Backer beta: Developer Impressions

[Ink Blot]

You dont need to kill the ogre

You can give the bandits gold for the egg

You can let the thief flee and lie to the guys waiting at the bridge

You can use the cultist hood and cloak and pretend to be a member

 

I didnt do the last two things myself only read about it.

You only need to kill 3 trash monster groups if you really dont want to use stealth.

 

You inspired me to build a pacifist and try it out. What I did was build an Orlan Rogue and I pumped up Perception, Intellect, and Resolve to 15 each (I grabbed the background that gives you +1 Resolve to get it to 15). For skills I took Stealth (to make it easier to sneak by mobs) and Mechanics (so I could unlock doors to bypass combat). I was able to solve the Nyfre quest without violence (this required a 14 Resolve check). I was also able to deal peacefully with the Ogre.

 

BUT, I don't think it's possible to sneak into the Ogre cave without fighting the two spiders just outside the cave mouth. One is situated dead center in the choke point of the path leading up to the cave. While it does wander a bit, it's not enough to be able to get past without being spotted. Second spider is a similar situation. Inside the cave, it's possible to sneak by the spiders to get outside to grab the robes, note and key off the corpse (this will allow you to disguise yourself later on in the temple). I sneaked my main over to talk to the Ogre, leaving the rest of the party at the ramp leading out to the corpse. However, there are a couple spiders that wander and I was unable to get the party by them and out of the cave without being spotted. Tried numerous times without success. Anyway, I won't count that, as it may be possible to bypass them.

 

One thing I will note is that yes, it's probably possible to resolve all (or most) quests without resorting to combat. But this is highly unlikely, as you'd need to build your character with high values in specific abilities, as well as likely need a lot of metagame knowledge to be able to bypass many encounters. (If I didn't know where to go in the area where you find the cave, I'd have run afoul of a ton of beetles and/or wolves. So, yeah, my impression is you can probably resolve quests without combat, but it's extremely unlikely.

[Tartantyco]

I'd also like to know who taught him ESP.

 

Because this:

The PoE system does not work on direct individual XP rewards, and it will not be altered to do so

...is something none of us knows yet. Not even the developers know. Josh Sawyer came to these boards just yesterday to remind us in several various ways, that PoE is still a work in progress and stuff like setting Numerical values to things (like XP rewards for successful use of the Athletics skill) is so very much something that is not yet set in stone.

 

 

But the XP system is not a simple matter of a few numerical values. Direct individual XP rewards where lockpicking only improves your lockpicking skills, require a completely different framework than the pool-based XP system.

 

Do note that Helm and I am not discussing simply adding XP values to kills.

[Stun]

But the XP system is not a simple matter of a few numerical values.

I know. I was responding to your post... which was claiming that individual XP value rewards will never happen. (like picking a lock and getting XP for it.) Edited August 26, 2014 by Stun

[Endrosz]

An extra row of inventory space per character would really help here.

 

Nah, an additional "stash all" button is what's missing to actually make the stash perform its intended function, the reduction of time spent on rote item nudging. You hand-pick what you need for the current adventure, then press "stash all" and move on.

[Tartantyco]

Ahhh, so you admit that it ok to improve lockpick skill with combat XP or quest XP because both concepts are equally abstract? Good.

 

Anyway, not rewarding combat with XP also promotes one playstyle over another, which is to avoid combat. I didn't back a stealth simulator, I backed a spiritual successor the IE games. So, how does one become a more potent combatant if they never engage in combat? How do I become a masterful warrior by skipping all of the combat in the game and always choosing the peaceful solution to quests?

 

There are two differences here: First of all, it's not a system that positively promotes a playstyle. Secondly, you are now avoiding combat because it makes sense in the game world.

 

 

 

Ahhh, so you admit that it ok to improve lockpick skill with combat XP or quest XP because both concepts are equally abstract? Good.

 

 

There is nothing to admit, as I have never stated otherwise. I am simply maintaining my position.

[Panteleimon]

I'd also like to know who taught him ESP.

 

Because this:

The PoE system does not work on direct individual XP rewards, and it will not be altered to do so

...is something none of us knows yet. Not even the developers know. Josh Sawyer came to these boards just yesterday to remind us in several various ways, that PoE is still a work in progress and stuff like setting Numerical values to things (like XP rewards for successful use of the Athletics skill) is so very much something that is not yet set in stone.

 

 

 

I believe one of the developers communicated subtly to Indiralightfoot that as far as any change from quest XP is concerned, "anything you want to mod in you definitely should", AKA it's not happening.

 

Regardless, the game is feature complete(beta) and they simply are not going to change entire systems at this point(we aren't simply talking tweaking numbers like with attributes), regardless of how badly you'd like them to. If you'd like to continue to wring your hands and rage over the issue in vain, then you can certainly do so.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Panteleimon

[Stun]

 

An extra row of inventory space per character would really help here.

 

Nah, an additional "stash all" button is what's missing to actually make the stash perform its intended function, the reduction of time spent on rote item nudging. You hand-pick what you need for the current adventure, then press "stash all" and move on.

 

Yeah, that would work too.

[Tartantyco]

 

But the XP system is not a simple matter of a few numerical values.

I know. I was responding to your post... which was claiming that individual XP value rewards will never happen. (like picking a lock and getting XP for it.)

 

 

That is not what I said in my post. Why is it so hard for you not to misrepresent the comments of others? What I specifically said, and as you may confirm by actually reading my discussion with Helm, is this: Obsidian implementing a system where you directly improve your lockpicking skills solely through the act of lockpicking will not happen.

[Helm]

 

Ahhh, so you admit that it ok to improve lockpick skill with combat XP or quest XP because both concepts are equally abstract? Good.

 

Anyway, not rewarding combat with XP also promotes one playstyle over another, which is to avoid combat. I didn't back a stealth simulator, I backed a spiritual successor the IE games. So, how does one become a more potent combatant if they never engage in combat? How do I become a masterful warrior by skipping all of the combat in the game and always choosing the peaceful solution to quests?

 

There are two differences here: First of all, it's not a system that positively promotes a playstyle. Secondly, you are now avoiding combat because it makes sense in the game world.

 

  

So, the game doesn't promote a specific playstyle, yet it encourages the player to avoid combat because it makes sense in this world? What?

 

Anyway, thank you for admitting that game encourages the player to avoid combat.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Helm

[Helm]

 

 

But the XP system is not a simple matter of a few numerical values.

I know. I was responding to your post... which was claiming that individual XP value rewards will never happen. (like picking a lock and getting XP for it.)

 

 

That is not what I said in my post. Why is it so hard for you not to misrepresent the comments of others? What I specifically said, and as you may confirm by actually reading my discussion with Helm, is this: Obsidian implementing a system where you directly improve your lockpicking skills solely through the act of lockpicking will not happen.

 

Sawyer created an XP system where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker. That's what happened.

[Stun]

That is not what I said in my post. Why is it so hard for you not to misrepresent the comments of others?

You mean your comments?

 

Don't know. Might have something to do with the lack of clarity in them. Most of the time they're nothing but one liners. And there's only so much anyone can glean from one-liners.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Stun

[Tartantyco]

So, the game doesn't promote a specific playstyle, yet it encourages the player to avoid combat because it makes sense in this world?

 

 

It doesn't positively promote it. Certain behaviors will necessarily be promoted through the mechanical function of the game. That is entirely different from the developers putting something into the game specifically to promote it. To make it perfectly clear, the game does passively promote certain playstyles.

 

The way it promotes them is through them being the rational choices to make in the game world. If you see a dragon and you think "I'll get a ton of XP for killing it", that is not a rational game world decision. Why are you endangering your life and those of your party members in this situation? If you see a dragon and you think "Dragons guard vast treasure, I'll kill it for money", that is a rational game world decision. You and your party are risking your lives for a tangible game world reward.

[Helm]

 

So, the game doesn't promote a specific playstyle, yet it encourages the player to avoid combat because it makes sense in this world?

 

It doesn't positively promote it. Certain behaviors will necessarily be promoted through the mechanical function of the game. That is entirely different from the developers putting something into the game specifically to promote it. To make it perfectly clear, the game does passively promote certain playstyles.

 

 

 

Yeah, the game actively encourages the player to finish quests and passivly encourages the player to avoid combat. We already know that.

 

But thanks for once again admitting that the game encourages the player to avoid combat.

 

 

The way it promotes them is through them being the rational choices to make in the game world. If you see a dragon and you think "I'll get a ton of XP for killing it", that is not a rational game world decision. Why are you endangering your life and those of your party members in this situation? If you see a dragon and you think "Dragons guard vast treasure, I'll kill it for money", that is a rational game world decision. You and your party are risking your lives for a tangible game world reward.

Okay. I guess that means that questing for XP is also an irrational game world decision. 

 

Lets "fix" up the game some more and remove quest XP too.

[Gromnir]

 

you ain't punished.  you get same xp as those who sneak past combats even if you do get 1007 drops n' such that sneaky folks don't get.

He didn't claim he was being discriminated against. He claimed he was being punished. How else would you describe getting into a nasty fight, having to use up valuable consumables and limited per day abilities and then receive nothing for your hard work...except maybe the need to use up one of your camping supplies, or hike back to the inn for rest?

 

you ain't punished.  you get same xp as those who sneak past combats even if you do get 1007 drops n' such that sneaky folks don't get. the guy that does the fight gets valuable loot drops that the sneaky or diplomatic player does not receive.  the sneaky doesn't waste potions or camping resources. is a Role-Play game. aren’t you happy you get meaningful choices? regardless, notice we said "punished" not discriminated.... although that is one o' the more feeble semantic arguments we has seen in awhile. am suspecting that loot drops more than make up for camping supplies, but even if they don't, is up to player to decide where is the value. even so, there is no punishment or discrimination for choosing fighty. there is likewise no Punishment for diplomatic or sneaky players when discussing xp rewards, 'cause they is gonna get exact same xp regardless. 

 

 

there is no more simple and elegant method than quest and task xp that will provide all styles o' gameplay with same xp awards.  until some codexian grognard or new initiate to the xp morass comes up with such a simple and straightforward system, the argument is functional dead and over. and as there is no conceivable way to better balance than to not try and balance, there is no actual argument. honest. am assuming the reason you never see the obsidian folks join in is 'cause o' the complete and utter boredom they feels everytime some wannabee necromancer  attempts to resurrect this mutilated corpse o' an argument

 

 

 

even little kiddies who has seen aladdin know that it ain't a pretty picture when you try and raise the dead like you folks is trying. (homage to robin williams added in not-so-sly-fashion)

 

the first person who adds something new to this discussion is gonna send us to the hospital with a heart attack.  no matter how clever and/or insightful y'all think you is, this is a +10 year argument and you add absolutely nothing to what has already been beat into what is now nothing more than immature yes v. no nonsense and hair pulling repetition.

 

say something new, anybody. go ahead, we dare you.

 

...

 

honest think for a moment and ask self if there is possible anything you can say that weren't added in 2002 or any bis/obsidian development since that time.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 26, 2014 by Gromnir

[Tartantyco]

Okay. I guess that means that questing for XP is also an irrational game world decision.

 

 

No, that makes sense in the game world because it's a quest you receive in the game world.

 

In the end, the developers have to put in XP somewhere if they want to have an XP-based leveling system in the game. Quest-XP is the place where it has the least unintended consequences, because quests are pretty much the base concept of a roleplaying game.

[Helm]

 

Okay. I guess that means that questing for XP is also an irrational game world decision.

 

 

No, that makes sense in the game world because it's a quest you receive in the game world.

 

In the end, the developers have to put in XP somewhere if they want to have an XP-based leveling system in the game. Quest-XP is the place where it has the least unintended consequences, because quests are pretty much the base concept of a roleplaying game.

 

Ok, cool. So can we have a quest to murder everything and reward it with a bunch of XP? It's a quest, so it must be ok.

[Azrael Ultima]

 

 

Okay. I guess that means that questing for XP is also an irrational game world decision.

 

 

No, that makes sense in the game world because it's a quest you receive in the game world.

 

In the end, the developers have to put in XP somewhere if they want to have an XP-based leveling system in the game. Quest-XP is the place where it has the least unintended consequences, because quests are pretty much the base concept of a roleplaying game.

 

Ok, cool. So can we have a quest to murder everything and reward it with a bunch of XP? It's a quest, so it must be ok.

 

Even better, have the quest reward you after every partial step.

[Tartantyco]

 

 

Okay. I guess that means that questing for XP is also an irrational game world decision.

 

 

No, that makes sense in the game world because it's a quest you receive in the game world.

 

In the end, the developers have to put in XP somewhere if they want to have an XP-based leveling system in the game. Quest-XP is the place where it has the least unintended consequences, because quests are pretty much the base concept of a roleplaying game.

 

Ok, cool. So can we have a quest to murder everything and reward it with a bunch of XP? It's a quest, so it must be ok.

 

Do you think that would be a good quest?

[Helm]

Do you think that would be a good quest?

Sure, why not, since the core activity of the game is combat. Edited August 26, 2014 by Helm

[Tartantyco]

Don't be disingenuous, Helm. You don't want this to be Diablo.

[Stun]

<stuff>

 

there is no more simple and elegant method than quest and task xp that will provide all styles o' gameplay with same xp awards.

Congratulations, you've just made a terrific argument for the inclusion of Quest/objective XP. Now all we have to do is find someone on this forum who was ever against getting XP for quests and objectives, and you'd be all set to declare verbal victory.

 

I do however take issue with your notion that Loot should replace kill XP as the reward for choosing the violent option in a game that gives you choices. I can't see that system promoting anything but unrestrained save scummming and total meta gaming. (should I talk this enemy party down or should I kill them for their loot? Oh I know! I'll kill them, then check and see if their loot is any good. if it is, I'll take the loot. if not, I'll reload, talk them down, and take the XP!)

 

I'd also like you to tell me why a system that rewards quests, tasks, AND kills with loot and XP will somehow manage to be less effective or less elegant in promoting diverse playstyles and CHOICE, than a system that decides to un-evenly reward all playstyles.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Stun

[Gromnir]

don't be obtuse. if you want xp for individual kills or individual lockpicks you is not actual advocating the quest/task xp reward approach.

 

*sigh*

 

and the reasons why xp for kills and individual activities PLUS quest awards has been beaten to death... beaten beyond death, is that if the fighty character gets more xp 'cause xp from fights ends up yielding more xp, then you is functional encouraging fighty even if you do make diplomatic and sneaky options viable. quest and task xp awards avoids any sorta attempts to balance awards for differing play styles... yadda-yadda, etc. ad nauseum.

 

*groan*'

 

you don't have any idea just how obtuse this all is and how repetitive.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps say something new. give us a new perspective. come up with a new argument. anything. please.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Gromnir

[Helm]

Don't be disingenuous, Helm. You don't want this to be Diablo.

You're right, I don't want to kill everything. But I don't want combat to be a pointless chore either.

[Tartantyco]

 

Don't be disingenuous, Helm. You don't want this to be Diablo.

You're right, I don't want to kill everything. But I don't want combat to be a pointless chore either.

 

And happily it won't.

[Stun]

don't be obtuse. if you want xp for individual kills or individual lockpicks you is not actual advocating the quest/task xp reward approach.

 

*sigh*

 

and the reasons why xp for kills and individual activities PLUS quest awards has been beaten to death... beaten beyond death, is that if the fighty character gets more xp 'cause xp from fights ends up yielding more xp, then you is functional encouraging fighty even if you do make diplomatic and sneaky options viable. quest and task xp awards avoids any sorta attempts to balance awards for differing play styles... yadda-yadda, etc. ad nauseum.

 

*groan*'

 

you don't have any idea just how obtuse this all is and how repetitive.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

Bullsh*t, You're stating an opinion as fact. I want XP for completing quests equally as much as I want XP for killing things. Take either of them away from me, And I will respond to the omission the SAME. Incidently, there would be nothing stopping the devs from increasing quest completion rewards for those who completed those quests non-violently, thus equaling out the discrepancy you claim will occur for players who take the violent route.

 

And by the way, it's not up Gromnir to decide whether or not a thread discussion is "too old" to be discussed. I don't see a moderator tag next to your name, so stop pretending you're one.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Stun