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A Proposition for Improving Combat Interface Feedback

combat interface

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#21
Sensuki

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If we can queue up abilities. Can we?


You can now, yep.
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#22
Sensuki

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but THE MOST important thing here, is the AWARNESS of the existing problem. If Obsidian is not fully realizing what we are talking about here, or is taking this topic lightly, not much will be done here.


Not just awareness, but the acceptance that it is a problem. There are things that I believe Obsidian do not think are an issue, but the reality is that they are.

#23
Karkarov

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In many ways this argument is getting old because in all honesty it isn't really legitimate.  Combat does not feel all that different from the IE games, no.... no,... it really doesn't.  Many people on this forum were die hard "do it like IE or else" people and these half measures are what is making the game rough to begin with.  In retrospect I think Obsidian should have done one of two things.

 

1: Just made a modern IE game rip off where basically it was just like Baldur's Gate 2, or as close as possible, just with new graphics and no official D&D rights.  This would have disappointed the hell out of me personally but suck it up cupcake.

 

2: Just done what they wanted to do and made the game they wanted to make and if it turned out looking fairly different from the IE games?  Oh well, people will get over it.

 

The main problem with combat now is just most actions are too fast and too much is happening all at once.  If they do make some minor adjustments to action speeds, tune some weapons and abilities to be less powerful and a few others to be stronger, and make a couple other minor tweaks I am sure they will be good.  What they don't need is these massive sweeping changes that alter the entire flow of combat from the ground up.


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#24
Gladiuss8@gmail.com

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The main problem with combat now is just most actions are too fast and too much is happening all at once.  If they do make some minor adjustments to action speeds, tune some weapons and abilities to be less powerful and a few others to be stronger, and make a couple other minor tweaks I am sure they will be good.  What they don't need is these massive sweeping changes that alter the entire flow of combat from the ground up.

 

Now that's when most people here differ. Current, those "minor" changes prove that it requires more to really change the overall feel of the combat. "Massive, sweeping changes" that changes an entire flow of combat are needed, because this is what is wrong with combat now... i.e, combat flow. 

 

 

 

2: Just done what they wanted to do and made the game they wanted to make and if it turned out looking fairly different from the IE games?  Oh well, people will get over it.

 

Entire discussion here is based on the fact, that what they wanted to make is not nearly as good as what IE games presented...



#25
Gairnulf

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sometimes two of my characters swing simultaneously, other times it's like they wait for each other, but I guess the latter is an illusion. However I don't think I saw my characters swing simultaneously with an enemy.


The IE games have a thing called "Speed Factor" which kind of doubles as Initiative, it adds a delay to when characters start to attack.

 

 

I see. But I guess the delay is still within the limits of the current round?

 

 

Recovery timers and Combat HUDs should not be necessary.

I don't think recovery timers are vital, but they make combat more convenient to follow, for me at least. They could do away with the health meters above characters, but then we would just have to hover over a character's head every time we want to get an idea of how much health they have left. The health bars save us this hovering.

 

For me, problem with combat interface is just the tip of the iceberg. Main problems were highlighted in the forums, but THE MOST important thing here, is the AWARNESS of the existing problem. If Obsidian is not fully realizing what we are talking about here, or is taking this topic lightly, not much will be done here. 

 

What this game needs at this point, is trying many different approaches related to fluidity of combat, and implementing them on a daily basis. This needs to be done extensively inside the Obsidian, things have to be verified inside Obsidian even without backers help or opinion, simply because combat gameplay is just not up to todays standards. Sadly, looking at the progress shown in new beta builds, this is not being done. My hope would be all lost, if Obisidian didn't push the release date, but it is still very sluggish. 

 

Combat is probably the most commented topic, so I'd be very surprised if they are not considering changes.



#26
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I don't think recovery timers are vital, but they make combat more convenient to follow, for me at least. They could do away with the health meters above characters, but then we would just have to hover over a character's head every time we want to get an idea of how much health they have


That's because there's a lack of animation feedback. If you could see at a glance whether a character is in recovery time or not based on their current stance/animation then you wouldn't *need* a bar above their head. Yes, I also find health bars for characters superfluous because you have a portrait that displays their current health/endurance anyway. It's fine for enemies and summons etc but superfluous for party members.

#27
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That's because there's a lack of animation feedback. If you could see at a glance whether a character is in recovery time or not based on their current stance/animation then you wouldn't *need* a bar above their head. Yes, I also find health bars for characters superfluous because you have a portrait that displays their current health/endurance anyway. It's fine for enemies and summons etc but superfluous for party members.

Be realistic Sensuki, characters are way too small on screen to get the kind of depth at a glance you are talking about purely from animations.  Especially considering all the crap going on during combat as is.

 

 

 

2: Just done what they wanted to do and made the game they wanted to make and if it turned out looking fairly different from the IE games?  Oh well, people will get over it.

Entire discussion here is based on the fact, that what they wanted to make is not nearly as good as what IE games presented...

No, what happened is they tried to meet the IE Diehards in the middle and sacrificed their vision to nostalgia goggles.


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#28
Sensuki

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Sorry but that's bull****, you can always tell in BG1 and BG2 when a character is performing or not based on their current stance and animation.

Edited by Sensuki, 02 November 2014 - 05:02 AM.

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#29
Sensuki

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Here's an example

 

Which characters are currently performing an attack and which ones are completely idle ?

 

BG2:

 

pTaVj1T.jpg

 

PE:

 

Cs1KJdp.jpg


Edited by Sensuki, 02 November 2014 - 05:10 AM.

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#30
Gladiuss8@gmail.com

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Imo camera angle has to change.


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#31
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Here's an example

 

Which characters are currently performing an attack and which ones are completely idle ?

Looks like the guy with the two handed axe and the poofy shirts in BG.  In Eternity it looks like the Guard, BB Priest, and whoever is stabbing the Guard with a stick.  Bearing in mind both are static pictures, not live, BG had much simpler graphics and likely fewer animations, no insane effects are going off like fireballs, and your PE screenshot is crazy zoomed in.


Edited by Karkarov, 02 November 2014 - 05:23 AM.


#32
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In the BG2 one The Priest, Monk and Sarevok (guy with Halberd) are making attacks. You can clearly tell that my Kensai chick is not because her weapons are down.

 

In the PE one only the guard and the Orlan are making attacks. BB Priest and BB Fighter are not making attacks, but it looks like BB Priest is doesn't it ? ;)


Edited by Sensuki, 02 November 2014 - 05:37 AM.


#33
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I can hardly see selection circles in this PoE screen. Bleh.



#34
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In the BG2 one The Priest, Monk and Sarevok (guy with Halberd) are making attacks. You can clearly tell that my Kensai chick is not because her weapons are down.

 

In the PE one only the guard and the Orlan are making attacks. BB Priest and BB Fighter are not making attacks, but it looks like BB Priest is doesn't it ? ;)

But it doesn't matter Sensuki!  Cause in game in real time I would have noticed like 2 seconds went by without the priest doing something so I would have paused and issued a command.  Cause I literally do pause like every 3 seconds in Eternity cause crap happens too fast.


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#35
Sensuki

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Yes it does, and it will matter more if combat becomes a bit slower. Then there's the people using the slow function, and people playing without Combat HUDs to consider (people playing without Combat HUDs is the primary reason why I've been advocating it, because I want to be able to disable them and be able to play the game without suffering from lack of feedback).


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#36
prodigydancer

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I agree that characters who aren't attacking anything should have actual idle animation. It makes perfect sense and should be very easy to implement (since it's the same idle animation you have out of combat).

 

There's no reason for Obsidian to ignore this suggestions because it's a visible improvement at minimal cost.


Edited by prodigydancer, 02 November 2014 - 06:08 AM.


#37
archangel979

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I am just playing IWD:EE and I don't really watch character animations to see who is doing what. I just watch icon on portraits to see if people are doing anything or idling. 

I don't even care much for selection circles changing shape to show me who they are attacking as I know who I clicked on to attack and I know the game is not going to cancel that order. 

Also the game being slow enough helps and camera is good. No crazy FX also makes a huge difference.


Edited by archangel979, 02 November 2014 - 06:33 AM.


#38
Sensuki

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I haven't played Icewind Dale:EE but in Icewind Dale there are no animations like in BG1/2 - Black Isle removed them and all characters look idle when not doing anything in combat. Not sure if IWD:EE is like that also.



#39
Gairnulf

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I don't think recovery timers are vital, but they make combat more convenient to follow, for me at least. They could do away with the health meters above characters, but then we would just have to hover over a character's head every time we want to get an idea of how much health they have


That's because there's a lack of animation feedback. If you could see at a glance whether a character is in recovery time or not based on their current stance/animation then you wouldn't *need* a bar above their head. Yes, I also find health bars for characters superfluous because you have a portrait that displays their current health/endurance anyway. It's fine for enemies and summons etc but superfluous for party members.

 

 

I thought of this as a possible counter argument as well. I guess it's a matter of preference - receiving feedback only from animations should take a little (hopefully very little) time for getting used to, but on the other hand it will concentrate the player's eyes on the characters. With the indicators it's the opposite, or at least it should be - they are a bit misleading right now, because they are of equal length but of different speed with which they shorten.



#40
prodigydancer

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I haven't played Icewind Dale:EE but in Icewind Dale there are no animations like in BG1/2 - Black Isle removed them and all characters look idle when not doing anything in combat. Not sure if IWD:EE is like that also.

IWD EE uses the same version of Infinity Engine as other enhanced editions so combat animations are there:

 


Edited by prodigydancer, 02 November 2014 - 06:55 AM.






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