Thoughts from a casual gamer

[Sensuki]

There might be things that were bad or not optimal, but the fact is that most of them are worse in Pillars of Eternity.

[IndiraLightfoot]

There might be things that were bad or not optimal, but the fact is that most of them are worse in Pillars of Eternity.

And, may I add, most of them seem to be about the combat itself, as well as combat feedback, and a few UI issues. As for the story, the characters, the area grapics, the music, the sound FX, etc, it's very hard to tell. But it seems to be very promising from what I can tell from all their updates and the little BB.

[archangel979]

It was your choice to read the discussion, if you are not interested in it then go read something else.

 

You will also not dictate to me when and how I give feedback on the game.

 

Every post about the issue (for or against) has been helpful IMO and it is raising more and more awareness.

Or course I will not dictate it, but I am trying to tell you that you and others keep repeating same points page after page and that I consider most of that input useless as a result. Secondly OE currently does not care about our input on these issues and that also makes the input useless.

[Sensuki]

There might be things that were bad or not optimal, but the fact is that most of them are worse in Pillars of Eternity.

 

As much as I love BG1+2, (and PST, IWD1+2 not as much), there were indeed plenty of things that were bad:

-Pathfinding

Change Path Search Nodes to 40,000 and it's mostly fine. Particularly in BG2. Did you ever do that?

 

-The lack of item comparisons

Yes, although we had to request them for Pillars of Eternity, as this is a common UI improvement. The IE Item description page UI was still better, and more uniform with the rest of the UI.

 

-Inventory at times (although the invo shuffle is almost meditative in its own right)

Wasn't too bad with bottomless bag of holding [use mods]. I find PE inventory more clunky to use.

 

-More items should have been stackable

Use mods. It fixes this issue.

 

-BG2: Too linear, I preferred the sense of a more open world in BG1

PE will be more linear than BG1.

 

-BG2: Some of the maps were not very interesting (although very lovely graphically). Once again, I preferred, the  relative vastness of the BG1 outdoors

PE's wilderness areas are worse than BG1. I will be touching on why in my Codex Preview.

 

-I love all D&D except the 4th ed (which is tolerable), but still in my book: 3.5 > 3.0 > AD&D

I didn't think the 3E Implementation of IWD2 was very good.

 

-I actually prefer NWN2's AoO over the BG-games lack of it

Some people prefer stand still combat.

 

-It would have been nice for clearer UI feedback when it came to spellcasting and what area it would affect (but on the other hand, surprises are cool)

the pre-cast AoE for PE is a good idea, although a range finder would also be handy.

 

-Level 1 and 2 are far too RNG gods-dependent, which is the price to pay for turning D&D into a computer game

No they're not - if you build your character properly. Fighter with 18/xx STR, Specialization and a weapon he's specialized in has 14 THAC0 at level 1 - the content at level 1-2 is pretty easy with that. You can also cast spells like Bless to make it better.

 

-High level fights can become a bit dull and repetitive at times, not to mention too long in duration

I disagree, although I have a feeling a lot of that comes to how effective your character builds are

 

-It would have been cool if combat in IE had been terrain dependent, with elevation taken into account, etc

Not in the IE style.

 

-The fog of war and several weird abuses relating to that was not good (I'd like to see a CRPG with a line of sight system á la CoH2)

PE is no better / worse. FoW is currently not implemented properly, although at least enemies don't stand in cloudkills to die in PE.

 

-The variety of weapons and items vis-à-vis class and alignment was far too small and punishing in the non-EE versions

This is a matter of preference, but I do like that PE opens this up too.

 

-There should have been more ability checks, class checks, race checks, etc, for role-playing reasons

I think PE will have less class checks but more attribute, race and skill checks.

 

-Overall, the IE games didn't give enough sense of being lived in (Ultima VII did that much better, for instance)

Neither does PE ?

 

-Multiclassing could have been improved

PE has no multi-classing or cross-class stuff at all

 

]-As always, when certain classes went past level 9 or so, the character building ceased to be fun and eventful enough
-Thieves were in some respects a broken class (of course, disregarding IWD2 with 3.0 D&D

What? In the AD&D games you actually started getting HLA options past this point. Thief skills capped out at a certain point though.

 

I could go on and on and on for pages. There are oodles of stuff that were bad in the IE games, but they were certainly brilliant, anyways.
For PoE, I simply presumed that the seasoned Obsids would take the best stuff from the IE games and then create something even better.

]

 

But in most gameplay cases, they haven't.

 

Or course I will not dictate it, but I am trying to tell you that you and others keep repeating same points page after page and that I consider most of that input useless as a result. Secondly OE currently does not care about our input on these issues and that also makes the input useless.

No, let's have a look at the actual wording.

 

We have had a lock on new features since the beginning of last week and we have been focusing on bug fixes last week and this week. Any requested new feature gets placed on a list that we will evaluate in a couple of weeks.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Nice answers, Sensuki!

 

Nope. I never did enter that path node increase command.

 

And several of my "bad" points on BG1-BG2 definitely apply to NWN2 as well. In fact, the very best builds could become the ones that took the longest to use in combat (very good on defence - often cleric-based builds), so in NWN2, there were some awkward high-level moments.

 

Thing is, such flaws aside, these games were excellent and provided me with countless hours of CRPG fun. And right now, PoE's combat alone would prevent me for getting something that is equally long-lasting and fun. In fact, it's pretty darn awful.

[Seari]

I simply mean that multiclassing in AD&D, and in part in 3.0 D&D, isn't nearly as fun as that in 3.5 - which I adore. The best multi-classing system ever.

 

I'm probably an odd fella here, but I actually hold the NWN2 series as my all time favourite CRPG (much thanks to MotB, sure), and BG1+2 as the second best. I wouldn't be here on these very forums if it weren't for the fact that I reckon Obsidian made a magical CRPG that I have enjoyed thousands of hours in. The OC alone, I've played dozens of times - not kidding. So, yeah, I am a big fan of something that many people just shrug off as a bug-infested mediocre CRPG. However, to me, it was a pinnacle.

 

*Runs away and takes cover in fear of getting bombarded by stones Monty Python style*

I agree it is really fun making crazy builds, but I still prefer the more tame multiclassing system.

 

Yeah MotB is amazing, but the OC is just awful. The main two things that make BG2 better are the graphics and the combat system. But mostly it's that the former is a full package, while the latter is just a slice of the cake.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Seari

[Sensuki]

Nice answers, Sensuki!

 

Nope. I never did enter that path node increase command.

 

 

HAHAHAH

 

Man, hahahaha oh dear. No wonder it was bad then. With 40K path search nodes, pathfinding is about 85% right in BG2, the only places where it stuffs up is in tightly confined pathways like walking down a set of stairs, and then characters get blocked and turn around and look for another way, although you just have to manually correct that.

 

Otherwise there really isn't much else wrong with it. If you go to a part of the map and click it, and that place isn't blocked by like a door, they'll usually get there on the first go. It only stuffs up with unit collision sometimes - and as you can see, PE is REALLY struggling with collision ATM.

 

The reason it wasn't 40K by default is because the games were designed to run on bad computers, I think BG1 ran on a 100MHz CPU ? ... so yeah all the CPU intensive stuff was off by default, just had to enable in the config.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

Since I'm re-playing BG1:EE atm occasionally, I reckon the path-finding in the indoor and dungeon areas is better than I recalled it to be. Is this because the EE has those 40K nodes activated? Or will I need to do that in the EE versions as well?

[Seari]

You don't need to. The narrow pathways in BG1 dungeons still make me cringe.

[Sensuki]

I think they did enable it by default in BG:EE yeah. The pathfinding in BG1 isn't very good but it's vastly improved in IWD:HoW and BG2.

PE is actually having more problems with 'narrow' areas even though they are wider. PE creatures are MUCH wider than the IE games and this is causing pathfinding and collision issues in tight spaces.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

I simply mean that multiclassing in AD&D, and in part in 3.0 D&D, isn't nearly as fun as that in 3.5 - which I adore. The best multi-classing system ever.

 

I'm probably an odd fella here, but I actually hold the NWN2 series as my all time favourite CRPG (much thanks to MotB, sure), and BG1+2 as the second best. I wouldn't be here on these very forums if it weren't for the fact that I reckon Obsidian made a magical CRPG that I have enjoyed thousands of hours in. The OC alone, I've played dozens of times - not kidding. So, yeah, I am a big fan of something that many people just shrug off as a bug-infested mediocre CRPG. However, to me, it was a pinnacle.

 

*Runs away and takes cover in fear of getting bombarded by stones Monty Python style*

I agree it is really fun making crazy builds, but I still prefer the more tame multiclassing system.

 

Yeah MotB is amazing, but the OC is just awful. The main two things that make BG2 better are the graphics and the combat system. But mostly it's that the former is a full package, while the latter is just a slice of the cake.

 

The OC has a worse reputation than it deserves. I mean, the areas with orcs and bugbears, for instance, is hideous. But overall it's a pretty cool, though generic story - almost LotR-inspired. However, it's all of those minor areas, and the very different moods in them that does the trick for me, and some odd solutions to quests, and some memorable chars I still can't get enough off, like Sand. The last dungeons at the end was rushed (they even admitted as much), but the ghosts telling the sad story about the Shadow King is very cool, not too mention some of the Neverwinter adventures, and that always übercool Ammon Jerro. Kalacha!

[Sensuki]

The OC has a worse reputation than it deserves. I mean, the areas with orcs and bugbears, for instance, is hideous. But overall it's a pretty cool, though generic story - almost LotR-inspired.

It is LOTR inspired. I remember Josh saying that Ferret's description of the Shadow King in the documentation or whatever was "like Sauron".

Edited November 11, 2014 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

Also, as for Act 2 and the NWN2 OC, some people loved the trial bit (which is a bit dragged out), while others detest it. I for one love it, probably because of Sand alone. Have him along, and then let him be your trial lawyer, it's hilarious!

 

And his bantering with companions, it almost makes me wanna fire up the game right now.

 

EDIT: In some bizarre way, Sensuki is sorta Sand of the Obsidian Forums, and I mean that in a good way.  

Edited November 11, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sensuki]

Yeah George Ziets and Eric Fenstermaker did a lot of or most of Act 2 IIRC?

Edited November 11, 2014 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

Sensuki: That's correct, and Josh did bite his knuckles over those darn orc caves and canyons that never ended for years. He did not like those.

 

EDIT: Another cool thing about NWN2, after I had done four "competionist" playthroughs (that was before I had opened up the hood as a modder), I happened to stumble over a couple of dungeons (areas) that I had missed. I was so taken aback by that - oh, the joy! 

Edited November 11, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Seari]

The OC has a worse reputation than it deserves.

I think it deserves the reputation it has, having just replayed it. It's a linear boring POS with a horrible engine. I wish I could've killed off half the characters, and most of all that annoying gith Zhajeve(sp?). The only good thing in the OC is that you can murder Elanee.

 

I was thinking of trying Mysteries of Westgate, has anyone played it?

 

edit: The only reason I've put MotB on hold is because of the OC.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Seari

[IndiraLightfoot]

Seari: Zhjaeve is a nightmare!!! "Know that..." That character, and then Neeshka, plus that annoying Grobnar (both forced on you at certain segments in the game), I absolutely loathed. Elanee and Qara are not very nice companions either.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Seari: I haven't played the whole thing, but most of it: but it's pretty decent, although a bit empty and wide, if you know what I mean - uneventful. It's on par with the OC's Act 1 stuff, but it has nothing on MotB.

[Sensuki]

The engine is the single worst thing about it for me. I won't play games that I get bad FPS in, so I don't play Neverwinter Nights 2. It ran okayish on my 2007 computer (AMD64 4600+) with the AMD64.exe of it, but on all my Intel CPUs afterwards I only get 20-30 FPS. No thanks.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Sensuki: Intel has always become spooked by NWN2 for some reason. I have had AMD all the way, and it usually runs nice enough. That said, the engine has loads of problems, but it runs at least.

[prodigydancer]

The OC has a worse reputation than it deserves.

I think it has a better reputation than it deserves. NWN2 OC story is so bad it makes DA2 and D:OS storylines look decent.

 

Oh yeah and if releasing a game with low gfx performance were a crime NWN2 programmers would now be serving lifetime terms.

Edited November 11, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Shevek]

I simply mean that multiclassing in AD&D, and in part in 3.0 D&D, isn't nearly as fun as that in 3.5 - which I adore. The best multi-classing system ever.

 

I'm probably an odd fella here, but I actually hold the NWN2 series as my all time favourite CRPG (much thanks to MotB, sure), and BG1+2 as the second best. I wouldn't be here on these very forums if it weren't for the fact that I reckon Obsidian made a magical CRPG that I have enjoyed thousands of hours in. The OC alone, I've played dozens of times - not kidding. So, yeah, I am a big fan of something that many people just shrug off as a bug-infested mediocre CRPG. However, to me, it was a pinnacle.

 

*Runs away and takes cover in fear of getting bombarded by stones Monty Python style*

 

Multiclassing in 3.x sucks because spellcasting multiclasses (some of the more interesting ones) are only good with prestige classes. Ultimately, players need to be in the mid/high levels to enjoy decent 3.x character development and you need a few key prestige classes to make spellcasting multiclasses feel viable.

 

Running through BG2 with a spellcasting multi or even triple class is viable. Actually, spellcasting multiclasses feel worthwhile in ADnD.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Shevek

[archangel979]

I think they did enable it by default in BG:EE yeah. The pathfinding in BG1 isn't very good but it's vastly improved in IWD:HoW and BG2.

 

PE is actually having more problems with 'narrow' areas even though they are wider. PE creatures are MUCH wider than the IE games and this is causing pathfinding and collision issues in tight spaces.

As a person that has been playing IWDEE for the last week I can confirm that pathfinding is no better when it matters (battles indoors). Characters still don't know how to pass anything in formation without bumping into each other and trying to go back and find alternate routes, some characters still decide to go a different way from the rest that would be good if there was not a river blocking that way :D and characters still get stuck on each other when I select two or more and tell them to attack same target in melee. Not to mention ranged characters being just a bit out of range of their target and blocked by allies in small area and not being able to squeeze through..

 

These are all problems that I don't want to see in PoE.

Edited November 11, 2014 by archangel979

[Gorbag]

 

The OC has a worse reputation than it deserves.

I think it has a better reputation than it deserves. NWN2 OC story is so bad it makes DA2 and D:OS storylines look decent.

 

Oh yeah and if releasing a game with low gfx performance were a crime NWN2 programmers would now serve lifetime terms.

 

After my first (and only so far) playthrough of the OC and both expansions, I didn't think it was bad. OC was unspectacular but ok-ish, minus most of the companions, starting with Elanee and that goddamn paladin. MoTB was very good. SoZ was the only thing I honestly disliked. Most importantly I don't remember having any serious gripes with the mechanical aspects.

So I fired it up a few months ago for a possible replay and, much to my amazement, found out that I simply cannot play this game anymore.

I struggle with the UI every step of the way, the camera and I are not on speaking terms, the game looks and performs much worse than I remember, and to top that, I seem to have lost all ability to comprehend, much less control, the game's combat. I don't even know how I did it the first time around. I guess that's it for me and NWN2 

[IndiraLightfoot]

Gorbag: That's sad! Myself, I have so many hours on it that you can wake me up in the middle of the night, and I will make my mid-level party survive a nightwalker or two, guaranteed!