Boys will be boys on the internet (<- sarcasm)

[BruceVC]

"How many anti-white supremacist groups do you know about ?"

 

Feminists opposes white males.

 

SJW do.

 

The western courts do.

 

The Black Panthers do.

 

 

Just admit it. You have in the past. You hate white males and beleive they are all rapist bigots.

 

 

Epic post Volo, epic post

[Volourn]

Oh yeah, also, a number of white males have also been brainwashed into hating white males.

[NWN_babaYaga]

The next mod who harasses me because i use non-offensive language in my OWN oppinion will hear from my 100 lawyers because this would inflict massive brain damage to my non existing social skills of using the Internet where verbal aussault is the default language of 99% the people...

 

So be warned mods, dont ban me cuz i will eventually die because of a heart attack and then you are guilty of forum rassism against my own little I AM.

 

huh... GAWD I m so deeply troubled now... i gotta have my pills... stop using the internet i can only say or use the SAFETY signs.... clear zones are coming to the internet soon.

[JadedWolf]

 

 

 

Then why do you continually state that you believe white male gamers are a bunch of rapists? So much so you try to twist the word 'gamer' to belittle little and make them out to be a bunch of scumbags who hate women which is NOT the case. Only bigots do that.

 

No Volo, that is not what I am saying

 

But I will say I think white, heterosexual males are the least most discriminated group in the world. I don't feel the need to defend this demographic because generally its unnecessary. Normally we aren't the targets of  hate groups or religious persecution, like the way gay people are targeted by some religious organisations

 

 

I think what you mean to say is that they are, outside of some countries in Africa, rarely discriminated against for being white. Discriminated against for being male? Could argue that being sent to another country to wage a war you had no interest in, or facing execution is something that happens to males a lot more than it does to females, but eh. In most of our countries that was a few generations ago, so let's let that slide.

 

People are often more than just white and male though, and they can certainly be discriminated against those other things which they also are. Because they have red hair, because they are short, because they have asthma and can't run very fast, because they like to play with trains, because they have an accent, because they are jewish, because they are catholic ... or protestant ... or atheist .... Ad infinitum.

 

So... Saying that white males are never discriminated against is just not very helpful.

 

 

I would have thought my perspective would be obvious but its clear I need to explain further

 

Firstly I never said "white, males are never discriminated against ". I said they are the least  discriminated demographic in the world

 

So answer a few questions for me,

• How many anti-white supremacist groups do you know about ? Please list some groups that exist that explicitly state in there manifesto that the objectives are to ensure the survival of the  black race or for that matter any other race apart from the white race and they are fundamentally opposed to white males ? Even Al-Qaeda will accept white males who follow there religious doctrines
• Please list the countries that have outlawed heterosexual relationship and  where the death penalty exists for anyone engaging in  heterosexual relationships. This is the reality that gay people face in certain countries
• Please list the countries where men can't work or cant drive ? I can list countries where women have no rights whatsoever
• Please tell me  what countries in the world ban marriage  between a man a women and refuse to recognise these types of unions, these are the realities many gay people face who want to get married

I can continue to list examples but I think my point should be clear. When I say "white, heterosexual males are the least discriminated group in the world" I'm talking about the big picture in the world. Not just the gaming industry.

 

And I stand by my point that its an absurd suggestion that white males are generally the victims of discrimination and bigotry

 

We are not, we have it easy.

 

 

I like you, Bruce, I really do. But sometimes I think you just deliberately miss the point.

 

My point is, saying that white males have it easy is nonsense considering all the other factors involved. Very few people are only defined by being white and male.

[Longknife]

I am a  liberal and due to the fact I grew up during Apartheid I have experienced first hand what happens when bigotry and discrimination become institutionalized. Its destroys people and severely impacts there dignity

 

So I am opposed to any form of bigotry that includes sexism, homophobia and racism. As far as sexism is concerned in the gaming industry I am not saying the entire industry needs to change and misogyny is rife  but there are  certain changes that should happen purely in the interest of  inclusivity. I don't think this means a paradigm shift in the development of all games but developers need to be aware of there entire fanbase. And many companies like Bioware and Obsidian are already aware of this and  ensure there games are inclusive to all demographics

 

 

Well if you'll give me a second, I've got a rather large wall of text I think you should read.

 

 

Allow me to give you a hypothetical:

 

 

I'm disabled....that part's not hypothetical, that's true.   I was born with one leg and have been disabled my whole life; having two legs would feel as alien to me as having one leg would feel for you. Being disabled and seeing as we're at least decently uncommon in most regions, there's this effect where oftentimes if people hear touching stories or news stories involving disabled people, they get forwarded to me. You may have heard African Americans complain they get stupid comments from white people when they're the one black friend. It sorta functions like this. Bladerunner? Yep, I've heard of him, and not on my own or because I care, but because everyone says "LOOK LONGKNIFE A DISABLED GUY WHO RUNS FAST, YOU CAN TOO!!" Ok one, no I can't cause those costs thousands of dollars and I don't have that, two, if you did some research you'd know those regularly get banned from races for making disabled guys run inhumanely fast with comparatively tiny effort, and three, who the HELL said I have this dream of running fast wtf??

   The recent story about Kanye West? Yep, got that too. Nipped it in the butt early and posted a blanket statement response on my facebook (which I rarely ever use) to stop them.

 

 

So as you can see, I too can get involved with "discrimination" or "stereotyping" or whatever you wanna call it. I put it all in quotations cause I wouldn't exactly call it that and I see no reason to freak about it.

 

 

   Now let's say, hypothetically, that I were to tell you all of that DID bother me and that I find it utterly disgusting how under-represented disabled people are in video games. You think the representation of female protagonists is barren? Try the disabled. I could easily compile a list of female protagonists that's by no means small (Samus, Lara Croft, Faith, Kazooie of Banjo and Kazooie, Bayonetta, etc etc), but you'd struggle to name a single disabled protagonist.

  And let's be real here. There is a serious struggle amidst the disabled community. But it's not the one you'd expect. And I think it's one YOU'D be wise to listen to and hear out.

 

 

 

So now for the hypothetical. Let's say I came to you claiming I was mortified by what Kanye West did and that I think we should ALL boycott him. After all, that jackass made a spectacle of two disabled people right? What an ****, everyone with common sense should boycott and shun the guy much like Ceelo Green is being boycotted for his rape comments, and anyone who disagrees simply doesn't understand, sympathize with and respect the disabled community enough. We don't have a fancy word like sexist or racist (proof of how discriminated against we are!!), but if there was one, it'd apply to Kanye and anyone that refuses to boycott him.

 

  I get the sense that I could say the above paragraph to you and you'd be behind me 100%. Or hell, maybe you even read it and thought it's a good idea with extremely valid points, hypothetical or not.

 

Here's the problem....

 

When you lack a personal motivation where the situation effects you directly and on a personal level, there's this element of not knowing how much is too much. You cannot accurately judge the difference between "equality" and "entitlement."  You can, but if you do so and you get an angry, entitled disabled person screaming at you for how hateful and discriminatory you're being...? You'll likely back down and take his side and adopt his stance. You dunno if he's right about you or if he's actually entitled. So, in fear of being discriminatory and with an attitude of loving everyone and wanting equality for all and knowing equality is the right thing to do, you adopt his argument and do as he says.

  So how do you know when you've wound up being a shield for an entitled person who's self-interested and doesn't actually care about the cause beyond how it can benefit them personally? Someone who doesn't only want equality, but rather wants their group to have an advantage and to get more, and all that only due to self-interest and the fact it'd profit them themselves? (aka if they succeeded and got their group special recognition, these very same people would turn on their fellow members of their group to try and argue they THEMSELVES deserve even more special recognition)

 

 

 

   In all due respect, I think that's your problem. You mean well - NO ONE is doubting that or saying you don't (cept 1 or 2 who I'm sure could possibly read this post, calm down and apologize to you before agreeing with me. Maybe, who knows) - but the way you're taking the stances is rather....blind.

 

And you may think to yourself: "well my methodology isn't perfect, but at least this way I assure equality!" That's just it: you don't.

 

 

 

 

I'll wrap this up with some real life and relevant stories. True stories that actually happened and affected me life.

 

Some time after I was born, my mom had an encounter with a disabled man in town. The disabled guy was well known. Why? Well he was stuck in an electric wheelchair and largely paralyzed (could move his mouth somewhat and anything above), and more importantly, he was a f***ing ****. He got jollies out of being **** to people or even ramming them with his wheelchair, but often times even the victims themselves would LET HIM out of pity for him, or a distorted belief that it's ok to be an **** cause you're disabled. Well one day this guy tried rammed his wheelchair into my mom for whatever reason and she was understandably pissed, but of course only walked away. (say of course not because he's disabled, but because most people would walk away and not start **** or pick a fight) Later that same day, she happened to see him out the window of a cafe trying to ram another person, though this time he hit the curb and tipped his wheelchair. He was stuck there, helpless. After some consideration my mom decided to go pick him up and put him back on his wheels. After doing so, she asked "are you ok?" His response? Though he struggled to speak, he managed to piece together a nice "f*** you" before speeding off again.

 

 

  This guy, luckily, was kind of a point that had influenced how I was raised. When I was born, my mom was freaking out cause I was missing a leg and she didn't know how to raise a disabled child. By mere chance, she one day awkwardly approached a disabled couple that would later be my Godparents. Both were paralyzed from the waist down and one would later work under the Clinton administration in disabled rights (and passed away somewhat recently, RIP :C). When my mom approached them asking for help, at first they looked at her like she was crazy, but then realized why she was asking. When she asked how to raise me and what to do special for me? Their response? "You don't." You don't do anything special for me. Sure ok, if I'm in a wheelchair one day and kindly ask that you get the door for me, sure, but don't go thinking omg I'm disabled so that gives me a pass to be as lazy as I want or whatever. Be realistic about it.

 

  Best advice they could've given. I was raised in such a way that, well, just last week I met friends of friends and it took them DAYS to realize I was disabled. What finally gave me away was we had to walk down a ridiculously steep slope that had everyone uncomfortable from walking on it, and I had to warn my friends in advance that I wasn't sure how my prosthetic would handle it and so I'd need to take it slow. I don't go screaming and crying if someone takes my disabled parking space cause I know I can manage. I DON'T need it; save it for another guy who does. Likewise the bus system for my town expects people to surrender their seat to those who need it more and sometimes someone will notice my leg and offer. No, I don't need it, I'm fine. Me standing is probably about on par with you standing, so I feel it'd be unjust if I took that offer unless I truly am in pain that day.

 

The above-mentioned struggle within the disabled community? It's a struggle that so many of us grow up to be spoiled **** BECAUSE we're constantly given special treatment by people too afraid to have an opinion and say "I'm not discriminating, you're just being an entitled little ass." I've seen it so many times and it's sad. So many disabled people grow up lacking confidence, spoiled rotten or expecting special treatment because people give it to them. The pity and attention feels good and yes, as kids who don't know better, they feed off of it. You're just as capable of hurting a disabled person by enabling a personality-damaging trait to develop by pitying them as you are capable of hurting them via neglect.

   Humans adapt. Charles Darwin never said the strongest, the smartest, or the fastest survive. He said those most capable of adapting to their scenario, their living conditions and the hand that life dealt them are the ones that will survive and flourish. As such, yes, the disabled adapt to be disabled. I've gotten multiple looks for how fast I am on crutches, I've found I've got a surprising amount of upper body strength from them, and I can carry mutliple bags of groceries home and up stairs...on crutches. For you? You'd fall on your ass and hurt yourself, but this is my life, so I've adapted. People need to recognize that and realize just because the situation seems tough for you doesn't mean it's tough for the disabled person. Try to be objective with it. Ask yourself if you think they truly need the help or if it seems like it's being used as an excuse. If they ask you to open a door ok, but if they ask you to go buy their groceries....? Motherf***er if you can't buy your groceries cause you're in a wheelchair, then you're dumb as rocks, you can't adapt and you deserve to starve to death. Tell him to buy his own damned groceries.

  And just for clarity, no it's not outrageous if a guy on crutches requests help carrying groceries up stairs. :D I'm more daring than others and don't fault others for not trying. I often don't learn to run with new prosthetics because the advice on learning how to run I'm given is "JUST GO AND U'LL FALL ON UR FACE A LOT BUT DUN WORRY U'LL GET IT" and I think "yeeeeah screw that, it's not like I need to run that often in a day-to-day scenario anyways..."

 

 

 

And the Kanye West story? Everyone asks me how offended I am. The truth? When I heard someone took off their leg and waved it in the air to show him? Lucky bastard!! I wish I got handed a free excuse to take my leg off and wave it around. You ever seen how much people freak out due to that? It's fun as hell. Used to stick my leg out the school bus window for that exact reason until I got told that's too dangerous and had to stop. I promise you the two disabled people at Kanye's concert was ok, and the disabled community does NOT need nor deserve a free pity party because some idiot forgot we exist.

 

 

 

 

   So yeah, please, take that all as a lesson. Take it as two. Take it as a lesson that you cannot and will not fully understand minority groups you're not involved with, but you can't let that lead you to adamantly defend ANY minority who screams discrimination, because some of them ARE infact just entitled and using their position. Likewise, sometimes protecting a person like that actually harms them. It encourages bad habits and bad personality traits which eventually robs them of more than they realize; guess how many friends disabled wheelchair d-bag who would ram people had? He had about as many as he had functioning limbs. ;P

 

 

  I get you want gender equality. A LOT of us do. But this? This isn't it. You want gender equality? Go ask corporations why women get paid less. Go confront them about their admittance that women who want kids are less likely to get hired. If you really wanna tackle the issue and want a practical solution, the largest and most significant frontier where gender inequality is actually a real thing is the work world.

  Video games? Specifically when it involves messages spouted by people like Anita? Yeah, this isn't it. I'd be willing to bet the female protagonist quota in video games exceeds that of female protagonists found within movies or gender-neutral (aka not My Little Pony, GI Joe or shows geared towards one gender) TV shows. And more importantly, the very group so fervently spouting this feminist dogma has been caught in lies. MULTIPLE TIMES. It's time to sit down and think it through and realize if you want to support feminism, this isn't the way to do it. As I've said before, if anything Anita & Co. are HARMING feminism by making the word become synonymous with "dishonesty" and "zealot" for an entire community of people, and I'm sure that the less intelligent members of that community COULD actually learn the wrong lessons and develop into sexist individuals because of it. Ever seen a racist black guy who became racist BECAUSE of all the times he was targeted by racism? I have, it's one of the most tragic things in the world cause you wanna sympathize but at the same time the guy's a ****. They exist and it happens. And it could happen here too, with some men or gamers concluding that women are all selfish liars that seek special treatment and attention, and if they don't get it they'll try and ruin your life.

 

  Please, don't be a part of that and don't support that. ;P The side opposite to them is by no means perfect either, but it is in my opinion the more logical choice. I avoid dishonesty like the plague, regardless of the party's gender, race or other status.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Longknife

[Ganrich]

Longknife - That is one hell of a post!  I really enjoyed it and agree with it fully.

 

On the note of Video Games, specifically.  The way to change gaming to make a game that has a female protagonist that envelopes all these ideas that these feminists want or require, and make it the best it can be.  You have to change it from the inside out.  Playing the gatekeeper by controlling the media, or through sympathy from that media, is the wrong way.  You are forcing an ideology instead of trying to show the world a better one through intelligence, art, and all things that the entertainment industry "should', but doesn't always, embrace. 

[BruceVC]

 

I am a  liberal and due to the fact I grew up during Apartheid I have experienced first hand what happens when bigotry and discrimination become institutionalized. Its destroys people and severely impacts there dignity

 

So I am opposed to any form of bigotry that includes sexism, homophobia and racism. As far as sexism is concerned in the gaming industry I am not saying the entire industry needs to change and misogyny is rife  but there are  certain changes that should happen purely in the interest of  inclusivity. I don't think this means a paradigm shift in the development of all games but developers need to be aware of there entire fanbase. And many companies like Bioware and Obsidian are already aware of this and  ensure there games are inclusive to all demographics

 

 

Well if you'll give me a second, I've got a rather large wall of text I think you should read.

 

 

Allow me to give you a hypothetical:

 

 

I'm disabled....that part's not hypothetical, that's true.   I was born with one leg and have been disabled my whole life; having two legs would feel as alien to me as having one leg would feel for you. Being disabled and seeing as we're at least decently uncommon in most regions, there's this effect where oftentimes if people hear touching stories or news stories involving disabled people, they get forwarded to me. You may have heard African Americans complain they get stupid comments from white people when they're the one black friend. It sorta functions like this. Bladerunner? Yep, I've heard of him, and not on my own or because I care, but because everyone says "LOOK LONGKNIFE A DISABLED GUY WHO RUNS FAST, YOU CAN TOO!!" Ok one, no I can't cause those costs thousands of dollars and I don't have that, two, if you did some research you'd know those regularly get banned from races for making disabled guys run inhumanely fast with comparatively tiny effort, and three, who the HELL said I have this dream of running fast wtf??

   The recent story about Kanye West? Yep, got that too. Nipped it in the butt early and posted a blanket statement response on my facebook (which I rarely ever use) to stop them.

 

 

So as you can see, I too can get involved with "discrimination" or "stereotyping" or whatever you wanna call it. I put it all in quotations cause I wouldn't exactly call it that and I see no reason to freak about it.

 

 

   Now let's say, hypothetically, that I were to tell you all of that DID bother me and that I find it utterly disgusting how under-represented disabled people are in video games. You think the representation of female protagonists is barren? Try the disabled. I could easily compile a list of female protagonists that's by no means small (Samus, Lara Croft, Faith, Kazooie of Banjo and Kazooie, Bayonetta, etc etc), but you'd struggle to name a single disabled protagonist.

  And let's be real here. There is a serious struggle amidst the disabled community. But it's not the one you'd expect. And I think it's one YOU'D be wise to listen to and hear out.

 

 

 

So now for the hypothetical. Let's say I came to you claiming I was mortified by what Kanye West did and that I think we should ALL boycott him. After all, that jackass made a spectacle of two disabled people right? What an ****, everyone with common sense should boycott and shun the guy much like Ceelo Green is being boycotted for his rape comments, and anyone who disagrees simply doesn't understand, sympathize with and respect the disabled community enough. We don't have a fancy word like sexist or racist (proof of how discriminated against we are!!), but if there was one, it'd apply to Kanye and anyone that refuses to boycott him.

 

  I get the sense that I could say the above paragraph to you and you'd be behind me 100%. Or hell, maybe you even read it and thought it's a good idea with extremely valid points, hypothetical or not.

 

Here's the problem....

 

When you lack a personal motivation where the situation effects you directly and on a personal level, there's this element of not knowing how much is too much. You cannot accurately judge the difference between "equality" and "entitlement."  You can, but if you do so and you get an angry, entitled disabled person screaming at you for how hateful and discriminatory you're being...? You'll likely back down and take his side and adopt his stance. You dunno if he's right about you or if he's actually entitled. So, in fear of being discriminatory and with an attitude of loving everyone and wanting equality for all and knowing equality is the right thing to do, you adopt his argument and do as he says.

  So how do you know when you've wound up being a shield for an entitled person who's self-interested and doesn't actually care about the cause beyond how it can benefit them personally? Someone who doesn't only want equality, but rather wants their group to have an advantage and to get more, and all that only due to self-interest and the fact it'd profit them themselves? (aka if they succeeded and got their group special recognition, these very same people would turn on their fellow members of their group to try and argue they THEMSELVES deserve even more special recognition)

 

 

 

   In all due respect, I think that's your problem. You mean well - NO ONE is doubting that or saying you don't (cept 1 or 2 who I'm sure could possibly read this post, calm down and apologize to you before agreeing with me. Maybe, who knows) - but the way you're taking the stances is rather....blind.

 

And you may think to yourself: "well my methodology isn't perfect, but at least this way I assure equality!" That's just it: you don't.

 

 

 

 

I'll wrap this up with some real life and relevant stories. True stories that actually happened and affected me life.

 

Some time after I was born, my mom had an encounter with a disabled man in town. The disabled guy was well known. Why? Well he was stuck in an electric wheelchair and largely paralyzed (could move his mouth somewhat and anything above), and more importantly, he was a f***ing ****. He got jollies out of being **** to people or even ramming them with his wheelchair, but often times even the victims themselves would LET HIM out of pity for him, or a distorted belief that it's ok to be an **** cause you're disabled. Well one day this guy tried rammed his wheelchair into my mom for whatever reason and she was understandably pissed, but of course only walked away. (say of course not because he's disabled, but because most people would walk away and not start **** or pick a fight) Later that same day, she happened to see him out the window of a cafe trying to ram another person, though this time he hit the curb and tipped his wheelchair. He was stuck there, helpless. After some consideration my mom decided to go pick him up and put him back on his wheels. After doing so, she asked "are you ok?" His response? Though he struggled to speak, he managed to piece together a nice "f*** you" before speeding off again.

 

 

  This guy, luckily, was kind of a point that had influenced how I was raised. When I was born, my mom was freaking out cause I was missing a leg and she didn't know how to raise a disabled child. By mere chance, she one day awkwardly approached a disabled couple that would later be my Godparents. Both were paralyzed from the waist down and one would later work under the Clinton administration in disabled rights (and passed away somewhat recently, RIP :C). When my mom approached them asking for help, at first they looked at her like she was crazy, but then realized why she was asking. When she asked how to raise me and what to do special for me? Their response? "You don't." You don't do anything special for me. Sure ok, if I'm in a wheelchair one day and kindly ask that you get the door for me, sure, but don't go thinking omg I'm disabled so that gives me a pass to be as lazy as I want or whatever. Be realistic about it.

 

  Best advice they could've given. I was raised in such a way that, well, just last week I met friends of friends and it took them DAYS to realize I was disabled. What finally gave me away was we had to walk down a ridiculously steep slope that had everyone uncomfortable from walking on it, and I had to warn my friends in advance that I wasn't sure how my prosthetic would handle it and so I'd need to take it slow. I don't go screaming and crying if someone takes my disabled parking space cause I know I can manage. I DON'T need it; save it for another guy who does. Likewise the bus system for my town expects people to surrender their seat to those who need it more and sometimes someone will notice my leg and offer. No, I don't need it, I'm fine. Me standing is probably about on par with you standing, so I feel it'd be unjust if I took that offer unless I truly am in pain that day.

 

The above-mentioned struggle within the disabled community? It's a struggle that so many of us grow up to be spoiled **** BECAUSE we're constantly given special treatment by people too afraid to have an opinion and say "I'm not discriminating, you're just being an entitled little ass." I've seen it so many times and it's sad. So many disabled people grow up lacking confidence, spoiled rotten or expecting special treatment because people give it to them. The pity and attention feels good and yes, as kids who don't know better, they feed off of it. You're just as capable of hurting a disabled person by enabling a personality-damaging trait to develop by pitying them as you are capable of hurting them via neglect.

   Humans adapt. Charles Darwin never said the strongest, the smartest, or the fastest survive. He said those most capable of adapting to their scenario, their living conditions and the hand that life dealt them are the ones that will survive and flourish. As such, yes, the disabled adapt to be disabled. I've gotten multiple looks for how fast I am on crutches, I've found I've got a surprising amount of upper body strength from them, and I can carry mutliple bags of groceries home and up stairs...on crutches. For you? You'd fall on your ass and hurt yourself, but this is my life, so I've adapted. People need to recognize that and realize just because the situation seems tough for you doesn't mean it's tough for the disabled person. Try to be objective with it. Ask yourself if you think they truly need the help or if it seems like it's being used as an excuse. If they ask you to open a door ok, but if they ask you to go buy their groceries....? Motherf***er if you can't buy your groceries cause you're in a wheelchair, then you're dumb as rocks, you can't adapt and you deserve to starve to death. Tell him to buy his own damned groceries.

  And just for clarity, no it's not outrageous if a guy on crutches requests help carrying groceries up stairs. :D I'm more daring than others and don't fault others for not trying. I often don't learn to run with new prosthetics because the advice on learning how to run I'm given is "JUST GO AND U'LL FALL ON UR FACE A LOT BUT DUN WORRY U'LL GET IT" and I think "yeeeeah screw that, it's not like I need to run that often in a day-to-day scenario anyways..."

 

 

 

And the Kanye West story? Everyone asks me how offended I am. The truth? When I heard someone took off their leg and waved it in the air to show him? Lucky bastard!! I wish I got handed a free excuse to take my leg off and wave it around. You ever seen how much people freak out due to that? It's fun as hell. Used to stick my leg out the school bus window for that exact reason until I got told that's too dangerous and had to stop. I promise you the two disabled people at Kanye's concert was ok, and the disabled community does NOT need nor deserve a free pity party because some idiot forgot we exist.

 

 

 

 

   So yeah, please, take that all as a lesson. Take it as two. Take it as a lesson that you cannot and will not fully understand minority groups you're not involved with, but you can't let that lead you to adamantly defend ANY minority who screams discrimination, because some of them ARE infact just entitled and using their position. Likewise, sometimes protecting a person like that actually harms them. It encourages bad habits and bad personality traits which eventually robs them of more than they realize; guess how many friends disabled wheelchair d-bag who would ram people had? He had about as many as he had functioning limbs. ;P

 

 

  I get you want gender equality. A LOT of us do. But this? This isn't it. You want gender equality? Go ask corporations why women get paid less. Go confront them about their admittance that women who want kids are less likely to get hired. If you really wanna tackle the issue and want a practical solution, the largest and most significant frontier where gender inequality is actually a real thing is the work world.

  Video games? Specifically when it involves messages spouted by people like Anita? Yeah, this isn't it. I'd be willing to bet the female protagonist quota in video games exceeds that of female protagonists found within movies or gender-neutral (aka not My Little Pony, GI Joe or shows geared towards one gender) TV shows. And more importantly, the very group so fervently spouting this feminist dogma has been caught in lies. MULTIPLE TIMES. It's time to sit down and think it through and realize if you want to support feminism, this isn't the way to do it. As I've said before, if anything Anita & Co. are HARMING feminism by making the word become synonymous with "dishonesty" and "zealot" for an entire community of people, and I'm sure that the less intelligent members of that community COULD actually learn the wrong lessons and develop into sexist individuals because of it. Ever seen a racist black guy who became racist BECAUSE of all the times he was targeted by racism? I have, it's one of the most tragic things in the world cause you wanna sympathize but at the same time the guy's a ****. They exist and it happens. And it could happen here too, with some men or gamers concluding that women are all selfish liars that seek special treatment and attention, and if they don't get it they'll try and ruin your life.

 

  Please, don't be a part of that and don't support that. ;P The side opposite to them is by no means perfect either, but it is in my opinion the more logical choice. I avoid dishonesty like the plague, regardless of the party's gender, race or other status.

 

 

That's an excellent post, thanks for sharing. You've raised some good points. I'll respond generally

 

I believe that human beings in a modern world should conduct themselves in certain way that doesn't offend or hurt the feelings of others, especially if they are in the public limelight and have been made successful through a career like music which is dependent on there fans. Like Kayne West . How people should conduct themselves may seem subjective but its not that difficult to understand what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So for example what Kayne West did  was completely insensitive but did he know the fan was disabled? It doesn't seem like it but he does need to apologize for obviously creating a very embarrassing situation. But to he honest I think Kayne West is completely self absorbed and narcissistic. He is a celebrity who cares primarily about one thing, his image and that's fine if that's the legacy he is concerned about. I admire someone like Angelina Jolie much more who has done really  good work by using her celebrity status to raise awareness to various causes through the UN

 

 

You right that I am not a minority in the sense I am not gay, a women or black and I personally have never been the victim of real and sustained bigotry. But does that mean I can't empathize with people who are discriminated against  or be opposed to it? I have first hand experience with homophobia and racism and I have seen how humiliating and harmful these kinds of feelings can be . These forms of bigotry are real, there are people who wake up every day who have decided that because of someone's sexual orientation they are automatically a lesser person who doesn't deserve the same respect as a "normal straight " person. And there are people who think that the colour of persons skin automatically means they aren't as intelligent as a person with white skin, And there are people who think that because a person is a female there are certain areas in society and conversations they must stay out of. I am opposed to any of these generalisations that are ultimately based on one thing...." a dislike of a certain person because they are different to you". Its as simple as that, there is no proven genetic difference that automatically makes someone inferior. Its because they are different to you and so some people feel the need to undermine that person because they are different. And I will continue to be opposed to this type of perspective

 

Finally I have said several times that I  think Anita is doing the greater cause of gender equality more harm than good because she is confrontational and tends to incite people rather that educate people. But the issue  I have is the generalisations we now see on forums like this where the words " SJW " is loosely thrown around as an insult whenever someone wants to dismiss anything that is related to any issue about relevant social justice transformation. For example someone says " we need more inclusivity in games", instead of people actually taking the time to read the article we see comments like " typical SJW rant"

 

So people are demonstrating the exact same behaviour they say they are opposed to, they are painting all SJ initiatives with the same brush. They are doing the same thing that they say they dislike Anita for where she says things about "all gamers " and makes generalisations. They aren't interested in looking at the individual case but they just dismiss it

 

So end of the day most of us seem to agree the gaming industry needs to be more inclusive on certain levels. I think the disagreement is how do we achieve it, personally I believe constant awareness and visibility is necessary because normally  people don't change there minds about the status quo unless there is pressure. Because for most people they believe that the current situation is fine. In other words games are inclusive enough. And this is where we have a disagreement of opinion

[Vaeliorin]

But the issue I have is the generalisations we now see on forums like this where the words " SJW " is loosely thrown around as an insult whenever someone wants to dismiss anything that is related to any issue about relevant social justice transformation. For example someone says " we need more inclusivity in games", instead of people actually taking the time to read the article we see comments like " typical SJW rant"

Just out of curiosity, why do you assume the person didn't read the article when making that comment? Though I can't recall that I've ever bothered to type it out, that's been my response to a lot of the articles I've encountered.

 

I'm all for equality, but honestly, ranting at people and demanding equality isn't the way to get it to happen. It turns off people like me who are for "the cause", but don't want to be associated with it because of the insane rantings of the hardcore (heck, sometimes, just for a moment, it makes me hope the whole thing fails, just because I get really sick of being told how horrible I am and how easy my life is because I'm a straight white guy, and I don't want the ranters to get the satisfaction of success.)

 

Edit: Meant equality, said inclusiveness. Late night posting = bad.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Vaeliorin

[BruceVC]

 

But the issue I have is the generalisations we now see on forums like this where the words " SJW " is loosely thrown around as an insult whenever someone wants to dismiss anything that is related to any issue about relevant social justice transformation. For example someone says " we need more inclusivity in games", instead of people actually taking the time to read the article we see comments like " typical SJW rant"

Just out of curiosity, why do you assume the person didn't read the article when making that comment? Though I can't recall that I've ever bothered to type it out, that's been my response to a lot of the articles I've encountered.

 

I'm all for equality, but honestly, ranting at people and demanding equality isn't the way to get it to happen. It turns off people like me who are for "the cause", but don't want to be associated with it because of the insane rantings of the hardcore (heck, sometimes, just for a moment, it makes me hope the whole thing fails, just because I get really sick of being told how horrible I am and how easy my life is because I'm a straight white guy, and I don't want the ranters to get the satisfaction of success.)

 

Edit: Meant equality, said inclusiveness. Late night posting = bad.

 

 

I used the wrong word, I should have used "people don't really try to understand it", not read it

 

So some  people will gloss over an article about some SJ development and assume its some kind of guilt trip or personal attack on them and not see the  big picture. And this applies to certain people from the SJ side who also don't seem to respect a dissenting opinion

[aluminiumtrioxid]

We don't have a fancy word like sexist or racist (proof of how discriminated against we are!!)

 

Never heard the word "ableist"?

[Malcador]

What about those of use with vision problems, what has the social science mill come up with ?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

What about those of use with vision problems, what has the social science mill come up with ?

 

I think discrimination along those lines also falls under the umbrella of ableism (mental illnesses, too, btw). 

[Malcador]

Interesting how these terms came up, I guess they figured they need technical jargon of their own or so.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Interesting how these terms came up, I guess they figured they need technical jargon of their own or so.

 

I sense dismissiveness

[Malcador]

No, that would be degreeism...majorism ? Hmm.

[Nonek]

What about those of use with vision problems, what has the social science mill come up with ?

 

Chronic masturbators?

 

Seriously though I fail to see what inclusivity measures need to be included for games to aid minorities, colour blind mode is a very nice addition, as is a game that can be played mouse only for those whom are movement restricted, subtitles are good for the deaf, but all these are already being implemented to some degree.

 

The wife has no problem playing games, except with poorly designed and insulting caricatures like Isabella (and fairly much all of the other poorly written characters) in Dragon Age 2, dragging quality down. And she does not mind playing as a man, an alien, a robot or a woman as it is escapism. I'm curious what more is needed? The fact that women now outnumber men in some forms of gaming says to me that it is inclusive already, are they overcoming hurdles to do this?

 

It would be nice to see more ethnically diverse worlds, and that is something i've long hoped and campaigned for, though obviously not at the cost of the worlds internal consistency. In a dark age or medieval setting where there is no magical transportation, and the average man or woman rarely ventures beyond the local market town, ethnic diversity will not be as feasible, except at seaports and recognised trade-routes. Crossroads of the world such as Byzantium, where one can see a great mass of peoples from all over the world, drink in foreign cultures and become lost in the bustle and pace of the exotic. Or Rome where all Christendom comes in pilgrimage, traders come to partake of the legendary wealth and emissaries from far distant lands arrive to politic and spy.

 

I'd be curious to hear what inclusivity measures are needed.

[BruceVC]

 

What about those of use with vision problems, what has the social science mill come up with ?

 

Chronic masturbators?

 

Seriously though I fail to see what inclusivity measures need to be included for games to aid minorities, colour blind mode is a very nice addition, as is a game that can be played mouse only for those whom are movement restricted, subtitles are good for the deaf, but all these are already being implemented to some degree.

 

The wife has no problem playing games, except with poorly designed and insulting caricatures like Isabella (and fairly much all of the other poorly written characters) in Dragon Age 2, dragging quality down. And she does not mind playing as a man, an alien, a robot or a woman as it is escapism. I'm curious what more is needed? The fact that women now outnumber men in some forms of gaming says to me that it is inclusive already, are they overcoming hurdles to do this?

 

It would be nice to see more ethnically diverse worlds, and that is something i've long hoped and campaigned for, though obviously not at the cost of the worlds internal consistency. In a dark age or medieval setting where there is no magical transportation, and the average man or woman rarely ventures beyond the local market town, ethnic diversity will not be as feasible, except at seaports and recognised trade-routes. Crossroads of the world such as Byzantium, where one can see a great mass of peoples from all over the world, drink in foreign cultures and become lost in the bustle and pace of the exotic. Or Rome where all Christendom comes in pilgrimage, traders come to partake of the legendary wealth and emissaries from far distant lands arrive to politic and spy.

 

I'd be curious to hear what inclusivity measures are needed.

 

 

Hi Nonek "waves"

 

I see you have descended from your anti-SJ fortress  to ravage and desecrate  the land of people who believe in equality in gaming 

 

But I'm impressed you were able to dismiss Isabella without mentioning her attire, so that's progress....you getting there

 

So what would you like to know about the word inclusivity, I assume you mean in the context of what we ask for when we say " us SJW want games to be more inclusive" ?

[Malcador]

Well, people with missing limbs should be able to use some intermediary device, but that's kind of outside the realm of the developer. Oh wait, I think we have to check our privelege here.

[Nonek]

 

I'd be curious to hear what inclusivity measures are needed.

 

 

So what would you like to know about the word inclusivity, I assume you mean in the context of what we ask for when we say " us SJW want games to be more inclusive" ?

 

 

What I said in my previous post.

[BruceVC]

 

 

I'd be curious to hear what inclusivity measures are needed.

 

 

So what would you like to know about the word inclusivity, I assume you mean in the context of what we ask for when we say " us SJW want games to be more inclusive" ?

 

 

What I said in my previous post.

 

 

 

 

 

I'd be curious to hear what inclusivity measures are needed.

 

 

So what would you like to know about the word inclusivity, I assume you mean in the context of what we ask for when we say " us SJW want games to be more inclusive" ?

 

 

What I said in my previous post.

 

 

Short and to the point, no frivolity around your posts. I can respect that

 

Its actually an excellent question Nonek, an excellent question. Because many people assume when us SJW say we want " inclusivity in games " this means a paradigm shift around how games are developed. But the good news is it doesn't mean that at all, there are just some reasonable adjustments that need to be considered

 

Also the word inclusivity is subjective to some SJW but I would say  most of us agree on two important points that we would like games to include  

 

• Less objectification of women in games. There is nothing wrong with the positioning of aesthetics around the female form but it needs to be done tastefully and in way that doesn't make people feel uncomfortable. Also female characters need to have  a real purpose in the game outside of eye-candy
• Also we need to have female protagonists and female lead characters as a choice. Many companies like Bioware and Obsidian already do this but then you get Ubisoft which fails dismally in this regard. This shouldn't apply to indie developers who have limited budgets and purely from a cost perspective may not have the resources to offer male and female characters

 

So that would be main factors around inclusivity IMO. But others are welcome to add more

•  

[Gfted1]

@Longknife: I only made it into the first paragraph so maybe you mentioned it but, do you have a prosthetic leg or are you in a wheel chair?

[BruceVC]

@Longknife: I only made it into the first paragraph so maybe you mentioned it but, do you have a prosthetic leg or are you in a wheel chair?

 

He uses a prosthetic leg

[Nonek]

Objectification of women, isn't that totally subjective and dependant on context? Some dislike the stylisation of Dragons Crown with its very powerful but sexualised male and female characters, others dislike the brain dead slaves of Bioware whom follow the protagonist for years at a time for no good reason, and cannot do anything themselves, or even dress themselves for the climate or combat. It's a personal matter isn't it? So long as they suit the games aesthetic nothing should be out of bounds in my opinion, with obvious exceptions.

 

More female protagonists, isn't this up to the developer and the story they wish to tell? I mean if they want a genderless AI, a Nubian eunuch, a Lovecraftian alien entity or any thing else that is totally up to them isn't it, or are you saying that they must make content according to your dictates? Shouldn't they design what they want to? Amy Hennig a veteran designer and industry stalwart makes some of the best male characters around, who exactly am I to dictate to her what she wants to make? Chris Avellone writes some of the finest female characters in games, I would not whine at him and demand he make Kreia a man.

 

Edit: In fact another even better example of supposed objectification of women is the Witcher 2, which supposedly is proudly misogynist. Yet it has some of the the best written, most able, powerful, self motivated and intrinsically linked to the plot female characters in any video game. Philippa Eilhart outwits the protagonist, almost seizes a kingdom, reshapes the north, beards a Dragon and launches a moral crusade for equality, and yet many SJF's would have us believe that she is a weak addendum to the plot, when she in fact drives it far more than virtually any man in the game, certainly more than the protagonist.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Nonek

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

It would be nice to see more ethnically diverse worlds, and that is something i've long hoped and campaigned for, though obviously not at the cost of the worlds internal consistency. In a dark age or medieval setting where there is no magical transportation, and the average man or woman rarely ventures beyond the local market town, ethnic diversity will not be as feasible, except at seaports and recognised trade-routes. Crossroads of the world such as Byzantium, where one can see a great mass of peoples from all over the world, drink in foreign cultures and become lost in the bustle and pace of the exotic. Or Rome where all Christendom comes in pilgrimage, traders come to partake of the legendary wealth and emissaries from far distant lands arrive to politic and spy.

 

 

...I'd be happy to see an Exalted CRPG, or a Dark Heresy one. (The Imperium of Man at first glance doesn't exactly seem like a paragon of progressivity, but 40.000 years of intermingling, realistically, should result in much a more varied array of skin tones than depicted in the official artwork, not to mention that the image of a unified humanity that has transcended petty distractions like racial discrimination in order to be more efficient at being Fascistic Space Nazis to everyone else plays nicely into the themes of the game.)

[Malcador]

A proper DH CRPG would end up being rated AO.