The Beginning of the End of ISIS?

[nipsen]

As a friend said: "The problem was that you didn't do drugs. So you weren't happy until things actually made sense. Huge mistake".

[HoonDing]

 

70 virgins to be replaced by 70 crones

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?fv=ctQFgDabh1U&x-yt-ts=1421914688

Edited January 27, 2015 by HoonDing

[Zoraptor]

FSA flag, don't make me laugh. May as well put the flag of Gondor or Rohan there too, they contributed only slightly less than the FSA did.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Zoraptor

[BruceVC]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/28/jordan-agrees-freee-islamic-state-militant-release-hostage

 

 

This is interesting, Jordan has agreed to a prisoner swop to get one of their pilots released from ISIS captivity and possibly the Japanese journalist as well

 

 

I wonder if this is a good idea, negotiating with a group like ISIS? What precedent do you set?

[Zoraptor]

It doesn't set one. The pilot is a legit pow and was captured legitimately, he isn't a kidnapped civilian. Doing a swap for a kidnapped civilian encourages more kidnapping, doing a swap for a pow encourages them to take prisoners rather than line any captured combatants up in the desert and execute them, as was their prior modus operandi.

[BruceVC]

It doesn't set one. The pilot is a legit pow and was captured legitimately, he isn't a kidnapped civilian. Doing a swap for a kidnapped civilian encourages more kidnapping, doing a swap for a pow encourages them to take prisoners rather than line any captured combatants up in the desert and execute them, as was their prior modus operandi.

 

I suppose this could reduce the brutal practice of beheading captives, but even in the past they have set terms to avoid killing the various American and British hostages.

 

And the reality is you can't expect countries like the USA and the UK to negotiate so I don't think the beheadings will stop 

[Rostere]

FSA flag, don't make me laugh. May as well put the flag of Gondor or Rohan there too, they contributed only slightly less than the FSA did.

 

You should look at the other flags as well. There are the flags of Iraqi Kurdistan and PKK, who were also not main actors. They are there for the sake of accounting for all who contributed. In any case, any person seriously interested should probably not look at news graphics, but probably defer to the Wikipedia article for information on exactly who fought and how much. And one might also check out the map of the region which is updated almost daily with the current front lines.

 

I understand however that you think the graphic would be awful for an uninitiated reader, who might get the impression that FSA contributed as much as the YPG/YPJ to the battle.

[Zoraptor]

The wikipedia article is, well, rubbish when it comes to FSA involvement. It cites Facebook (!) and otherwise every single source for FSA involvement resolves to being an FSA one thus not independent and with a vested interest in over exaggerating any contribution made by them. Which is of course one of the primary problems with wikipedia, their main concern is getting citations from trusted secondary sources not getting unbiased or accurate information so for them 'CNN quotes FSA leader as saying they have a millionty billionty soldiers in Kobane' is an accurate source because it comes from CNN- not because there actually were a millionty billionty FSA guys there.

 

At least the graphic used YPG pennants for the areas captured, but there really isn't any justification in using the FSA one beyond PR.

[Valsuelm]

A wikipedia article rubbish!?!!?!?

 

Why,  I never!!!

[Zoraptor]

I don't have any particular problem with the article in general, as the FSA stuff is minor and I haven't looked at the other stuff in any depth. But it is another example of the so very easily exploitable reference rules which allow incorrect, non independently confirmed or biased information into an article so long as it has a citeable source- rules which are open to everything from simple mistakes to gross and deliberate manipulation as a result.

 

Whether there is any way of actually fixing that which isn't worse than the current situation, well, I cannot readily think of one except the rather specious one of having unbiased and critical editors- realistically I know perfectly well that my idea of unbiased will clash with other people's even with perfect good faith by all parties.

[Rostere]

So are you denying that the FSA fought in Kobane?

[Zoraptor]

In significant numbers, yes. I'm perfectly willing to accept that there were more FSA chaps there than Rohirrim, just not significantly more.

 

Reason is, the YPG and FSA don't like each other much. The FSA sees the YPG as barely better than collaborators with Assad as they have barely fought Assad at all since he (pragmatically) withdrew his troops from most of Syrian Kurdistan, they don't have particularly compatible aims as the FSA is explicitly anti Assad while the YPG is pro Kurd and anti anyone (including the FSA since they want territorial integrity) who opposes that, and perhaps most significantly the YPG remembers how a large number of 'FSA' people became ISIS people as soon as they became the most well armed and successful group.

[ShadySands]

Jordan executes two Iraqi militants in response to pilot's death

[Malcador]

Well, they were going to swing either way, no big loss. Wonder what Jordan will do now, they are promising retribution but I can't see them rolling into Iraq. Hm, always thought their army had a good reputation even if they sadly don't engage in regular practice wars, heh.

 

 

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/Top-Muslim-body-calls-for-killing-crucifixion-of-ISIS-terrorists/articleshow/46120334.cms

 

Wonder why crucifixion is becoming popular again.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Malcador

[BruceVC]

Well, they were going to swing either way, no big loss. Wonder what Jordan will do now, they are promising retribution but I can't see them rolling into Iraq. Hm, always thought their army had a good reputation even if they sadly don't engage in regular practice wars, heh.

 

 

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/Top-Muslim-body-calls-for-killing-crucifixion-of-ISIS-terrorists/articleshow/46120334.cms

 

Wonder why crucifixion is becoming popular again.

 

Does it bother you that ISIS fighters may get crucified? ISIS has crucified many people so let them see what its like?

[Malcador]

Well, it's just weird to see it mentioned these days, granted I am out of the loop in ways to kill people (necklacing is something I found out about 2 years ago). Rather brutal way to die. If you want to be mean to ISIS people I'd go for enslavement, rather than death. Make them build roads or something.

[Namutree]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/Top-Muslim-body-calls-for-killing-crucifixion-of-ISIS-terrorists/articleshow/46120334.cms

 

Wonder why crucifixion is becoming popular again.

Because it's really cruel.

 

 

Well, it's just weird to see it mentioned these days, granted I am out of the loop in ways to kill people (necklacing is something I found out about 2 years ago). Rather brutal way to die. If you want to be mean to ISIS people I'd go for enslavement, rather than death. Make them build roads or something.

Keeping them alive is dangerous, but crucifixion is barbaric. Just shoot them in the head and be done with it. 

[213374U]

Does it bother you that ISIS fighters may get crucified? ISIS has crucified many people so let them see what its like?

 

Yep, because after they "see what it's like" they can go back and tell their pals all about it. Then they will understand it's barbaric and pointless and stop doing it, right?

 

Does it bother you that human beings brutalize and kill each other, or only when they do it to someone you consider one of the "good guys"?

 

 

Sunni Islam's most prestigious centre of learning, has called for the killing and crucifixion

 

Good thing they are devoted to "learning".

[Malcador]

Keeping them alive is dangerous, but crucifixion is barbaric. Just shoot them in the head and be done with it.

Well I did say if you wanted to be mean to them. Can't get much more meaner than dooming someone to a lifetime of brutal servitude that they are only free from with death.

 

Perhaps I just have a thirst for vengeance today, though.

[Valsuelm]

 

Does it bother you that ISIS fighters may get crucified? ISIS has crucified many people so let them see what its like?

 

Yep, because after they "see what it's like" they can go back and tell their pals all about it. Then they will understand it's barbaric and pointless and stop doing it, right?

 

Does it bother you that human beings brutalize and kill each other, or only when they do it to someone you consider one of the "good guys"?

 

 

 

I think Bruce has answered that question before many times.

 

Assaults, torture, murder, theft, destruction, and conquest are all perfectly ok if the UN does it, the UK does it, France does it, the EU does it, or the US does it. These things are even good if they're done in the name of democracy, and especially good if done in the name of 'western values'.

 

He generally only has a problem with it when the talking heads from the US, UK, UN, EU, or France say it's not ok. Or if the someones doing these things have a problem with 'western values'.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Valsuelm

[Malcador]

Wonder if they'd just left Assad alone what would have resulted from that.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Does it bother you that ISIS fighters may get crucified? ISIS has crucified many people so let them see what its like?

 

Yep, because after they "see what it's like" they can go back and tell their pals all about it. Then they will understand it's barbaric and pointless and stop doing it, right?

 

Does it bother you that human beings brutalize and kill each other, or only when they do it to someone you consider one of the "good guys"?

 

 

 

I think Bruce has answered that question before many times.

 

Assaults, torture, murder, theft, destruction, and conquest are all perfectly ok if the UN does it, the UK does it, France does it, or the US does it. It's especially good if it's done in the name of democracy or 'western values'.

 

He generally only has a problem with it when the talking heads from the US, UK, UN, or France say it's not ok. Or if the someones doing these things have a problem with 'western values'.

 

 

The answer to 2133 question is more nuanced than it appears. Of course it bothers me if human beings brutalize each other, I'm not some kind of sociopath.

 

But as I've mentioned numerous times that during war lines are blurred and we tend to reflect on a country's past deeds more critically. But we mustn't lose  focus on who the enemy is, its not what the USA did 10 years ago. Its groups like ISIS that threaten stability of whole regions 

 

And I cant remember the last time any Western army actually crucified anyone. So its not like thats going to be implemented but we do need to destroy ISIS 

[Gfted1]

Attacking your enemies and supporting your allies is okay. In other news at 11, water is wet.

[BruceVC]

Wonder if they'd just left Assad alone what would have resulted from that.

 

I'm not sure that would have made any difference. I assume you mean The West when you say " they" ?

 

The civil war would still have happened and Islamic extremists would still have flocked to Syria to fight Assad

[Malcador]

Assad might have won out or they'd have a tough time of it that maybe this ISIL/ISIS group wouldn't be running amok in Iraq. Could have been better. But, the world is what it is now, not what it should or could have been.