually been one already...where it seemed appropriate for you to do so). Edited July 9, 2015 by Bartimaeus Quote How I have existed fills me with horror. For I have failed in everything - spelling, arithmetic, riding, tennis, golf; dancing, singing, acting; wife, mistress, whore, friend. Even cooking. And I do not excuse myself with the usual escape of 'not trying'. I tried with all my heart. In my dreams, I am not crippled. In my dreams, I dance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blarghagh Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 I've actually done both already. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 And please dont say this is something you actually want to do ? It doesn't have to be something you "actually want to do" for it to be something you want to be ABLE to do if you don't think royalty should be any more exempt from insults than the regular joe (or if you can envision a scenario...or if there's actually been one already...where it seemed appropriate for you to do so). Nah, that's just some pseudo-justification for people who don't want to be civil and maintain a level of decorum Both those things should be banned in the interest of a more peaceful environment. If people can't live without insulting policemen or the Dutch royalty than they should just immigrate I've actually done both already. You .......you....anarchist "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartimaeus Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) Nah, that's just some pseudo-justification for people who don't want to be civil and maintain a level of decorum Both those things should be banned in the interest of a more peaceful environment. If people can't live without insulting policemen or the Dutch royalty than they should just immigrate LOL R00fles! Edited July 9, 2015 by Bartimaeus Quote How I have existed fills me with horror. For I have failed in everything - spelling, arithmetic, riding, tennis, golf; dancing, singing, acting; wife, mistress, whore, friend. Even cooking. And I do not excuse myself with the usual escape of 'not trying'. I tried with all my heart. In my dreams, I am not crippled. In my dreams, I dance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Just sowing some seeds here: 2 "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 Just sowing some seeds here: I don't think you can really control that...what would be the definition of " lively debate " The more reasonable solution is simply to just prohibit certain topics or words but not in a draconian way. Like these forums are moderated "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 lol 3 "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 lol Meshugger you thrive on this website, I can't think of why you would want to make yourself more depraved? You'll be happy in my world, trust me "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfted1 Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 All pedophiles, Gfted1? Did you mean all active pedophiles, or actually any and everyone who happens to feel attraction to children? That's a interesting question. Active pedo's? Of course. Inactive pedo's? Hmm, that's a tough thought experiment. An "inactive" pedo hasn't actually acted on the impulses but only thought about it? We cant prosecute thought crime and I wouldn't want to. Now if an "inactive" pedo somehow insinuated that they were attracted to my kid, but "would never do anything", they would probably still get a knuckle sandwich. Im a flawed human being. 3 "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartimaeus Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) Funny, after I posted that, I had an idle thought: "Wonder if he's a dad..." Regardless, that's fair enough. I don't think any pedophile, active or inactive, would ever say anything like that, though: would be totally weird and unsettling for all parties involved. Much more likely, they don't tell you and you never know. Edited July 9, 2015 by Bartimaeus Quote How I have existed fills me with horror. For I have failed in everything - spelling, arithmetic, riding, tennis, golf; dancing, singing, acting; wife, mistress, whore, friend. Even cooking. And I do not excuse myself with the usual escape of 'not trying'. I tried with all my heart. In my dreams, I am not crippled. In my dreams, I dance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amentep Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 You just have a different approache, instead of legal, it´s public shaming, say something against the wars the US have started in the last 50 years...you are probalby, anti-american etc, and will be shamed into ground. Or elected to public office as a Democrat. 2 I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot! ~ Ro-Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 Funny, after I posted that, I had an idle thought: "Wonder if he's a dad..." Regardless, that's fair enough. I don't think any pedophile, active or inactive, would ever say anything like that, though: would be totally weird and unsettling for all parties involved. Much more likely, they don't tell you and you never know. Barti you seem nervous about something....do you have some sexual deviancy you feel you need to share with us ? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganrich Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 lol Meshugger you thrive on this website, I can't think of why you would want to make yourself more depraved? You'll be happy in my world, trust me I think most of us that disagree with you on a regular basis on these forums are pretty copasetic in not drinkIng Jim Jones' magical elixir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartimaeus Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Barti you seem nervous about something....do you have some sexual deviancy you feel you need to share with us ? R00fles! Quote How I have existed fills me with horror. For I have failed in everything - spelling, arithmetic, riding, tennis, golf; dancing, singing, acting; wife, mistress, whore, friend. Even cooking. And I do not excuse myself with the usual escape of 'not trying'. I tried with all my heart. In my dreams, I am not crippled. In my dreams, I dance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 lolMeshugger you thrive on this website, I can't think of why you would want to make yourself more depraved? You'll be happy in my world, trust me I think most of us that disagree with you on a regular basis on these forums are pretty copasetic in not drinkIng Jim Jones' magical elixir. lolMeshugger you thrive on this website, I can't think of why you would want to make yourself more depraved? You'll be happy in my world, trust me I think most of us that disagree with you on a regular basis on these forums are pretty copasetic in not drinkIng Jim Jones' magical elixir. Yes but I would obviously think of you guys and what entertains you, my world would be full of really annoying and pushy feminists and SJ warriors that keep making you feel guilty and then end up really embarrassing themselves and or completely contradicting themselves "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 I don't think you can really control that...what would be the definition of " lively debate " The more reasonable solution is simply to just prohibit certain topics or words but not in a draconian way. Like these forums are moderated Ok, how do you do that in a non-draconian way ? Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blarghagh Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Non-draconion like this forum? Our leader pretends to be a dragon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Oh, thought he was advising that for the world at large. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 I don't think you can really control that...what would be the definition of " lively debate " The more reasonable solution is simply to just prohibit certain topics or words but not in a draconian way. Like these forums are moderated Ok, how do you do that in a non-draconian way ? Well yes you are correct the reality of non-draconian is subjective And when I say " my world " I mean a really popular forum that is very busy that I was in charge of So I would have the same rules as this forum, I wouldn't ban anyone because I feel even the controversial people like Oby add balance and to be honest I can't recall meeting anyone on these forums that warranted banning? I have never understood why some people really get annoyed by Oby...he is too much of a exaggeration to be taken seriously, you can't get angry with someone who you don't really know. It lacks conviction for me. Plus sometimes his theories make me really laugh as they are so bizarre. Remember that one about the lost tribe of Caucasians living in the mountains somewhere But I wouldn't allow posts of a similar nature that luzarius created about how the LGBT community destroyed Bioware because I see this as subtle hate speech I wouldn't have the "hot girls thread " but there would be a dedicated " Adult Section " that caters for all tastes But otherwise all other forum content would be acceptable "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) You just have a different approache, instead of legal, it´s public shaming, say something against the wars the US have started in the last 50 years...you are probalby, anti-american etc, and will be shamed into ground. Or elected to public office as a Democrat. <cue rimshot> is (not) worth noting that in a poll conducted by nobody reputable, fully 1/2 of american democrats would support a limit on hate speech. democrats. *snort* in any event, we will observe that our most frequent disappointment regarding free speech is not that bigots and lunatics get to spew hate freely but rather that most americans do not use their speech rights to respond to the villains. americans, while less passive than most, is far too willing to stand idly by while their fellow human beings is tormented by evil men. there ain't no active duty to respond to hate, but surely there is a moral obligation to do so. we all too often see americans fail to live up to such obligations. we wait for a hand-picked collection o' pundits to gather in a climate-controlled tv studio, miles and days removed from any actual bigotry and hate, to calmly debate the the issues facing american society. three minutes o' quasi-scripted dialectic ensues before the inevitable commercial break. are your clothes as clean as they can be? matthew mcconaughey drives a lincoln, and so should you. sitting at home, having watched the battle o' tin knights with paper swords, we cheer democracy and free speech and america. hurrah. HA! Good Fun! Edited July 9, 2015 by Gromnir 1 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 You just have a different approache, instead of legal, it´s public shaming, say something against the wars the US have started in the last 50 years...you are probalby, anti-american etc, and will be shamed into ground. Or elected to public office as a Democrat. <cue rimshot> is (not) worth noting that in a poll conducted by nobody reputable, fully 1/2 of american democrats would support a limit on hate speech. democrats. *snort* in any event, we will observe that our most frequent disappointment regarding free speech is not that bigots and lunatics get to spew hate freely but rather that most americans do not use their speech rights to respond to the villains. americans, while less passive than most, is far too willing to stand idly by while their fellow human beings is tormented by evil men. there ain't no active duty to respond to hate, but surely there is a moral obligation to do so. we all too often see americans fail to live up to such obligations. we wait for a pundits to gather in a climate-controlled tv studio, miles and days removed from any actual bigotry and hate, to calmly debate the the issues facing american society. three minutes o' quasi-scripted dialectic ensues before the inevitable commercial break. are your clothes as clean as they can be? matthew mcconaughey drives a lincoln, and so should you. sitting at home, having watched the battle o' tin knights with paper swords, we cheer democracy and free speech and america. hurrah. HA! Good Fun! You see Gromnir you are in a very fortunate position to be able to intellectualize hate speech so you defend its usage even though you don't like it I live in a country where we haven't got to that point yet and people are very much effected by words . So we ban hate speech and certain words and its makes perfect sense The truth is certain words do matter and truly hurt some people in a palpable and psychological way. So why allow them? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) Truth hurts and should be banned. It's better manufacture a truth that corresponds to imaginary ideals. Edited July 9, 2015 by Meshugger "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) You just have a different approache, instead of legal, it´s public shaming, say something against the wars the US have started in the last 50 years...you are probalby, anti-american etc, and will be shamed into ground. Or elected to public office as a Democrat. <cue rimshot> is (not) worth noting that in a poll conducted by nobody reputable, fully 1/2 of american democrats would support a limit on hate speech. democrats. *snort* in any event, we will observe that our most frequent disappointment regarding free speech is not that bigots and lunatics get to spew hate freely but rather that most americans do not use their speech rights to respond to the villains. americans, while less passive than most, is far too willing to stand idly by while their fellow human beings is tormented by evil men. there ain't no active duty to respond to hate, but surely there is a moral obligation to do so. we all too often see americans fail to live up to such obligations. we wait for a pundits to gather in a climate-controlled tv studio, miles and days removed from any actual bigotry and hate, to calmly debate the the issues facing american society. three minutes o' quasi-scripted dialectic ensues before the inevitable commercial break. are your clothes as clean as they can be? matthew mcconaughey drives a lincoln, and so should you. sitting at home, having watched the battle o' tin knights with paper swords, we cheer democracy and free speech and america. hurrah. HA! Good Fun! You see Gromnir you are in a very fortunate position to be able to intellectualize hate speech so you defend its usage even though you don't like it I live in a country where we haven't got to that point yet and people are very much effected by words . So we ban hate speech and certain words and its makes perfect sense The truth is certain words do matter and truly hurt some people in a palpable and psychological way. So why allow them? ban hate speech does not stop hate. it is our belief that banning hate speech has a tendency to increase hate. regardless, ban hate speech does not in any way solve the larger problems that created the hate. open and vigorous debate at least has the possibility o' curing problems. also, what if the folks spewing hate is right? what if we label folks and history proves that they were correct. hell, maybe they is wrong, but if they can't speak because their message offends, how much speech is chilled? is not many decades past that american blacks marching and protesting were considered disruptive. why can't the homosexuals just use their votes to bring about change instead o' their silly parades? those folks who disagree with US foreign policy is clearly communists and we need to shut-em up and blacklist 'em and whatnot. HA! Good Fun! ps bruce is the one who is lucky. you got the opportunity to bring about real change at a time when it genuine matters. the other day, when the Court ruled in favor o' same-sex marriage, we saw folks cheering 'cause the Court had defended an "underrepresented minority from the tyranny o' the majority." is not the role o' the Court to be swayed by polls, but even bruce observed that the majority o' the US public is actual favoring same-sex marriage. were no tyranny by the majority. what we had were the Court being impatient with the indifference o' the majority... which hardly makes for a profound battle cry, eh? your problems in your country is open and notorious and raw, just as ours were not so long ago. in a sense, we envy you 'cause now is the time when you can bring about real change. by comparison, our social evils is massive and entrenched and largely kept to the shadows. example: blacks didn't get the same home ownership advantages decades ago, which has led to endemic wealth disparity. ok, fix that. fix it with a march on washington or protests? how? get it right. learn from mistakes and do it right. Gromnir is envious o' your opportunity. Edited July 9, 2015 by Gromnir 2 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 You just have a different approache, instead of legal, it´s public shaming, say something against the wars the US have started in the last 50 years...you are probalby, anti-american etc, and will be shamed into ground. Or elected to public office as a Democrat. <cue rimshot> is (not) worth noting that in a poll conducted by nobody reputable, fully 1/2 of american democrats would support a limit on hate speech. democrats. *snort* in any event, we will observe that our most frequent disappointment regarding free speech is not that bigots and lunatics get to spew hate freely but rather that most americans do not use their speech rights to respond to the villains. americans, while less passive than most, is far too willing to stand idly by while their fellow human beings is tormented by evil men. there ain't no active duty to respond to hate, but surely there is a moral obligation to do so. we all too often see americans fail to live up to such obligations. we wait for a pundits to gather in a climate-controlled tv studio, miles and days removed from any actual bigotry and hate, to calmly debate the the issues facing american society. three minutes o' quasi-scripted dialectic ensues before the inevitable commercial break. are your clothes as clean as they can be? matthew mcconaughey drives a lincoln, and so should you. sitting at home, having watched the battle o' tin knights with paper swords, we cheer democracy and free speech and america. hurrah. HA! Good Fun! You see Gromnir you are in a very fortunate position to be able to intellectualize hate speech so you defend its usage even though you don't like it I live in a country where we haven't got to that point yet and people are very much effected by words . So we ban hate speech and certain words and its makes perfect sense The truth is certain words do matter and truly hurt some people in a palpable and psychological way. So why allow them? ban hate speech does not stop hate. it is our belief that banning hate speech has a tendency to increase hate. regardless, ban hate speech does not in any way solve the larger problems that created the hate. open and vigorous debate at least has the possibility o' curing problems. also, what if the folks spewing hate is right? what if we label folks and history proves that they were correct. hell, maybe they is wrong, but if they can't speak because their message offends, how much speech is chilled? is not many decades past that american blacks marching and protesting were considered disruptive. why can't the homosexuals just use their votes to bring about change instead o' their silly parades? those folks who disagree with US foreign policy is clearly communists and we need to shut-em up and blacklist 'em and whatnot. HA! Good Fun! So this is the part you are misunderstanding and most Americans don't agree with it You right, banning hate speech doesn't stop hate speech. But I believe you can never stop some people discriminating...that's just the way the world is. There will always be someone who hates gays or gays or resents successful women But thats not our goal for me in South Africa, we just want to remove its usage from civil society so we don't have to hear it. This of course has other positive consequences of certain words becoming socially unacceptable and I promise you people just don't use them even in public Of course this positive effect doesn't resonate with everyone but as I said I am not concerned with bigots "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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