Encounter density and area sizes

[IndiraLightfoot]

This isn't exactly a new subject as much as it is a concern that needs to be discussed more thoroughly.

 

Disregarding the obvious: the BB build is bogus - it has been set up for us to test the game and it most likely won't reflect the real thing - I still have that nagging feeling that it does reflect encounter density and area sizes pretty accurately.

 

Our tastes on this matter vary, still here are my preferences:

 

I really enjoyed BG1's rather empty approach. Large area maps, with just a few random encounters for each of them. I like to seep in the mood and atmosphere, and then stumble upon an encounter here and there. The contrast of fighting and combat gets starker this way. I don't want an ARPG D3 endless onslaught hell situ. In the PoE BB, you have maps that are about one fourth of BG1's outdoor maps in size, but they include at least twice as many encounters. I've been watching a few streams of DA:I gameplay outdoors, and they are pretty big with encounters reasonably spread out as well - no mean feat for such an AAA-game. Another 3D-CRPG, Kingdoms of Amalur, had too little space in between encounters, for instance. I'd say this is true for WL2 as well. The landscapes are desolate, but sometimes there are almost too much of enemies and skill stuff to do in the areas. The best areas of NWN2 MotB had this kind of pacing just right, IMHO.

 

Ideally, if PoE's outdoor maps won't get any bigger than those we have in the BB, I'd like to have 3-5 encounters on them. However, these should make sense given their context and the story threads of the game, and above all, they ought to be more challenging and varied - not just filler, filler, filler, and then a sub-boss.

 

If this would indeed come true, we could argue that every encounter is a special encounter, and in that sense worthy of some special encounter xp as well - via sneaking by it, talking them into submission, killing them, whatever.

 

Which are your thoughts on this?

 

They have bought themselves a few extra months. Could this be an area in which they can improve the game in this time?

Edited October 10, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[TheisEjsing]

I agree about the maps being rather content packed. I hope some areas are larger than the ones we got, but I feel it's pretty smart to give the beta, maps which have alot of content. Like let's say, Valley of Tombs in BG1.

 

I think it will feel artificial if all maps are this action packed. But I'd prefer a little more action than some BG1 maps, let's say North Naskel Road.

[Cubiq]

If i remember correctly Bg1 had a lot of random characters in the wilderness, that you could just talk to and wouldn't actually lead in to any quests.

Perhaps giving the game less encounters and just adding a friendly NPC in the middle of the forest, that can tell you a bit about the area, or the monsters, or even where he is headed. would allow to make the areas feel not so empty yet not so full of encounters.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I agree about the maps being rather content packed. I hope some areas are larger than the ones we got, but I feel it's pretty smart to give the beta, maps which have alot of content. Like let's say, Valley of Tombs in BG1.

 

I think it will feel artificial if all maps are this action packed. But I'd prefer a little more action than some BG1 maps, let's say North Naskel Road.

 

 Valley of Tombs in BG1 was a superbly created area. It was large with many things to explore and had several unique encounters which were engaging and challenging. Some of the trash mods on that map weren't really necessary, but combat in BG1 was much easier and less demanding so it wasn't too much of a bother. Right now I'm fairly satisfied with the map populations in PoE--especially with the beetle revisions. Those felt like a chore.

 

If i remember correctly Bg1 had a lot of random characters in the wilderness, that you could just talk to and wouldn't actually lead in to any quests.

Perhaps giving the game less encounters and just adding a friendly NPC in the middle of the forest, that can tell you a bit about the area, or the monsters, or even where he is headed. would allow to make the areas feel not so empty yet not so full of encounters.

 

Particularly like the guy who wants to sell you the "Gem of True Seeing" for around 2,000gp--but it's actually just an ordinary gem worth maybe 50gp! Stuff like that is awesome. Storm of Zehir had many encounters similar in nature to this, and it was a very wonderful aspect of that game. I really hope that they will do more of that in PoE.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Mr. Magniloquent

[IndiraLightfoot]

Cubiq: You recall correctly. You could stumble upon lost children, fruit foragers, mad trios, and sculptors head over heels in love, and so forth.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

Right now I'm fairly satisfied with the map populations in PoE--especially with the beetle revisions. Those felt like a chore.

 

Yep! The last patch was an improvement (Sensuki won't agree, though ) for that map. Personally, I'd still remove one or two encounters more. Those shambling hulks feels very out of place, for instance.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Right now I'm fairly satisfied with the map populations in PoE--especially with the beetle revisions. Those felt like a chore.

Yep! The last patch was an improvement (Sensuki won't agree, though ) for that map. Personally, I'd still remove one or two encounters more. Those shambling hulks feels very out of place, for instance.

 

The shambling hulks do feel a bit oddly tucked into the map. When I was replying I immediately thought of them as they do feel out of place. I didn't mention them because they are tucked away, rather than thrown in your face like the beetles. What might be better would be to remove the shamblers and then move that corpse closer to the immature drakes to give them a bit more purpose.

[Cubiq]

Also i think it would make the world alive if some of the encounters had just a few lines of text, that defines their personality.

For example in the Dyrford crossing map, there's a something similar to a dryad near the right edge of the screen, with those 2 hulking swamp elementals.

I don't really know what he/she is doing there, but if they simply say something like: "How dare you desecrate my grove with your presence. I had thought the villagers learned better than to approach my sanctuary again. It seems i need to remind them again how frightening my wrath can be!"

Then you learned that you entered a grove by accident and that the villagers had a history with her at some point in time. Instead of being just red circle for you to wack at.

 

Same goes for those weird elf like humanoid that are standing near the entrance to the ruins in Stormwall Gorge

Maybe give them a few lines of arrogant banter before they attack?

It's not much but you would at least have a small understanding of what kind of opponents you just faced, etc.

Same goes for those feral druids.

What are they even doing there?

[Karkarov]

Not concerned.  This is just two maps and one town.  It isn't indicative of what the entire game will be, and I seriously doubt there won't be much larger maps out there.  We need to remember that the BB is based on the very first maps and content created to do the vertical slice, the first stuff is not going to be anywhere near the best stuff.

 

That said are the encounters a little dense, yes.  Too dense?  Not sure I would say that but maybe a little.  Does there need to be more encounter wise than what was there in BG1, yes.

[Captain Shrek]

I agree about the maps being rather content packed. I hope some areas are larger than the ones we got, but I feel it's pretty smart to give the beta, maps which have alot of content. Like let's say, Valley of Tombs in BG1.

 

I think it will feel artificial if all maps are this action packed. But I'd prefer a little more action than some BG1 maps, let's say North Naskel Road.

 

It is not content packed. It is trash mob packed. 

[Hiro Protagonist II]

This topic has been brought up before and it's good to see it brought up again. And in those other threads, several reasons were given with people's concerns. One is the maps are in widescreen and not square which makes the maps narrow like a corridor. The maps in BG1 were square and you could travel up, down, left and right and explore the map. The maps in PoE are widescreen which means the distance from top to bottom are quite short and the distance between left and right are long and as I said, feel like corridors. Too late to redesign the maps as they've already been done, but from what I spoken to Sensuki it doesn't look encouraging for the rest of the maps.

 

And with the maps designed as they are as being long thin corridors, there's not much room to manoeuvre without bumping into something. I'd like every wilderness map to have an option where you can sneak past nearly every encounter. You should be able to sneak past all the beetles and/or wolves in Dyrford Crossing on your way to the Ogre cave. But because the map is so small and the beetles are so big, it's impossible. You could go around a lot of enemies in the BG1 wilderness maps, I'd like to see that in PoE

[IndiraLightfoot]

Hiro: Just to make clear that I understood you correctly - Have Sensuki confirmed that the maps are like elongated rectangles, with choke points all over?

 

If so, RIP BG1-CRPG-area-design spilling over into PoE...

Edited October 10, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sensuki]

Yep! The last patch was an improvement (Sensuki won't agree, though ) for that map.

I prefer BG2 content density in cities and BG1 content density in wilderness areas (although a few more quests would be nice). The nerfing of the encounters in the Dyrford Crossing did make it feel a *bit* more BG1 but the way in which they did it made all of the encounters pretty banal/easy.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Sensuki

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Hiro: Just to make clear that I understood you correctly - Have Sensuki confirmed that the maps are like elongated rectangles, with choke points all over?

 

If so, RIP BG1-CRPG-area-design spilling over into PoE...

 

Not confirming anything as I haven't seen them myself. They seem to be a good size in the dungeons like the Dyrford Ruins. But if we find out the exterior maps are small in the final game, well...

 

Also, I decided to see what PoE would be like if it was similar resolution to BG1. So I shrunk the PoE screenshot down to BG1 height to be similar size.

 

Baldur's Gate

 

Zoomed in. Characters, doors and barrels outside seem to be the same. There's definitely more area to see. But there's a lot of what I consider wasted space on the sides. I'd like to see a L or |_| shaped U.I. where the left (and right) side is being used and make the play area with your characters more square. I also think there's a bit of an optical illusion going on with the PoE screenshot, appearing to stretch and making your characters smaller with the widescreen, but they are the same height as the BG1 characters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Zoomed out. It's wider of course but at the same height, everything is smaller. Characters, doors, and even the barrels outside are smaller. Again, there's a lot of wasted space on the side imo. I think this may give it an illusion of things being smaller to a degree in the game world, if you're zoomed out all the time which is how I play most of the time, then everything will feel smaller. BGEE did the opposite with the default was zoomed about halfway in/out when you load a game and then you can zoom in and out. The default for PoE when starting the game is the opposite with being zoomed all the way in and then you can zoom out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I then decided to see what this is like compared to BG:EE. The results are surprising. To keep this in the same ratio as the original Baldurs Gate, I used the same height.

 

Baldurs Gate: Enhanced Edition

 

Zoomed in. Everything is bigger with BG:EE. Characters, doors, barrels. And no wasted space on the sides. And it shows when you have a |_| shaped U.I. design, there's still a bit of area to see. Note: This is zoomed all the way in for BG:EE and it's not how it is when the game starts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Zoomed out. Everything is surprising similar but the big thing for me is the sides are not wasted like they are in the PoE screenshot. The |_| U.I. looks better in BG:EE. The play area is also similar size. You have the dialogue box right in front of you instead of to the side. Overall, I have to hand it to BG:EE as it looks better and more functional imo. You can zoom in more than PoE and when zoomed out, the wasted space on the side are being used. And the zoom is a lot better in BG:EE.

 

 

 

 

 

[Sensuki]

The worst thing is actually the lower camera angle, it looks so bad in comparison.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Sensuki: The camera angle in PoE is indeed a problem. Compared to BG, it makes it hard to view all the units strategically. At its worst, PoE is reminiscent of a side-scroller game.

 

Hiro: Very informative post. Aside, from the screen space issues, having played all the three games - BG1, BG:EE and PoE - I can actually conclude that BG:EE is the winner when it comes to useful UI and best use of screen space and zoom.

[Silent Winter]

I don't want to be constantly tripping over encounters IWD-style,

I thought BG had a good density of combat and other encounters (granted the odd outdoor area was a little empty but it was generally good and some less dense, some more dense areas is good for variety)

[Quantics]

The worst thing is actually the lower camera angle, it looks so bad in comparison.

 

You have said this a lot on these forums already, but I really don't agree.

 

Haven't played the game yet so I can't comment on the functional significance of the lower angle, but at least visually I think it looks great (if not better). 

 

Also Hiro, thanks for posting these screens. I hadn't imagined how BG would look so old in comparison.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Quantics

[wanderon]

Also i think it would make the world alive if some of the encounters had just a few lines of text, that defines their personality.

For example in the Dyrford crossing map, there's a something similar to a dryad near the right edge of the screen, with those 2 hulking swamp elementals.

I don't really know what he/she is doing there, but if they simply say something like: "How dare you desecrate my grove with your presence. I had thought the villagers learned better than to approach my sanctuary again. It seems i need to remind them again how frightening my wrath can be!"

Then you learned that you entered a grove by accident and that the villagers had a history with her at some point in time. Instead of being just red circle for you to wack at.

 

Same goes for those weird elf like humanoid that are standing near the entrance to the ruins in Stormwall Gorge

Maybe give them a few lines of arrogant banter before they attack?

It's not much but you would at least have a small understanding of what kind of opponents you just faced, etc.

Same goes for those feral druids.

What are they even doing there?

 

Agreed - I wonder if this is due to the Beta being more or less cobbled together for testing purposes (perhaps they were added in just to offer additional combat testing opportunities) -if not it would seem very odd indeed that there is no encounter dialoge at all for these.

[Sensuki]

I haven't played the game yet

Precisely. I have played the game and combat in the lower camera sucks, like really bad.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Sensuki

[Quantics]

Well that's your opinion. I'm sure you're making it into a bigger issue than what it really is.

 

Otherwise, well, too bad for you because I don't see that changing at this point in the development. 

 

I'll let you know once the mac build comes out. 

Edited October 11, 2014 by Quantics

[Guest 4ward]

If they'd change to a more top-down view, then maybe there would be no need for the visualisation overkill, and perhaps they could even leave the spell animations as they are. So i think it would be better to consider changing it.

[Karkarov]

 

I haven't played the game yet

Precisely. I have played the game and combat in the lower camera sucks, like really bad.

 

I agree having it higher would have been nice, but saying it "sucks" is a bit of a over statement. 

[Hiro Protagonist II]

The lower camera angle does indeed make it worse. I'd prefer a more top down view like the IE games. It's even worse in combat when you can't see behind characters.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[fgalkin]

I do hope the encounter density in PoE is just a beta thing. Otherwise, packing the map with trash mobs, while simultaenously denying combat XP is quite mystifying, as the only reason for trash mobs' existence- grinding-  is impossible.

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

Edited October 11, 2014 by fgalkin