Second impressions thread! [Build 278 version]

[IndiraLightfoot]

^Yep, totally agree with Sensuki. Melee characters aren't that great in armor. Ranged nudists all the way, or at least most of your party as ranged nudists. Just send your tank in as the sacrificial lamb while your ranged nudists mop up. And don't forget to take your armor off your other melee characters like the Rogue while your Fighter is tanking.

No wonder some of my fights took several minutes. I had two fighter tanks, a cipher that mixed melee with a few cipher abilities, and those BB guys. The only one that really used a ranged weapon at times was my BB fighter and his arbalest, and I had the rogue try out a bow the last half an hour, down in the ruins. I played the game wrong. I should have played it like beach volleyball instead, the net being replaced with a tinman.

[Sensuki]

could you cancel commands by just ordering them to do something else or is there a cancel hot key?

In the IE games, right click has a special movement/cancel function. Pillars of Eternity had the same thing, as well as an individual cancel mapped to the X button. You could cancel animations before the hit frame and casting before the cast point.

 

This is not working in v278

 

No wonder some of my fights took several minutes. I had two fighter tanks, a cipher that mixed melee with a few cipher abilities, and those BB guys. The only one that really used a ranged weapon at times was my BB fighter and his arbalest, and I had the rogue try out a bow the last half an hour, down in the ruins. I played the game wrong. I should have played it like beach volleyball instead, the net being replaced with a tinman.

To be honest it's kind of sh1tty that the game pidgeonholes you into playing how it does currently, definitely needs tuning.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Sensuki

[Sensuki]

If Armor was a percentage reduction rather than flat, that would fix the issue with slower weapons being more powerful, and attack speed would then be equal to raw percentile damage increase for the purpose of DPS.

 

Attack speed numbers could also be tweaked so there was a power curve where there were certain points where 1H fast & 2H fell off in terms of efficacy, which might be more interesting/tactical.

 

However it would not fix the issue with ranged nudism.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

I must admit that I was pretty "non-stat" when playing, I just played it like in D&D, like I'm doing now in BG:EE. In a weird way, you could say that I roleplayed combat, unlike when I play D3, where I pay attention to the stats all the time, where DPS is king, and you need a right mix of resistances, armour solved in one way or the other (even dodging). Here, I hardly get the system. DT, that's like armour class, yea? Damage threshold? Some of the fights that were the worst for me had guards in the ruins with DT over a hundred or just below, but that I noticed at the end, realizing, heck, armour is back with a vengeance in this game. I need to L2P, apparently.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I'm with you on this Indira. I find the PoE system to be a huge WTF. I have no idea of the stats, some of the things like DT, the percentages... oh the percentages. There's so many percentages. Percentages on weapons, percentages on this, percentages on that. eg. If there's a 50% percentage on a weapon for something, I have no idea what that 50% means and how meaningful it is or even how it's worked out and what's it's based on. The percentages look really huge, in a 'wow I get 50% extra damage' but that might translate into something like +2 damage when you're already dealing 20 damage. I really wish they went with a system where it was like a +2 weapon with +1 poison damage. Like it was in the IE game. I can understand that.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[IndiraLightfoot]

I'm with you on this Indira. I find the PoE system to be a huge WTF. I have no idea of the stats, some of the things like DT, the percentages... oh the percentages. There's so many percentages. Percentages on weapons, percentages on this, percentages on that. eg. If there's a 50% percentage on a weapon for something, I have no idea what that 50% means and how meaningful it is or even how it's worked out and what's it's based on. The percentages look really huge, in a 'wow I get 50% extra damage' but that might translate into something like +2 damage when you're already dealing 20 damage. I really wish they went with a system where it was a +2 weapon with +1 poison damage. I can understand that.

~This times a million!

To put it harshly, I just want this myriad of percentages to go away.

It's not possible to take in and take stock of. Like you capture here in a few sentences, all those percentages intersect, and at a point that you'd need a huge 4D graph for, in order to understand what's working well or nor, what's blocking decently or not, what's resisting a bit or not.

In a big way, I feel a need to urge Josh to simplify this, to think about the player reading the feedback, the player who mouses over the info, but who currently has a snowball's chance in hell of grasping what's a good decision or not. Oh, it's not like you and I are new to CRPGs and ARPGs either. *Sigh!*

 

EDIT: I must clarify that it's not the percentages per se that are confusing. One by one, what they do is pretty straightforward. It's when you interweave them it all goes perplexing and esoteric. Add to this, other party members affecting the same percentages, for instance paladin auras or the priest casts interdiction, and also add to this similar spells and abilities from enemies, and you have a miserable situation.

Edited September 5, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sensuki]

Yeah percentages make you actually do the math before understanding how much they give. One of the benefits of integers is you know how much they give: +1 damage gives you +1 damage. +1 second duration gives you +1 second duration.

 

Percentages make it harder to follow. For instance -50% Recovery time from Plate mail. What does that mean? Well it means that you have to do the math of (Action Animation Speed + Recovery Time) + ([Action Animation Speed + Recovery Time] * %Style Penalty) + ([Action Animation Speed + Recovery Time] * .5 {Armor Penalty for Plate Mail})

 

For a 2H weapon that gives you (in seconds) (2) + (1) + (1). Or you could just use logic if you already knew the numbers.

 

You wouldn't have to do this if the Base Attack Time was calculated for you on the UI, but you'd still have to work out your DPS efficacy vs DT with damage and attack speed though.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Sensuki

[Silverbarr]

So, to summarise in a basic fashion. Being able to kite is not a legit strategy, but being able to play more effectively with naked characters is?

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Sensuki is right. Oh and I meant armor, not weapons. 50% recovery time doesn't mean anything to me. If however I put some Plate mail in my Fighters inventory and I click on the description and the maths was already worked out by the game and it gave a result of +1 second recovery time, then that's easy to understand. If I then put that same armor in my Priest's inventory and click on the inventory and it worked out the maths with my Priest's abilities and it gave +2 seconds recovery time result, then that's easy to understand. At the moment, I have to work our the maths and I don't want to. I want the information given to me so I can make a quick decision between if this mail or plate is better or worse. I want to get on playing with the game.

 

And some of the percentages may turn out to be similar in that 20% Leather and 35% chain mail recovery time for different armor are the same for one of my characters. Both might work out to be 1 second recovery time and 40% tips me over to 2 seconds with plate. Or something like that. Something simple where I can click on an item and it tells me in simple terms how long will recovery take in seconds, not percentages. It's another reason why the nude strategy is so good, I don't need to work this out.

 

But even the weapons I don't understand with plus melee damage on ranged weapons and plus ranged damage on melee weapons. That doesn't make any sense to me. There's just a lot of miscellaneous stuff I don't understand with items in this game.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Ashen Rohk]

 

Started a playthrough.

 

Somehow, pathfinding is actually worse. And as a chanter, I need to be able to dismiss my summons (issues regarding selection and movement of them too). I got stuck on the ledge with the dead Skaen cultist, my skeletons on the ground miles away somehow and three wyrms blocking my entry back into the cave. Had to reload to get rid of them. Also, can you make a decision whether or not chants automatically start in combat? It seems half and half at the moment.

[Stun]

what gameplay purpose does recovery even serve? (other than reload times)

Recovery serves several purposes.

 

 

1) It's time for Change! D&D had rounds. But D&D is Bad, m'kay. Therefore no more rounds. Instead, your actions are on a timer now.

2) We wanted the awesomesause MMO feel, but when we floated the idea of cooldowns for stuff early on, everyone started whining and we have no idea why! so we managed to repackage the concept and call it 'recovery'... Success! Fooled everyone!

3) Balance! No longer will the heavy armored guy be able to swing his axe as often as the medium armored guy

4) Because it just makes sense that your Chanter chant...slower(?) in heavy armor than if he's nekkid

5) Because We watched various Lets Plays on Youtube and noticed that players were having more fun with recovery times than without.

6) Because just adopting weapon speed factors is so dull.

7) Come on, come on, do the Convolution with me!

8.) Because too much heavy armor-wearing is degenerate gameplay, so we added the obligatory gameplay price tag to it.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Stun

[Sensuki]

Sensuki is right. Oh and I meant armor, not weapons. 50% recovery time doesn't mean anything to me. If however I put some Plate mail in my Fighters inventory and I click on the description and the maths was already worked out by the game and it gave a result of +1 second recovery time, then that's easy to understand. If I then put that same armor in my Priest's inventory and click on the inventory and it worked out the maths with my Priest's abilities and it gave +2 seconds recovery time result, then that's easy to understand. At the moment, I have to work our the maths and I don't want to. I want the information given to me so I can make a quick decision between if this mail or plate is better or worse. I want to get on playing with the game.

 

And some of the percentages may turn out to be similar in that 20% Leather and 35% chain mail recovery time for different armor are the same for one of my characters. Both might work out to be 1 second recovery time and 40% tips me over to 2 seconds with plate. Or something like that. Something simple where I can click on an item and it tells me in simple terms how long will recovery take in seconds, not percentages. It's another reason why the nude strategy is so good, I don't need to work this out.

 

But even the weapons I don't understand with plus melee damage on ranged weapons and plus ranged damage on melee weapons. That doesn't make any sense to me. There's just a lot of miscellaneous stuff I don't understand with items in this game.

The solution is simple:

 

There should be an Actual Damage and Actual BAT (Base Attack Time) displayed in the inventory screen preferably one for each weapon slot.

 

The item should display the base attack time in seconds on the item tooltip and item description (which includes the length of the animation frames and recovery time frames). When you equip the item, the actual damage (including bonuses/penalties) and actual base attack time (including bonuses/penalties) are calculated and displayed under/next to the weapon set.

 

You should then be able to mouse over them and see the formula that makes them up

Edited September 5, 2014 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

Sensuki: Something like that would mean a huge step forward. And please drop the percentages, use small integers instead, like Hiro wrote. OE, you won't regret it!

 

EDIT: Also, inspired by Stun's incredibly funny run-down of what recovery is for (because he delivered serious points in among the jokes), it is high time for OE and for us to ask ourselves the BIG QUESTION:

 

Is combat fun this way?

 

(MMO-ish tank pushed to the frontline, loadouts from the rear, rinse and repeat.)

 

Are we enjoying it? Are we frustrated because it's all new? Or are we frustrated because it simply is not fun?

 

I'm asking this, because this is a perfect opportunity to rectify combat and make it into something that most people intuitively enjoy and understand. Let's not waste it, peeps.

Edited September 5, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[archangel979]

I would also like them to cut all numbers by half. There is no need to have MMO level numbers, I hate that ****.

[Captain Shrek]

I would also like them to cut all numbers by half. There is no need to have MMO level numbers, I hate that ****.

Its the problem of large numbers: They are pretty much useless and manage to spoil the feel of the game - as items have to scale ridiculously fast from +1 to +50.  It is best to go the non-epic DnD way and stick with numbers in the range 0-20.

[Sensuki]

Large numbers (of Health and Damage) are actually *required* because of the DT system. There's like 10-12 types of armor or something and Josh has staggered them in 1 DT intervals.

 

D&D numbers wouldn't work because something like 5-8 damage for instance (one of his earliest examples of a Longsword damage) would do nothing against 8 DT.

 

Is combat fun this way?

 

(MMO-ish tank pushed to the frontline, loadouts from the rear, rinse and repeat.)

 

Are we enjoying it? Are we frustrated because it's all new? Or are we frustrated because it simply is not fun?

 

I'm asking this, because this is a perfect opportunity to rectify combat and make it into something that most people intuitively enjoy and understand. Let's not waste it, peeps.

I don't think so. I actually don't mind the higher amount of micromanagement, but some people - such as the majority of the RPGCodex think it's horrible and that the system would be way better if it was turn-based because it seems you pause very often.

 

What I'm not enjoying is that there seems to be little flexibility in how combat plays out. There's one optimal way and the rest are not as good. The IE games wasn't really like that at all. You could cheese stuff, sure but if you played normally there were a variety of different playstyles you could use for party setups.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Sensuki

[nipsen]

 

I would also like them to cut all numbers by half. There is no need to have MMO level numbers, I hate that ****.

Its the problem of large numbers: They are pretty much useless and manage to spoil the feel of the game - as items have to scale ridiculously fast from +1 to +50.  It is best to go the non-epic DnD way and stick with numbers in the range 0-20.

 

Because that always makes more sense. Also, everything should be measured in yards and pounds. Because, really, who in the world doesn't find the fact that 14 pounds is one Stone - completely intuitive?

[Stun]

I would also like them to cut all numbers by half. There is no need to have MMO level numbers, I hate that ****.

I called it.. 2 years ago, I called it.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Sensuki: That alone needs to be reworked, then. Right now. combat is a bit like getting gum in your hair. If you try to be delicate about it, it just gets worse, and it soon becomes an indissoluble mess. However, if you cut it (that's the only way), you have a solution.

Edited September 5, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sensuki]

I personally think it's workable with the right tuning. I think the Health system can be made to function semi-properly with some ratio / number tweaking. I think that Weapon viability can be improved with the right tweaking. I think that combat feel can be improved by making it feel more fluid. Right now it feels disjointed.

 

Very soon I will have a massive thread coming with all of my combat suggestions. I've been working on them for days and days and I want to make sure I have mathematical and logical backups and explanations to go with my suggestions. That should make it very easy to see their merits. Matt516, the guy who did the DPS spreadsheets is helping me out with this.

 

It will cover the attribute system, attack & recovery and movement in combat primarily, and raise a lot more issues that I think are preventing enjoyment of combat.

 

What I don't have a solution for is how to make armor viable for Ranged characters, or how to make the Attribute bonuses from Race or Culture more meaningful - I have ambiguous ideas only, nothing solid.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

Sensuki: I'm looking forward to that thread. I was almost about to start one myself, but reading the Combat suggestions thread, I reckoned it was too general. Your more detailed approach sounds great at this point. It all comes down to fun, clarity and options.

[Sensuki]

It will be verbose, probably several thousand words, with DPS graphs and everything.

[Uomoz]

Sensuki: Something like that would mean a huge step forward. And please drop the percentages, use small integers instead, like Hiro wrote. OE, you won't regret it!

 

EDIT: Also, inspired by Stun's incredibly funny run-down of what recovery is for (because he delivered serious points in among the jokes), it is high time for OE and for us to ask ourselves the BIG QUESTION:

 

Is combat fun this way?

 

(MMO-ish tank pushed to the frontline, loadouts from the rear, rinse and repeat.)

 

Are we enjoying it? Are we frustrated because it's all new? Or are we frustrated because it simply is not fun?

 

I'm asking this, because this is a perfect opportunity to rectify combat and make it into something that most people intuitively enjoy and understand. Let's not waste it, peeps.

 

 

About integers: They should display both, the % increase and the resulting values for the specific situation (ex. depending on wepoan type). Like 8-12 + 50%(4-6) = 12-18

 

Combat: combat is REALLY fun. Imho a step in the right direction compared to IE games. Feels way less cheesy and gamey, more tactical. And btw ("MMO-ish tank pushed to the frontline, loadouts from the rear, rinse and repeat.") how did IE games work exactly? The same identical way?

 

You are probably mostly frustrated because it's new.

 

This is the perfect opportunity to use a new ruleset, learn it, and feel that cool sensation of mastering a game from scratch.

[Sensuki]

How did IE games work exactly? The same identical way?

Not really. Miss and Hit was not normalized in the IE games so it was perfectly safe to have High AC non-tanks at the front.

 

In the 2E games, Thieves, Wizards and straight Druids were armor restricted, so obviously you had to be careful with them.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

This is the perfect opportunity to use a new ruleset, learn it, and feel that cool sensation of mastering a game from scratch.

 

Heh! You're sure selling it in a nice way!

 

Let's hope it's just me being frustrated over the newness of it all. After all, when I began playing the IE games, I was already a PnP D&Der for years, plus more years under my belt with the SSI games. It's well know that many people found BG1 extremely frustrating if they were new to the entire concept of THACOs, AC, etc.

 

Obviously, any percentages could always run in the background, black box style too. I suggest, keep it only low integer based, it's a no-brainer, really.

 

As for the IE games, using that MMO tactic only got you that far. More often than not, you had plenty of other ways of solving various encounters, so that's only true for a fraction of it. The options were considerably more diverse, even down to stuff upheaving both those roles: tanks and casters at the back. I enjoyed druids a lot, for instance, and using summons in tactical ways.

Edited September 5, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot