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PrimeHydra

Shouldn't Health and Endurance Be Switched?

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I wonder if they *could* use the IE mechanics, since it's licensed, although I seem to recall the Cap'n saying that the old 2nd edition rules or some equivalent are a kind of open license now or something like that.  They'd get no end of grief if they simply put together a game with the carbon copy ruleset.  

I certainly wouldn't advocate turning this into a D&D 2nd Edition game. This is just about tweaking the health/endurance systems (mainly reversing their names). Surely the notion of health (rather than endurance) on portraits isn't licensed?

 

I think the idea of stamina and health sounds like fun, and it didn't cause me any grief when I played it in Darklands years ago.  

 

Do you mean as it exists now, or as proper stamina/fatigue system alongside an intuitive health system? Right now we have "attrition"--a good word for the intent of the health system, G1fted. It's really the state of how much a character has been "ground down". All we really have for stamina/fatigue right now is a "tired" state when going too long between nappie times.

 

You make some good points about attrition in the larger sense, Cant. Maybe player choices should affect not just your quests but also the health and wealth of enemies you encounter.  That's kind of a larger issue, certainly one I agree needs to be tapped into creatively.

Edited by PrimeHydra

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Depending on a variety of factors, in Darklands you could heal from a wound faster in real life than you could playing the damned game!  I kid!  I kid!  ...But it was time consuming.  Of course, there were ways to increase your healing, but it was a lot more time consuming than the current system.  I agree with your logical points, Hydra.  I just don't know that they're really pressing because the intuitive gap isn't all that striking.  On the other hand, I don't really have strong feelings about it, so it wouldn't bug me if they changed the name.  I would change MIGHT to PROWESS or something first because that one actually *does* bug me.


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...how do you feel about endurance and health as they exist, and as they are named?

Im not a fan of the two bar system. Extra muddle just for the sake of not being like D&D, imo. The names are unimportant to me but I will admit I was initially confused that the larger area of the portrait wasn't Health. Did that change in the subsequent two builds? Ive only played the first build so far.

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I want to be challenged by the encounters, not the games mechanics, so I wouldn't mind to just regen to full Health after every fight. "Attrition" is just another way to make fights harder. Not a single mook in the game will be below 100% capabilities when we encounter them (full Health, full spells, full skills/abilities). If the only way to make encounters dangerous is if my party is at 1/4 capability because I just fought 3 other mobs then that's a boring campaign, imo.

 

 

I am not sure I completely agree. There are clearly two aspects to challenge, one of which is resource management. I would say that if no matter how you completed an encounter i.e. how smart you played and the game allowed you to play the next as if nothing had happened, it reflects on the flow of gameplay. 

 

Now, you would think but I *did* spend spells and resting supplies between the two encounters? Is that not the resource cost?

 

I would say that this is only partly true. As long as those spells do not really "cooldown" to usefulness, there is no real resource cost. Your "health" is your most precious resource anyway. If that goes to zero you lose. That expenditure also needs to be tracked somehow. 

 

In summary, I would have both HP + combat resource (spells etc) as the real cost. Not just one or the  other. 

Edited by Captain Shrek

"The essence of balance is detachment. To embrace a cause, to grow fond or spiteful, is to lose one's balance, after which, no action can be trusted. Our burden is not for the dependent of spirit."

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Like I said somewhere else we just need to change the names around to be more .... intuitive.  Otherwise the system is fine.  Make "endurance" Health, turn "health" into Wounds or Life if you don't mind that weird way of stating it, and make what is currently "wounds" be named "Injuries".  Simple change, much more intuitive, no one is confused anymore.

 

Run out of health, fall unconscious and gain an injury.  Run out of wounds or life and your various pains have overwhelmed you and you die.

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Like I said somewhere else we just need to change the names around to be more .... intuitive.  Otherwise the system is fine.  Make "endurance" Health, turn "health" into Wounds or Life if you don't mind that weird way of stating it, and make what is currently "wounds" be named "Injuries".  Simple change, much more intuitive, no one is confused anymore.

 

Run out of health, fall unconscious and gain an injury.  Run out of wounds or life and your various pains have overwhelmed you and you die.

 

I'm confused just reading this... :p

 

Seriously for me the current words are fine and changing them will not make things any more clear for me as far as I'm concerned all that's necessary is to explain fully how the system works not search the universe for that perfect set of words that everyone will immediately yell eureka I understand now because there simply are no such words.


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I'm confused just reading this... :p

 

Seriously for me the current words are fine and changing them will not make things any more clear for me as far as I'm concerned all that's necessary is to explain fully how the system works not search the universe for that perfect set of words that everyone will immediately yell eureka I understand now because there simply are no such words.

It is simple.  You get hit you lose endurance currently, you run out of endurance you fall unconscious and get a "wound" which is semi permanent character disability.  If you lose all your health on the other hand you just plain die.  The formula as it currently stands I believe is 4 endurance damage = 1 health damage, unless you are a barbarian then you lose 1 health every 8 endurance damage.

 

It is pretty straight forward actually, even if a little more... intricate than it really needs to be.

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I'm confused just reading this... :p

 

Seriously for me the current words are fine and changing them will not make things any more clear for me as far as I'm concerned all that's necessary is to explain fully how the system works not search the universe for that perfect set of words that everyone will immediately yell eureka I understand now because there simply are no such words.

It is simple.  You get hit you lose endurance currently, you run out of endurance you fall unconscious and get a "wound" which is semi permanent character disability.  If you lose all your health on the other hand you just plain die.  The formula as it currently stands I believe is 4 endurance damage = 1 health damage, unless you are a barbarian then you lose 1 health every 8 endurance damage.

 

It is pretty straight forward actually, even if a little more... intricate than it really needs to be.

 

 

 

This is practically what Dragon Age did, almost. 

 

But you are right, that it is more than what is necessary. A simpler, Lose health to Die system is probably equally good. 


"The essence of balance is detachment. To embrace a cause, to grow fond or spiteful, is to lose one's balance, after which, no action can be trusted. Our burden is not for the dependent of spirit."

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I'm confused just reading this... :p

 

Seriously for me the current words are fine and changing them will not make things any more clear for me as far as I'm concerned all that's necessary is to explain fully how the system works not search the universe for that perfect set of words that everyone will immediately yell eureka I understand now because there simply are no such words.

It is simple.  You get hit you lose endurance currently, you run out of endurance you fall unconscious and get a "wound" which is semi permanent character disability.  If you lose all your health on the other hand you just plain die.  The formula as it currently stands I believe is 4 endurance damage = 1 health damage, unless you are a barbarian then you lose 1 health every 8 endurance damage.

 

It is pretty straight forward actually, even if a little more... intricate than it really needs to be.

 

 

Actually the confusing part to me was why you thought the names needed changing - to me stamina or endurance is something that you can run out of and still survive when a runner runs out of endurance he stops running and sits down or passes out etc.

 

Health on the other hand seems to convey the comprehensive total of all your bodily bodily functions both internal and external - you are not healthy when diseased or wounded but you're not dead but when you have 0 health then nothing is working and you better hope there is an afterlife becuase you are now toast...

 

Trust me when you get to be my age you know when you're losing health and you do something about it while endurance....well like the song says I may not be as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was... :yes:


Nomadic Wayfarer of the Obsidian Order


 

Not all those that wander are lost...

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Actually the confusing part to me was why you thought the names needed changing - to me stamina or endurance is something that you can run out of and still survive when a runner runs out of endurance he stops running and sits down or passes out etc.

I suggest it because in the IE games (aka D&D rules) you have HP, as in Hit Points.  When you run out of Hit Points you don't necessarily "die" in D&D, and the way they are displaying endurance in Eternity is consistent with how the displayed HP in the IE games.  Lots of people are apparently just weirded out by this.  They could also maybe swap the bars, like Health is the red filling portrait thing and the green bar on the side is Endurance.

 

To me it doesn't matter what names they use, I understand how the system works.  Though just like Prodigy points out above I am not sold on the idea that it was a system we needed to invent.

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Now hear me out....

 

I think the idea of health and endurance are okay as they are now. How about they just stop filling up the character portrait with red, and choose some other more appropriate color. Maybe switch the red and green that are present currently.

 

Keep it simple.

 

 

Switching the locations as you suggest below could work too, but I'm not sure that you need to swap the names. Just make it so that when a green bar on the left hits zero during combat, that character is knocked out (still called endurance). When the character's portrait fills with red, that character is dead (no more health).

 

  • Let the portrait represent "Health". Your actual health. When it runs out, you're maimed or dead depending on whether you have "Death" enabled. Increase health accordingly, so that it's no easier to die now than it was before this change. Restore health using the same spells/abilities/potions we already have for Endurance, or by resting. And--this last bit is optional--let resting restore a limited amount of health. I liked how in the IE games, if your character was hurt badly, they'd need to visit a temple, quaff a potion or get some clerical attention--unless you want to rest a few times. This part is debatable; the terminology change is the key point.
  • Let the secondary, little green bar next to your portrait represent "Endurance" or "Fatigue". It depletes over time as you travel and exert yourself (use abilities etc), not when you take damage. It is a limit on the "adventuring day", basically a more granular stamina system. When the green bar depletes, your characters become tired and start accumulating penalties. Restore fatigue by resting.
Edited by Marceror
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I've read half a dozen of topics on the subject and I still have no idea why we need two health systems instead of one and how it's supposed to improve gameplay and make it more fun.

"No idea"? Thats a good bit of hyperbole since its been explained by devs over and over.

I like the idea. It makes sense. It works.

The game needs to fix a broken skill system and a chaotic combat feedback system. The health system is not part of the problem here.

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It makes sense.

To me it doesn't. Sorry, I'm going to be brutally honest there - I believe this is one of the stupidest concepts ever. Obsidian is starting to add abilities that heal HP - a welcome change. One can only hope they'll just remove endurance further down the road because it's redundant.

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It makes complete sense. One is short term stamina and the other is long term health. It makes dungeon delving a strategic affair since you can't rest spam as much (to ration out resting supplies to ensure you are healthy enough throughout your outing). How does that fail to compute for you? Can you explain how that totally eludes your abiliy to make sense of it? How is it stupid? It is actually in line with what a real adventure would be like. You could use short term stamina to get through some fights. You get a breather after each fight and could get some energy back but as the scrapes and cuts build up, you eventually need to set up camp and rest. These are not redundant - they are actually fairly separate things.

 

Again please explain why you cant process this.

 

Also, health regen skills are stupid. I am sure, like tieing skills to talents, OE will realize this is dumb and remove that foolishness.

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It makes dungeon delving a strategic affair since you can't rest spam as much

Because of limited resting supplies? Thank you, I'll just edit my save and add as many as I want.

Edited by prodigydancer

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Cheaters gonna cheat.

I've been cheating in single-player games since 1989. How big a chance do you think you have to persuade me that it's wrong? :)

Edited by prodigydancer

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True. Now, go back, read through our discussion, look at the "reasoning" behind your "points" and ask yourself, "why would a designer listen to me?" Again, if things just "don't make sense to you" and you won't be convinced since "you been gaming since '89, dude," why would a designer give a darn about your opinion?

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It makes complete sense. One is short term stamina and the other is long term health. It makes dungeon delving a strategic affair since you can't rest spam as much (to ration out resting supplies to ensure you are healthy enough throughout your outing). How does that fail to compute for you? Can you explain how that totally eludes your abiliy to make sense of it? How is it stupid? It is actually in line with what a real adventure would be like. You could use short term stamina to get through some fights. You get a breather after each fight and could get some energy back but as the scrapes and cuts build up, you eventually need to set up camp and rest. These are not redundant - they are actually fairly separate things.

 

Again please explain why you cant process this.

 

Also, health regen skills are stupid. I am sure, like tieing skills to talents, OE will realize this is dumb and remove that foolishness.

 

 

Actually, it makes zero sense. What if there is just one health pool that can't be healed? How is that case in any way different towards delivering your goal than having two pools? The names given to the two pools are actually the least important issue to which you seem to be emotional attached. 

 

This is actually just the minor point. 

 

The biggest point is that the resting mechanics can NOT be spammed assuming that there are:

1 ) limited resting supplies

2 ) no free rest zones outside of the taverns. 


"The essence of balance is detachment. To embrace a cause, to grow fond or spiteful, is to lose one's balance, after which, no action can be trusted. Our burden is not for the dependent of spirit."

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I am not "emotional attached" to the current system;  I just feel it makes sense and it works.

 

 

 

What if there is just one health pool that can't be healed? How is that case in any way different towards delivering your goal than having two pools?

 

I can make a bunch of "what ifs" too. They dont matter. Give me a clear reason why this system doesnt work. Frankly, all I hear is a bunch of whining with no explanations other that "its not like BG2, why?"

 

 


The biggest point is that the resting mechanics can NOT be spammed assuming that there are:

1 ) limited resting supplies

2 ) no free rest zones outside of the taverns.

 

Ok, so what exactly are you trying to say?

 

Do you guys know how to make points that are clear or suggestions that are worth a damn? Let me help you.

1. First, outline a SPECIFIC problem. Explain how the problem is either against a stated design goal or harms gameplay. Do not simply plays devil's advocate, attempt to empathize. Look at why something was done, acknowledge that, but stick to explaining how its broken.

2. Outline a solution and how it addresses the problem while not hampering design goals.

3. Do a cost benefit analysis where you weigh what you gain and against an honest assessment of what you lose with your prosposed solution.

 

This is not remotely what is happening in this thread. Its like kids with ADHD chasing rabid squirrels.

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