Second impressions thread! [Build 278 version]

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

That could work but there are some potential logic issues: e.g. fire bow, switch to melee weapon set, move until Recovery expires, switch to ranged set, fire.

 

Put a penalty on switching weapons that is greater then the recovery time.

 

Or at least depending on which weapon types that are switched.

Edited September 4, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Elerond]

Why not just make it so that movement slows recovery for bow and crossbow users and pauses/resets it or whatever it is now for arbalest/gun users?

 

Movement doesn't need to stop recovery for melee at all.

 

If we don't want see spear/pike/etc. longer ranged melee weapon kiting, become too dominant tactic then I think that movement should probably increase melee recovery little bit (10-30%).

[Sensuki]

Dunno about that. The hit frame is like frame 12 or something and after the hit frame the animation is not cancellable, so the melee opponent would most likely be able to get his attack off anyway.

 

I would test it right now for you, but I can't really because we can no longer attack our own party members

 

edit: oh not to mention melee engagement kinda solves that issue anyway

Edited September 4, 2014 by Sensuki

[Sammael]

That could work but there are some potential logic issues: e.g. fire bow, switch to melee weapon set, move until Recovery expires, switch to ranged set, fire.

 

I am not totally familiar with the recovery system, but if movement stops/slows recovery, shouldn't switching weapons also have some effect? I.e. switching weapons in the middle of a fight should maybe require some recovery before the new weapon can be used.

[Sensuki]

It already does, but the change weapon animation is instant. Would be better if it wasn't an instant animation and had a coinciding recovery as it's technically an action, but breaks the action & recovery rules.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Sensuki

[Valorian]

In a game like PoE, kiting is an exploit.

Being able to bait an enemy to chase one of your party members in circles while you shoot it down with the rest of your party is silly gameplay. 

[Sensuki]

That's an AI issue. Some targeting weights and stuff will fix it.

[Elerond]

Dunno about that. The hit frame is like frame 12 or something and after the hit frame the animation is not cancellable, so the melee opponent would most likely be able to get his attack off anyway.

 

I would test it right now for you, but I can't really because we can no longer attack our own party members

 

edit: oh not to mention melee engagement kinda solves that issue anyway

 

You may be right that melee engagement would block such issue, even though you can hit enemies outside of their engagement zone, but enemies probably can move close enough to engage before attack animation is over.

[Sammael]

Implementing weapon sheathe/draw animations may be a bit too much, but it would be weird if you clicked to switch the weapon set and then nothing happened for 2 seconds (or whatever). 

 

Thinking some more about it... the action economy has not played a part in IE games because they were structured around the underpinning turn system. While it's absolutely necessary in TB games, I am not sure if character action economy is actually all that necessary in RT games, because we are already limited by the player's ability to control a whole party of characters at the same time. Even with the pause, once you unpause the game you can hardly manage 6 characters at the same time, and at least a few of them will default to standard attacks and such. 

 

So, while I absolutely adored the JA2 point system, what works great in a TB game doesn't necessarily work great in a RT game. Increasing the recovery for ranged weapons to the point where ranged characters can only fire one round before being forced into melee doesn't sound all that great (particularly due to the AoO system - not sure if this was tweaked in the patch or not, but it was too brutal for my taste in the original release). Reducing recovery options sounds even less great. 

[Valorian]

That's an AI issue. Some targeting weights and stuff will fix it.

 

No. AI can't do anything about it. Read the example.

[PrimeJunta]

That tactic works IRL too though. I've been at the receiving end of it as a kid. Wasn't nice.

[Sensuki]

No. AI can't do anything about it. Read the example.

Yes it can. Currently enemies in PE go for the unit that attacked them and that's it. So you can run a party member around and have the others attack it to death without any penalty.

 

Some enemies are teleporting to your party members in the latest patch. Enemies in the IE games weren't so simple and they would change targets after a certain condition was met. 

 

Which enemy are you talking about specifically? The Ogre fight ?

Edited September 4, 2014 by Sensuki

[wanderon]

That tactic works IRL too though. I've been at the receiving end of it as a kid. Wasn't nice.

 

It's not silly gameplay to the dead enemy either...

[PrimeJunta]

Eh, I'm not losing any sleep over murdering a model, rig, and a few lines of script.

[Valorian]

That tactic works IRL too though. I've been at the receiving end of it as a kid. Wasn't nice.

 

Good for RL!

It's also good that RL combat isn't transplanted into PoE combat. That would be rather boring.

 

Yes it can. 

 

 

 

I believe you don't understand. If a melee enemy is not faster and you have some basic press-pause-button skills, you can use the party member that is currently targeted/followed as your run-away bait. You don't have to attack with the character who's being chased.

[archangel979]

That could work but there are some potential logic issues: e.g. fire bow, switch to melee weapon set, move until Recovery expires, switch to ranged set, fire.

That sounds like lots of unfun work. Maybe people that want to do that to themselves in a single player game should be allowed to it?

For the 99% of players that will not be doing this the change will improve the game.

 

We will kite IE way by making the target just run around without ever attacking while the rest of party attacks the enemy chasing.

Edited September 4, 2014 by archangel979

[Sensuki]

I believe you don't understand. If a melee enemy is not faster and you have some basic press-pause-button skills, you can use the party member that is currently targeted/followed as your run-away bait. You don't have to attack with the character who's being chased.

So what?

 

That's something you can do in literally every RTS ever

Edited September 4, 2014 by Sensuki

[PrimeJunta]

'K, got TPW'ed. Decided to fight the cult boss instead of going with my natural good Communist instincts and siding with the oppressed. He opened up with something that took nearly half the stamina down from my whole party. My opening was with a brand-new level 4 cipher ability that was supposed to be an AoE stun, but that didn't really appear to have all that much effect. Then one of those Symbol things doing DoT. That one means business.

 

Made the mistake of using BB Priest to heal stamina rather than suppress hostile effects. BB Fighter went down first, followed quickly by PC and BB Rogue, then BB Priest. BB Wizard had time to cast Wall of Fire which nuked all but one of the opposition, who then proceeded to hit him repeatedly until dead. Arcane veil put off the inevitable for a few moments, but that's about all she wrote.

 

Oh well, back to the ol' drawing board. Think I'll try a druid next; haven't played with those.

[Valorian]

 

I believe you don't understand. If a melee enemy is not faster and you have some basic press-pause-button skills, you can use the party member that is currently targeted/followed as your run-away bait. You don't have to attack with the character who's being chased.

So what?

 

That's something you can do in literally every RTS ever

 

 

You're probably thinking of games where your finger-flexes (reflexes) are an important part of gameplay. PoE is not such a game and you can only compete against an AI.

 

If so, they can as well add an ability that does one million damage in a large aoe (enemy only, 1/ecnounter) that appears each time you face a melee foe that moves at the same speed (or is slower) than you. Saves time.

[Sensuki]

No, that is one of the benefits of movement speed bonuses in combat.

 

In RTS games, I'm going to use Warcraft 3 as an example, you get boots of speed on your hero so you can - chase people down, and preferably have a better chance of running away from battle. Whether you're playing against a Human or AI opponent.

 

The Infinity Engine games have RTS style gameplay. The movement pausing recovery comes from a turn-based mindset (as Josh admitted before) combined with fear of degenerative ranged kiting.

 

You can already do exactly what you described in the current game, like you do with the Ogre - in the preview videos Adam Brennecke and Rose Gomez both kited the Ogre around in the cave.

 

So I really don't see the issue.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Sensuki

[PrimeJunta]

What's your solution to that tactic, Valorian?

[Elerond]

Setting movement speed for all enemies to be faster than player's characters would block all easy kiting tactics. But I am not sure if such would be best option

[mutonizer]

Well, as a first impression even though a bit delayed compared to you guys..

 

Holy frak! I can go through beetles, I can go through spiders, I can go through whatever...but Deep Wound (I think, that was the only damage reported in the log) on some random crossbow dude in the under tower lair just wiped out my entire team almost alone (the 4 other guys were ok, good fight, nothing to write home about).

 

And yea, as I suspected, rogue with 2hd (one crush/one slash depending on DT type) and padded armor rocked everything else I had with me at the time damage wise. Them non-stop boosted 2hd crits man, they hurt.

 

 

Setting movement speed for all enemies to be faster than player's characters would block all easy kiting tactics. But I am not sure if such would be best option

Artificial solution is...artificial.

Edited September 4, 2014 by mutonizer

[Elerond]

 

Setting movement speed for all enemies to be faster than player's characters would block all easy kiting tactics. But I am not sure if such would be best option

Artificial solution is...artificial.

 

In games you don't have any other sort of solutions because games work using artificial rule system.

[mutonizer]

 

In games you don't have any other sort of solutions because games work using artificial rule system.

 

 

What? No!

I meant artificial as in "hollow", not as in "made by man".

 

Damn them words and context mattering so much, am I right?