Sensuki's Suggestions #024: Recovery Time should not pause while moving [Mod & Video]

[Sensuki]

all I had to do was remove a check for !isMoving

 

it was that simple

 

I thought it would be more complicated actually, but since crossbows, arbalests and gun reload animations play independently of recovery time it saved me

[Uomoz]

So you didn't actually check if the AI is scripted in a way to not move if it's in recovery time? From what you posted I think you are referring to the fact that the script change affect all characters in the game, but not inherently the AI. (Sorry if it's a dumb question and I should have assumed you did check)

[Sensuki]

So you didn't actually check if the AI is scripted in a way to not move if it's in recovery time? From what you posted I think you are referring to the fact that the script change affect all characters in the game, but not inherently the AI. (Sorry if it's a dumb question and I should have assumed you did check)

 

I'll paste you the AI conditions if you like, give me a sec

 

the value I changed governs every unit in the game, as every unit in the game has a "CharacterStats".

Edited October 2, 2014 by Sensuki

[Sensuki]

AfflictedBy

CurrentEngager

HighestDamageInflictor

HighestDefense

HighestStamina

LowestDT

LowestDefense
LowestStamina

LowNumberOfEngagers

None

SneakAttackVulnerable

Spellcasters

 

Then there's some secondary checks such as

 

AfflictedBy

AllowedMovementToTarget

DamageType

DefenseType

PreferenceType

 

There's no AI clauses based on recovery, although that would be cool if they got around to adding some that specifically go for interrupts, such as LowestConcentration.

 

There's also some different ones for spellcasters as well.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Sensuki

[mtroman85]

How about a reduced recovery time while moving?

why? Removing it is fine, and now it plays like RTS combat.

 

If there is a reduced recovery time, it can be used to limit kiting, but not remove it entirely as an option.  I think there should be some penalty for moving, but not a complete stop in recovery time.

[Sensuki]

The RTS player in me says no. Kiting doesn't matter really because at the moment there are far worse things you can do than kiting with a bow. You can simply draw an enemy away with one party member while the rest of your stationary ranged characters pound on them very hard.

 

You can draw solo enemies out from groups ...

 

Seriously with the way bows are at the moment, if you are running your party back with bows, good on you, because it will take A LONG TIME to kill anything.

 

Theoretically yeah sure, kiting is an issue, but it's not a problem in the game at the moment - there are far worse concerns.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Sensuki

[Lephys]

The thing is though, moving in combat generally is already an opportunity cost itself when action cooldowns are short, you can miss an attack or two when re-positioning in combat. Paused recovery time while moving magnifies this exponentially. This creates extreme cases where a stationary target that is supposed to be 'sticky' like the Fighter is useless once an enemy has gotten past him, because he has to chase and he is not able to act for the X seconds it takes for him to reach his target once it has stopped moving, plus his full recovery time.

Quite true!

 

I would think that a simple, brief delay between actually stopping moving and being able to execute an action would suffice. I mean, I understand that it's a little silly to be running in the opposite direction, then IMMEDIATELY about-face and fire an arrow. Although, such a system could allow for that type of instant action to be a limited-use, tactical advantage. "Quick Shot," "Quickened spell," etc.

[Fiebras]

Arbalests and guns are interrupted and if you stop them they start from the beginning. Not sure if that's intended but that's how it works currently. Crossbows also have a reload animation that is required to play before shooting.

That makes sense, though I dont think it should apply to bows. Theres no "reload" timer on bows as far as ive seen.

Its a way to balance firearms (though it makes Crossbows useless in comparison unless you give them much shorter reload timers than guns) by forcing you to stand still.

 

Im hoping we get a "ranged" tower shiled to add deflextion to ranged users (You can place it like a trap and it becomes a lootable container. Using the skill gives you a deflection bonus modifier that goes away if you move even a little. Or something like that.).

I mean if we are at the firearms technology stage we should have this as well:

[ctn2003]

Great video but the music it to loud

[Hormalakh]

I really think they should move away from only recovery time and institute a three-layered approach. I believe this is how DOTA2 does it and it feels amazing.

 

*Opportunity time

*Action time

Recovery time

 

The opporunity time is the time required to stand perfectly still and not institute any attacks before an action is taken. The easiest way to solve ranged vs melee would be this: you increase the opportunity time needed for range vs melee. If an archer has to stand still for a certain amount of time, they should need to do so before they have to take their action, not after. This disallows the "first free hit" phenomenon that Sensuki took advantage of in the beetle fights. He was far enough back to get one or two free hits on the enemies before they were able to close that gap. This should also work the other way for enemies. The animation during the opportunity time allows the player to see the "forecasted" action and react appropriately. The character can move during this time. If they do move, their current action will be canceled.

 

The action time is the time required to actually complete the action. This would be the main bluk of the animation, and the character cannot move during this time (they are planted). If the opportunity time was the fighter swinging his sword behind his head, this would be him swinging it towards the enemy.

 

The recovery time should be shorter (or longer, based on the action) and Sensuki's suggestion should also be taken into account: that recovery time should not be taken into account when moving. Continuing the example from above, this would be the fighter picking up his sword after cracking it over the goblin skull. The character can move at this time; if they do move, their "cooldown" continues to tick away (except for cetain weapons or actions like arbalests or certain spells, etc).

 

The reason for this method is to both allow more fluid and reactive characters while still minimizing "range cheesing." Also, the opportunity timing in the beginning sort of makes players "commit" to an action, if they want to complete it.

 

There also more "expert" things players can do with this approach, for example: "orb walking." That is that while more beginner players might have their ranged players stand still in one position while attakcing, more expert players will know when to wait until before readjusting the position of their characters. They will have waited long enough for the action to complete, while utilizing their recovery time for repositioning.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Hormalakh

[Sensuki]

Nope, DotA 2 follows the Warcraft 3 system, which is actually very similar to PE's recovery time system except that the action animation frontswing, backswing and recovery time are all altered at once by the same percentile amount - whereas in PE the recovery is altered first (and recovery time pauses while moving).

[Lephys]

I think that's the right idea, Hormalakh. But, I don't think they'd necessarily need a third, separate resource (opportunity time), as they already have "cast"time. All you'd have to do is give bow attacks, for example, a very short cast time. Really, I guess melee attacks would have one, too, but it would be even shorter.

 

But, yeah, nocking an arrow and aiming should take some amount of time, unless you're Legolas, I guess. That's where talents like Quick Shot, etc. could come into play -- you COULD fire instantly sometimes, but not constantly. So, you get a tactical advantage, to be used in limited quantity when deeded most useful, but you don't get to just magi-kite everything around effortlessly.

[Pray]

Give ranged abilities a significant aim penalty if the champion has moved in xyz time.

[ctn2003]

love it but its hard to hear you over the music but great info anyways - but i do love the music

[Sensuki]

Yeah that will be fixed in the next video, sorry about that.

[ctn2003]

I wonder if they don't make the music more engaging players well just put their own music in the game  haha

[Answermancer]

^{Seems like a good change since it doesn't break reloading. Nice work!}

 

^{I hope Obsidian responds to this one and at least makes some changes if they don't implement this exactly, the current system does feel off.}

Edited October 14, 2014 by Answermancer

[PrimeHydra]

Even without having played the video or mod, this suggestion makes perfect sense. I see no reason why movement should pause action recovery time. Especially once shift+click action queues are implemented. Cast a spell, then queue up a move and another spell. This will reward player skill in factoring recovery time into the queued repositioning. Sounds like a great way to make chaotic combat more tactical!

Edited October 15, 2014 by PrimeHydra

[GreyFox]

This needs to happen and if it doesn't I will play the final version of the game with this mod assuming you put it out there.

 

I am/was also an RTS player...played WC1,2,3 and of course SC, BW, and SC2.

 

Big Blizzard fan as you can tell and I cannot stand the idea of this recovery time.

[Sensuki]

Assuming they don't change the recovery time formula (I think they will though), it's as easy as deleting one check for !isMoving in the code. If/when they do change it, it will be more difficult to make it work correctly, but I will be looking into it if this suggestion is ignored, as I also will not play with it paused while moving.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Sensuki