A different view on the whole XP controversy

[archangel979]

Hello everyone. I have been following XP topics from day one of backer beta. Although I don't have access to beta, I have been watching streams of people who have and have not complained about XP while streaming so lets say I managed to catch live emotions of both groups. 

 

But I don't want to do polls or complain about XP being this way or that way. I want to give my view on the (possible) real problem of current XP system. I also want to be a voice for people like me, people that don't have a strong opinion either way and just want to get the best possible experience no matter what XP system we ends up with.

No, I don't want to add this post in the overall topic as it will just get buried under all the poop slinging going on over there. Also by now, devs probably don't read that topic anymore. 

 

We have two groups going at each other throats. Both have fair reasons for that (at least they think so). 

 

Let me do a quick analysis of their positions before presenting my solution:

#1 In the left corner, wearing red shorts we have the anti kill-XP competitors.

They don't want to kill NPCs after they finish their quests and they want to have equal option to skip enemies as to kill them. They consider combat fun in itself and loot as enough of a reward.

 

#2 In the right corner, wearing blue shorts we have the kill-XP competitors.

They want to be able to skip quests if they want to and get their levels through clearing of areas of anything moving. Quest XP is just a bonus on top of the main dish - murder, slaughter, BLOOD!!! The less violent ones want to go wherever they please and do adventuring in a way they prefer. They consider killing without that XP number in combat log to be "not fun enough". 

 

(Please don't argue about this, it wasn't my purpose to represent both camps 100%)

 

What to do about this?

It seems to me that freedom of exploration is the key here. People screaming for XP actually want to go wherever and whenever and still FEEL like they have not missed anything. In IE games that was accomplished by giving each enemy XP value like in D&D and be done with it. Maps were then filled with special and often custom groups of enemies that would give us interesting combat but no quest was attached to them. The illusion worked.

 

Removing kill XP removes that option but it seems a replacement was not created. 

Since every group like that cannot have a quest attached to it, something else needs to be implemented. 

Be it encounter XP, discovery XP or something else, I leave this to the devs to consider as they best know their system. 

But adding something else in addition to quest xp would please both groups or at least calm them enough. 

 

It is important that these additional systems directly rewards people that like to just go out and discover and explore BEFORE talking to every person in the town looking for quests. At it needs to reward them NOW, not one+ hour later when they finally stroll into town and find out they did some quests by stumbling into them. 

 

Please don't turn this topic into another war zone...

 

EDIT: I have found myself more than once continuing to play IE games longer than intended to get a bit more XP to level some of my characters before I end it for the daynight. With XP coming immediately after my actions I would be able to do it and it would give pleasure to me. It is simple human psychology and it works. Just like how in aRPG you just keep playing because that better loot will drop "in next 5 minutes". In Civilization and other 4x games "just one more turn effect" is well documented one based on short term rewards and many of them. 

In IE games, it was gaining XP immediately for everything but quests. Now that everything is removed and nothing has replaced it. I will not prolong my playtime to level when I know it will take me 30 or more minutes instead of 5 or 10 (and after those 5 or 10 I might prolong it more because another short term reward might be 5 or 10 minutes away). 

Edited September 2, 2014 by archangel979

[IndiraLightfoot]

Archangel979: That was pretty much spot on!

 

Perhaps I would have added that the red-short guys often are happy about finally getting this thing changed, since they have viewed the old system as slightly bizarre because of all those killing sprees, and reversely, the blue-short guys feel that an important part of a CRPG, especially in an IE-inspired one, got sacrificed on the altar of some altar of "haughty RPG-ing".

 

Other than that, yeah. It's like there is something entirely missing. If an intricate objective/encounter xp system had been in place, soaking up all that exploration, free-roaming and alleged murder bonanzas, I wouldn't have felt so compassionately about this. For many people, in both camps, this was quite a shocker. A tiny cherub on my right shoulder is still whispering to me: "It wasn't in yet. In a patch or two, it all will be in place." And even if that little chubby angel isn't correct, I reckon that's the least OE could do, aim for a fine-meshed objective xp system that reward players as they move around in the game in their preferred order.

Edited September 2, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Endrosz]

Guild Wars 2, with its beautifully crafted world rewards exploration itself.

- You get XP for reaching point of interest (PoI), which are kind of like the annotations on a map. "Here be dragons", "Crystal mine", "Shanty Town" etc.

- You get XP for viewing every vista, which are fixed camera rides starting from the point where your character stands, showcasing some majestic sight in the world.

 

There are also challenges (usually involving non-trash mobs) and hearts (tasks to solve to help the locals) on maps. When you visit every point of interest, view every vista, finish every challenge and heart, then the map is considered "finished", and you get a big XP boost and two rare, good quality items, plus a bag of crafting materials.

 

These incentives work really well in motivating players to take paths less traveled. On every map, there a few hard-to-reach or hidden points of interest and/or vistas, which most players who are not obsessive-compulsive explorers like me would probably miss, but the end reward makes it so that players spend time finding them.

 

I'm not saying that adapting the entire system is a good fit for Eternity, but I do think that adding a points of interest reward system, where many such point are beyond combat 'gates', just like in GW2,  would go a long way of properly rewarding exploration and non-quest combat.

 

When I was engaging in XP arguments, I was thinking of objective XP, not just quest XP. Which includes rewarding quest phases, not just entire quests, and also exploring certain parts of the world.

 

[Mayama]

Oh good someone made a new kill-xp thread, the current one is almost at the post limit. Nice to have farseeing forum members that make a new one or else people might panic when they realize that their is no thread left in which they can post.

[archangel979]

I call this the compromise XP thread

[Silverbarr]

Good representation of what is occurring, I don't see an issue with this thread at all. In fact Mayama, you're post is probably the most useless in here so far.

[Mayama]

Good representation of what is occurring, I don't see an issue with this thread at all. In fact Mayama, you're post is probably the most useless in here so far.

Everything the OP wrote was writen a bazillion times in all those kill-xp threads.

[Silverbarr]

 

Good representation of what is occurring, I don't see an issue with this thread at all. In fact Mayama, you're post is probably the most useless in here so far.

Everything the OP wrote was writen a bazillion times in all those kill-xp threads.

 

 

Probably true, but at least it is surmised fairly accurately for people to read instead of a mess of argumentative comments from the same group of folk

[archangel979]

And where is this different view that was claimed in the title?

It's exactly the same thing that was beaten over and over again.

The part where the solution is not to implement kill XP but find an equally rewarding way for people that explore before bothering with quests?!

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Wow,it's like the romance stuff all over again.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Wow,it's like the romance stuff all over again.

 

Yeah, but that's mod approved. So that's okay for the mods and the promancers. So why not okay for xp threads?

[Mayama]

 

 

And where is this different view that was claimed in the title?

It's exactly the same thing that was beaten over and over again.

The part where the solution is not to implement kill XP but find an equally rewarding way for people that explore before bothering with quests?!

 

 

You really think that the majority of "pro-kill-xp" players is interested in something like that? Just read through those threads. You quickly find out that its not a discussion about logic and game mechanics its about personal preference, or with other words they just want it. Theirs no logical argument for it, just go on and read through it. All their so called negative side effects that will accour when you remove kill-xp cant be proven because their is zero way to prove it. Its a very "religious" debate.

 

Edit: I was actually neutral in the beginning and didnt really care how the game gives out XP but the fanticism and anger really pissed me off, especially because they act like they are some kind of spokesperson for a large silent majority. I asked some of my steam friends yesterday what they want from PoE and most of them dont really care as long as its fun to play. Its just a very vocal minority, that wants to get its way by force.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Mayama

[Sarex]

You really think that the majority of "pro-kill-xp" players is interested in something like that? Just read through those threads. You quickly find out that its not a discussion about logic and game mechanics its about personal preference, or with other words they just want it. Theirs no logical argument for it, just go on and read through it. All their so called negative side effects that will accour when you remove kill-xp cant be proven because their is zero way to prove it. Its a very "religious" debate.

 

 

That is exactly what combat xp proponents want, we even proposed a compromise numerous amount of times as a solution. But yeah it's hard to find those posts when they are drowning in the sh1t that are your posts. It's only the quest xp guys that are all or nothing on this issue.

[Mayama]

 

You really think that the majority of "pro-kill-xp" players is interested in something like that? Just read through those threads. You quickly find out that its not a discussion about logic and game mechanics its about personal preference, or with other words they just want it. Theirs no logical argument for it, just go on and read through it. All their so called negative side effects that will accour when you remove kill-xp cant be proven because their is zero way to prove it. Its a very "religious" debate.

 

 

That is exactly what combat xp proponents want, we even proposed a compromise numerous amount of times as a solution. But yeah it's hard to find those posts when they are drowning in the sh1t that are your posts. It's only the quest xp guys that are all or nothing on this issue.

 

...and hundrets of posts pointed out that implementing such a system while at the same time making it possible that every other way of solving problems is as rewarding is very hard.

[archangel979]

 

 

 

And where is this different view that was claimed in the title?

It's exactly the same thing that was beaten over and over again.

The part where the solution is not to implement kill XP but find an equally rewarding way for people that explore before bothering with quests?!

 

 

You really think that the majority of "pro-kill-xp" players is interested in something like that? Just read through those threads. You quickly find out that its not a discussion about logic and game mechanics its about personal preference, or with other words they just want it. Theirs no logical argument for it, just go on and read through it. All their so called negative side effects that will accour when you remove kill-xp cant be proven because their is zero way to prove it. Its a very "religious" debate.

 

Edit: I was actually neutral in the beginning and didnt really care how the game gives out XP but the fanticism and anger really pissed me off, especially because they act like they are some kind of spokesperson for a large silent majority. I asked some of my steam friends yesterday what they want from PoE and most of them dont really care as long as its fun to play. Its just a very vocal minority, that wants to get its way by force.

 

I did. And when you sort through all the trash and troll posts, I got away with the impression that what they really want is what I wrote here. Except for a few individuals, but they don't represent the whole pro kill-xp group (why I said in my OP that it will quiet down some, not stop it completely). 

 

What is Kill-xp? It is immediate reward for beating a foe. It is also a way to level without following a set structure (quests). 

 

Replace it with something better that works similarly and you got a winner. 

[Mayama]

What is Kill-xp? It is immediate reward for beating a foe. It is also a way to level without following a set structure (quests). 

 

 

Exactly its a game mechanic, you kill unit X to get Y. Thats it, nothing more. Their is no deep connection to any mythical rule of role playing games or whatever. Its a game mechanic and that means its up to the designers if it fits their vision on how they want the game to be played.

[archangel979]

 

 

And where is this different view that was claimed in the title?

It's exactly the same thing that was beaten over and over again.

The part where the solution is not to implement kill XP but find an equally rewarding way for people that explore before bothering with quests?!

 

It has been proposed several times.

 

And now it is proposed in its own separate thread because it is a separate topic. Now it is readable, findable and discussable without other trash posts dealing with people trolling each other. 

[archangel979]

 

What is Kill-xp? It is immediate reward for beating a foe. It is also a way to level without following a set structure (quests). 

 

 

Exactly its a game mechanic, you kill unit X to get Y. Thats it, nothing more. Their is no deep connection to any mythical rule of role playing games or whatever. Its a game mechanic and that means its up to the designers if it fits their vision on how they want the game to be played.

 

You act as if things exist in a vacuum. Kill XP has a reason, like any and all game mechanics. Removing Kill Xp also has a reason (told to us by Sawyer). Replacing kill XP also would have a reason. 

 

I tried to analyze those reasons and give a solution. 

[archangel979]

 

 

 

 

And where is this different view that was claimed in the title?

It's exactly the same thing that was beaten over and over again.

The part where the solution is not to implement kill XP but find an equally rewarding way for people that explore before bothering with quests?!

 

It has been proposed several times.

 

And now it is proposed in its own separate thread because it is a separate topic. Now it is readable, findable and discussable without other trash posts dealing with people trolling each other. 

 

You are backpedaling here. The title claimed different view, not separate topic for this particular view. 

 

Compared to kill xp vs quest xp, it is a different View. All the Xp topics deal mostly in those two. This is only XP topic whose starting premise is different. Because this topic deserves its own thread. Since nobody else did it, I had to. 

[Messier-31]

 

And now it is proposed in its own separate thread because it is a separate topic. Now it is readable, findable and discussable without other trash posts dealing with people trolling each other. 

 

You are backpedaling here. The title claimed different view, not separate topic for this particular view. 

 

Sharpy's got a point, yo.

[Immortalis]

Oh good someone made a new kill-xp thread, the current one is almost at the post limit. Nice to have farseeing forum members that make a new one or else people might panic when they realize that their is no thread left in which they can post.

 

Oh look.. someone so butt hurt that they are jumping the gun before reading thread title / content. Thanks for setting this thread off to a great start.

[Wintersong]

The OP (and following bickering) belongs to one of the already existing threads. Or is this some kind of reimagining thread maybe? Like V or Battlestar Galactica?

That's my opinion and I don't care if it's shared because I represent the majority (83%). True story.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Immortalis]

The OP (and following bickering) belongs to one of the already existing threads. Or is this some kind of reimagining thread maybe? Like V or Battlestar Galactica?

 

That's my opinion and I don't care if it's shared because I represent the majority (83%). True story.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know if this thread should exist or not.. maybe it should be locked.. I just love that the superior-then-thou who critique Helm for being a jerk are always the first to **** post under the guise of extreme sarcasm.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Immortalis

[DigitalCrack]

So... alternate suggestions to kill xp anyone?  Even if these ideas have been in another thread (as an off topic suggestion) this is dedicated to finding alternate solutions not continuing an argument that no one will win.  Currently the status is that there won't be any kill xp and probably never will be.  Knowing this the suggestion for discovery xp would be cool especially if tie in a lot of random world history to the discoveries (as an optional read like books but more interesting).  Or possibly set up a jobs kind of system that earns you xp, for example: tie them in with backgrounds at character creation, choosing a scholar would give you xp for discovering creatures like a zoologist keeping a log of rare beasts encountered.  An explorer would get xp for finding ruins and such.  It would be hard to balance but would add an interesting layer to obtaining xp outside of quests without having to interact with NPC's. 

Edited September 2, 2014 by DigitalCrack

[IndiraLightfoot]

Drastic solution: Remove all quest xp. Furnish all the areas with an invisible mesh of triggers. Whenever you pass into a new one, you get a bit of xp. This would be the end, once for all, for rewarding accomplishments and performed tasks. Instead we get a system that rewards capping the individual pieces of the game mosaic. The transition to theme park ride would be complete.