Journalism and sexism in the games industry

[Fighter]

Wu keeps at it.

 

https://twitter.com/SerialExpansion/status/527099896273190912/photo/1

 

LoL. You're so polite... But actually, it's all about misogyny.

[Keyrock]

Fun fact:  The Bayonetta character was designed by Mari Shimazaki 

 

 

She must be a "sock puppet".

[Longknife]

Fun fact:  The Bayonetta character was designed by Mari Shimazaki 

 

 

She must be a "sock puppet".

 

 

 

What's that? Sorry? You've got a bad connection, you're breaking up.

[Keyrock]

Another "sock puppet" clearly with internalized misogyny.

 

[Longknife]

Another "sock puppet" clearly with internalized misogyny.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is why I refuse to take feminism seriously until they define things.Maybe I'm so opposed to it because I studied law and we define literally EVERYTHING (you could argue a law degree is largely about learning legal interpretations of words like "stole" or "pressure"), but I firmly believe you cannot be expected to be taken seriously if you cannot concisely organize your thoughts.

 

 

Feminism to me feels like a term that attracts a lot of women who think "well it's about women and I'm a woman so it must be good for me," and then what happens is you have a lot of women who one day decide they're hungry and that their husband should give them his last slice of cake, and when he doesn't it's misogyny because feminism = "whatever I want" and she happens to want that cake at the moment. It seems to be something that WAAAAAAAY too many people are applying subjective interpretations and views to, which makes it very difficult to productively discuss or take seriously because it's definition is constantly changing. I would even argue that calmer feminists such as Sommers or Emma Watson desperately need to get off their asses and work to DEFINE feminism clearly and concisely if they truly care about it.

 

  The above is just another example of how subjective feminism can be. It turns out both the creator and lead producer of Bayonetta are both women who created what some feminists consider a misogynistic character. Meanwhile Wu creates similar characters but that's A-OK because she supports the agenda of the feminists attacking Bayonetta.

   This does not have the qualities or characteristics of an ideology. This is self-interested. An ideology or philosophy should have defining rules and guidelines to explain what isn't and is ok according to it, but the lines are so blurred with feminism that you would absolutely STRUGGLE to name a single example of feminist activism where there was not internal disagreement between two or more feminists. GamerGate is just another example, with Sommers and Sarkeesian on opposing sides.

 

 

   For any feminists who might happen to read this, kindly define your stances, because at this moment in time, it lacks them and thus is hard to take seriously. Urge prominent feminists to come together and sit down and write up a codex of what feminism does and doesn't mean. Until that day happens, we're bound to encounter spoiled little girls using the name selfishly as a shield and tarnishing it's name.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

This is it. Better than I'd expect, I'll admit, but just click through different parts of the video. The gameplay either looks incredibly dull and boring or frustratingly slow at times. The majority of it is Quicktime Event: the Game:

 

That look pretty awful, to be honest. I suppose the low sales have been due to the misogynist horde though, it couldn't be that people don't want to play a piece of crap.

 

Also LOL at the body types.

 

 

Wu keeps at it.

 

https://twitter.com/SerialExpansion/status/527099896273190912/photo/1

Is that real? ...It is real. Unbelievable. I literally can't understand how that could be scary.

 

"Reason" is a trigger word? I think its pretty clear that Wu is.... thin-skinned, considering the hit-piece interview.

Edited October 28, 2014 by KaineParker

[kirottu]

It's actually about ethics in gaming journalism:

https://medium.com/@aquapendulum/my-letter-to-jason-schreier-about-gamergate-ethics-f890d357188

 

It is the longest article I have ever linked so be warned. 

[plymouth]

 

Another "sock puppet" clearly with internalized misogyny.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is why I refuse to take feminism seriously until they define things.Maybe I'm so opposed to it because I studied law and we define literally EVERYTHING (you could argue a law degree is largely about learning legal interpretations of words like "stole" or "pressure"), but I firmly believe you cannot be expected to be taken seriously if you cannot concisely organize your thoughts.

 

 

Feminism to me feels like a term that attracts a lot of women who think "well it's about women and I'm a woman so it must be good for me," and then what happens is you have a lot of women who one day decide they're hungry and that their husband should give them his last slice of cake, and when he doesn't it's misogyny because feminism = "whatever I want" and she happens to want that cake at the moment. It seems to be something that WAAAAAAAY too many people are applying subjective interpretations and views to, which makes it very difficult to productively discuss or take seriously because it's definition is constantly changing. I would even argue that calmer feminists such as Sommers or Emma Watson desperately need to get off their asses and work to DEFINE feminism clearly and concisely if they truly care about it.

 

  The above is just another example of how subjective feminism can be. It turns out both the creator and lead producer of Bayonetta are both women who created what some feminists consider a misogynistic character. Meanwhile Wu creates similar characters but that's A-OK because she supports the agenda of the feminists attacking Bayonetta.

   This does not have the qualities or characteristics of an ideology. This is self-interested. An ideology or philosophy should have defining rules and guidelines to explain what isn't and is ok according to it, but the lines are so blurred with feminism that you would absolutely STRUGGLE to name a single example of feminist activism where there was not internal disagreement between two or more feminists. GamerGate is just another example, with Sommers and Sarkeesian on opposing sides.

 

 

   For any feminists who might happen to read this, kindly define your stances, because at this moment in time, it lacks them and thus is hard to take seriously. Urge prominent feminists to come together and sit down and write up a codex of what feminism does and doesn't mean. Until that day happens, we're bound to encounter spoiled little girls using the name selfishly as a shield and tarnishing it's name.

 

 

The phenomenon you're referring to has been identified and remarked upon before:

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/social-justice-and-words-words-words/

[Meshugger]

It's actually about ethics in gaming journalism:

https://medium.com/@aquapendulum/my-letter-to-jason-schreier-about-gamergate-ethics-f890d357188

 

It is the longest article I have ever linked so be warned. 

 

It took me an hour to read through it all, but that wasn't a burn, it wasn't an ICE BURN either. That piece was a 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2014 by Meshugger

[Barothmuk]

How are we not doing that? Those websites are being actively boycotted while other websites such as Techraptor are now being given a shot by the community.

Then what is the point of the hissyfit that is Gamer Gate?

 

You demand that the "SJWs" shut-up and only influence through consumption yet the GG side can piss and moan and launch a 'campaign' demanding a change in games journalism.

 

As for the "source" on what people care about, just look around you.

So you made it up?

An ideology or philosophy should have defining rules and guidelines to explain what isn't and is ok according to it, but the lines are so blurred with feminism that you would absolutely STRUGGLE to name a single example of feminist activism where there was not internal disagreement between two or more feminists. GamerGate is just another example, with Sommers and Sarkeesian on opposing sides.

No ****ing ****.

 

There's disagreements with feminism just like there's disagreements in liberalism, conservatism, socialism, etc.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Barothmuk

[Meshugger]

Kellog's just gave Gawker the middle finger. Amazon and Google next?

[Meshugger]

Christina weighs in:

 

 

Of course absolutely nothing about the "gamers are dead"-articles, nothing about Gawker media, nothing except gamergate is bad...mostly.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Meshugger

[Oerwinde]

It's actually about ethics in gaming journalism:

https://medium.com/@aquapendulum/my-letter-to-jason-schreier-about-gamergate-ethics-f890d357188

 

It is the longest article I have ever linked so be warned.

I don't think its necessary to fire Luke Plunkett, have him issue the apology would be fine. I actually enjoy the majority of his articles. Patricia Hernandez needs to go though. Every time I read an article on Kotaku and find myself thinking "Who wrote this garbage" 9 times out of 10 it was her. Even without the ethical concerns she should just be fired for being terrible at her job.

[Fighter]

Christina weighs in:

 

Of course absolutely nothing about the "gamers are dead"-articles, nothing about Gawker media, nothing except gamergate is bad...mostly.

 

LOL. This is journalism these days? Pathetic. In that kind of format with that kind of pace and bullheaded unashamed bias you need to be a very particular kind of speaker to get anything across at all.

 

Christina S. is a nice lady but you'd need a hammer, someone like Total Biscuit maybe, to just beat some of the facts in past that wall of irrational drivel that is the interviewer.

[Volourn]

Every time he mentioned 'misogny' on the GG side she should have pointed out the misogny on the so called 'antui GG' side. Not to mention the hateful anti  (white) male side. EVIL.

[Longknife]

 

How are we not doing that? Those websites are being actively boycotted while other websites such as Techraptor are now being given a shot by the community.

Then what is the point of the hissyfit that is Gamer Gate?

 

You demand that the "SJWs" shut-up and only influence through consumption yet the GG side can piss and moan and launch a 'campaign' demanding a change in games journalism.

 

As for the "source" on what people care about, just look around you.

So you made it up?

An ideology or philosophy should have defining rules and guidelines to explain what isn't and is ok according to it, but the lines are so blurred with feminism that you would absolutely STRUGGLE to name a single example of feminist activism where there was not internal disagreement between two or more feminists. GamerGate is just another example, with Sommers and Sarkeesian on opposing sides.

No ****ing ****.

 

There's disagreements with feminism just like there's disagreements in liberalism, conservatism, socialism, etc.

 

 

1) Because while I'm certain GamerGate will win out, I'm uncertain people will actually learn from this and remember it. I for one enjoy pushing this further because the higher up this goes, the more people that'll potentially become aware of the story, thus the more people that will believe and know "yes, that really just happened." I think it important to understand just how petty and pathetic people are capable of being in regards to all the excuses and propaganda being spouted by journalists.

 

 

2) No, it's called logical deduction and critical thinking. GamerGate and the SJWs disagree on multiple points, both are voicing their opinions and concerns on the matter, yet advertisers continue to pull support while not a single company has come out in support of the SJW side. Companies are logical by nature, therefore they will side with whichever side has the most support and thus can provide the most customers. If you have a counterpoint as to why I'm wrong, I'd love to hear it.

 

 

3) The difference is that liberalism and conservatism still have defining stances. Outlawing abortion is considered a conservative stance, whereas allowing it without restriction is considered liberal. Stricter regulation and enforcement of halting illegal immigrant efforts is considered conservative, whereas relaxing the very same regulations is considered liberal.

 

The difference is that I myself as a person can identify on the whole with one side more than the other while still disagreeing with my side on an issue. Each side has a "ticket" in which if you're 100% for it, you support the respective stance on EVERY issue. This also means that the two have defined stances for every issue, of which YOU as an individual are free to choose on which issues you'd label yourself a conservative or liberal.

 

Feminism fails to do this. There is no defined feminist ticket on where the majority stands, nor are there names for subsets of feminism (for example "Sarkeesian feminism" or "Sommers feminism" or others like this do not exist as subsets) and their various views. Within feminism, you can find views that DIRECTLY OPPOSE EACH OTHER and yet they both use the same name to describe themselves, causing absolute confusion and difficulty with actually properly discussing it. Great example: there are feminists who would argue a woman who looks and acts sexy is empowering as being able to utilize her attractiveness is a form of empowerment that women are exceptionally good at, whereas other feminists would argue that's exploitation and reducing a woman to nothing but her appearance. BOTH of these desire to call themselves feminists, and thus very quickly you end up with situations where basically anything and everything gets labeled as misogynist thinking because both sides of that coin have the liberty to be able to point at their opposition and say that person opposes feminism and is therefore likely a misogynist.

 

   And while I'm at it, while this isn't exactly a fundamental flaw with it's methodology (or lack thereof), feminism has this terrible habit of resorting to hysterics. Please cite a feminist who responded to a statement from a guy by referring to it as "inadvertedly limiting and reflecting poorly on the capabilities of women" instead of blatantly calling the statement misogynist or sexist. It's shock value used to try and garner support, and big ****ing surprise it leads to it becoming a rarity where feminism actually has a say in an issue without the issue becoming absolutely bats*** insane with everyone calling each other communists and nazis and every other word people like to fling at each other without understanding their meanings and utilizing them properly.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Longknife

[Namutree]

 

How are we not doing that? Those websites are being actively boycotted while other websites such as Techraptor are now being given a shot by the community.

Then what is the point of the hissyfit that is Gamer Gate?

 

We want ethics in gaming journalism: Examples

 

If a reviewer feels that Bayonetta is misogynistic he should say so, but the game doesn't deserve a lower score just because it doesn't align with his/her world view.

Rival journalists should not meet behind closed doors and discuss what the common agenda they are going to be pushing is. 

While a online story like gamergate is being covered; journalists should try to fairly cover the issue and represent both sides.

 

 

You demand that the "SJWs" shut-up and only influence through consumption yet the GG side can piss and moan and launch a 'campaign' demanding a change in games journalism.

 

 

 

Gamergate is influencing through consumption or lack there of. Do you know what a boycott is? If SJW's want to boycott things; go ahead. Most people in gamergate wouldn't hold it against them; it's the unethical journalists who are the problem.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Namutree

[Barothmuk]

If you have a counterpoint as to why I'm wrong, I'd love to hear it.

Seeing that you didn't directly quote the section you're responding to I honestly have no idea what I'm supposed to be countering.

 

The difference is that liberalism and conservatism still have defining stances. Outlawing abortion is considered a conservative stance, whereas allowing it without restriction is considered liberal.

Well this is not true. A conservative can be an atheist and pro-choice. Despite the prevalence of religiousness in the American right-wing it is by no means inherent.

 

Their defining stances would be their economic views and the role of the state.

 

Feminism fails to do this. There is no defined feminist ticket on where the majority stands,

Opposition to sex based oppression and equal rights and/or liberation for the female sex.

 

nor are there names for subsets of feminism (for example "Sarkeesian feminism" or "Sommers feminism" or others like this do not exist as subsets) and their various views.

Lol, yes there are, it just sounds like you're ignorant of them.

 

Great example: there are feminists who would argue a woman who looks and acts sexy is empowering as being able to utilize her attractiveness is a form of empowerment that women are exceptionally good at,

That would be the third-wave, liberal "sex-positive" feminists.

whereas other feminists would argue that's exploitation and reducing a woman to nothing but her appearance.

Likely the second-wave, radical-feminists.

[Namutree]

 

Seeing that you didn't directly quote the section you're responding to I honestly have no idea what I'm supposed to be countering.

 

I have to admit; I had the same reaction.

[Barothmuk]

If a reviewer feels that Bayonetta is misogynistic he should say so, but the game doesn't deserve a lower score just because it doesn't align with his/her world view.

Doesn't this conflict with the supposed 'anti-censorship' stance of the GG movement? Its the journalist's review so they can mark down a game for whatever reason they want.

 

It's hardly as if we've hammered out some objective method of reviewing.

 

Rival journalists should not meet behind closed doors and discuss what the common agenda they are going to be pushing is. 

 

While a online story like gamergate is being covered; journalists should try to fairly cover the issue and represent both sides.

Pffftt.

 

I'd like this in real journalism.

 

Gamergate is influencing through consumption. Do you know what a boycott is? If SJW's want to boycott things; go ahead. Most people in gamergate wouldn't hold it against them; it's the unethical journalists who are the problem.

Woosh!

[Namutree]

 

Pffftt.

 

I'd like this in real journalism.

 

 

Me too. 

 

 

 

Doesn't this conflict with the supposed 'anti-censorship' stance of the GG movement? Its the journalist's review so they can mark down a game for whatever reason they want.

 

 

 

 

No. As I said they can still express their political ideas all they want, but journalists should try to be objective when discussing the score. Many gamergate people have used the Christian game sites as a reference of an ethical way of reviewing games. They use 2 scores. The first is a gameplay score; the other is a morality score. It allows people to know whether it received a poor score based on it's gameplay, or if the journalists just doesn't like it ideologically.

 

 

 

Gamergate is influencing through consumption. Do you know what a boycott is? If SJW's want to boycott things; go ahead. Most people in gamergate wouldn't hold it against them; it's the unethical journalists who are the problem.

Woosh!

 

Woosh?

[Meshugger]

Barothmuk: Could you explain what you want from this gamergate-debacle and why?

[Barothmuk]

No. As I said they can still express their political ideas all they want, but journalists should try to be objective when discussing the score.

Tbh, I thought games journalism had moved passed the score thing years ago.

 

From what I can tell this anti-ideology in score deciding is less to do with scores being lowered for ideological reasons and more to do with scores being lowered for SJW ideological reasons.

 

Barothmuk: Could you explain what you want from this gamergate-debacle and why?

Nothing. I'm completely indifferent to the actual 'heart' of the controversy (i.e. ethics in games journalism and the issue of rampant misogyny in the games community). They're both issues sure but it's completely asinine to be wasting this much energy on them when there's greater issues that these things are merely a tiny symptom of.

[Namutree]

 

From what I can tell this anti-ideology in score deciding is less to do with scores being lowered for ideological reasons and more to do with scores being lowered for SJW ideological reasons.

 

 

Unfortunately there's no way no knowing that for sure. I don't think it's unreasonable to think otherwise though; I know I'd be angry if a game got a lower score because it was an affront to christian values.

 

At any rate; I can't prove a negative.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Response to Wu's accusations about Milo.

 

[Media]

 

Milo has much better hair.