Backer beta: Developer Impressions

[Clean&Clear]

 

I thought the following feedback on the Backer Beta was very insightful, particularly from someone who has seen both the developer and fanbase sides of the game. 

 

http://new.spring.me/#!/user/GZiets/timeline/responses

 

 

Question:

 

George what do you think of the POE backer Beta? In particular the combat? Have you completely lost touch with the game?

 

 

 

GZiets

 

I played for a few hours this weekend - got through all the town content, as well as a wilderness map and a dungeon, before finally being defeated by a variety of bugs. Here are my thoughts so far:

 

In my opinion, combat is still too buggy to give it a fair assessment. There’s a sophisticated combat system lurking under the surface of this game, and some of it is pretty cool, but right now it’s not getting a chance to shine. In its current buggy state, fine control over my party seemed virtually impossible, and I resorted to directing them more like an RTS, paying little attention to the details. As I played, I couldn’t shake the feeling that the mechanics would be better served by turn-based (or at least slower-paced) gameplay. However, that might be my own prejudices showing through.

 

Some other reactions: 

Loved the richness of the world and the hints I got about the story. 

 

Liked the per encounter abilities. These encouraged me to spend them in combat, rather than hoarding them for the most desperate situations.

 

Liked the autopause options, though these still didn’t pause the action as much as I would have preferred. (Wish I had the equivalent of a per-round pause. Maybe that could be approximated by playing around with the Combat Time setting.)

 

Liked that I could mouse over lines in the combat logs to get details about how I had rolled, how the enemy’s defense stat had affected my roll, etc. This turned out to be a very effective way to quickly learn the basics of the combat system.

 

Liked the size and layout of the town. Felt like there was a nice balance of things to do and people to meet, and almost every building or POI had a purpose.

 

Liked the fact that dialogue showed me other options that would be visible if I had the appropriate skill (though when I raised my skills to the appropriate levels, those options seemed to be largely cosmetic, which was a little disappointing – hopefully there will be cases where they lead to alternate quest resolutions).

 

Didn’t like the very limited inventory space for my characters. 

 

Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat. While this does put more emphasis on solving quests, the lack of rewards for killing creatures makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game) as much as I can.

 

Minor point, but I was disappointed that I couldn’t become a cleric of Galawain, the beast god. (I played a nature godlike, so it seemed like a natural fit.)

 

A number of offensive spells seemed to be AOEs, which were virtually never useful since combat almost always devolved into a random melee within seconds.

 

(I haven’t completely lost touch with PoE, but I the last time I actively worked on it was during preproduction.)

 

 

I agree with the inventory critics, but I don't like the whole new concept of removing item weight and adding bottomless omnipresent stash, so i guess it belongs to a different thread.

 

I don't agree with the xp critics. It seems weird at first to not be awarded xp for fighting, but so far I haven't heard or read any ideas how to make a better system that doesn't make stealth useless. Ofc, you can argue that stealh is kind of useless system itself in this kind of game, but I think it presents some new opportunities how to play and current system of xp rewards doesn't punish stealth-heavy playstyle so much as combat xp.

[Stun]

Oh no, it's an extra step! If your charaters' inventory in the Beta is full then you don't understand the meaning of 'tactical'.

Nope. There's nothing tactical about giving the players 8 inventory slots and then a bottomless, weightless stash. There's just a constant, pointless extra step that doesn't need to be there.

 

Convolution for convolution's sake isn't good design.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Stun

[Stun]

Quake II is...

...not an RPG, nor a spiritual successor to the Infinity engine games.

 

But you sure are the master of irrelevant example citing.

[Tartantyco]

 

Oh no, it's an extra step! If your charaters' inventory in the Beta is full then you don't understand the meaning of 'tactical'.

Nope. There's nothing tactical about giving the players 8 inventory slots and then a bottomless, weightless stash. There's just a pointless extra step that doesn't need to be there.

 

Convolution for convolution's sake isn't good design.

 

 

You are aware that your access to the stash is restricted, and that it's not just another place to store stuff? Only stuff that you have in your inventory can actually be used then and there, meaning you have to decide what you want to have available to your characters in combat.

 

 

Quake II is...

...not an RPG, nor a spiritual successor to the Infinity engine games.

 

But you sure are the master of irrelevant example citing.

 

We are not discussing genres, we are discussing how players respond to incentives. If you are unable to understand the validity of the example, that is your issue.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

I don't agree with the xp critics. It seems weird at first to not be awarded xp for fighting, but so far I haven't heard or read any ideas how to make a better system that doesn't make stealth useless. Ofc, you can argue that stealh is kind of useless system itself in this kind of game, but I think it presents some new opportunities how to play and current system of xp rewards doesn't punish stealth-heavy playstyle so much as combat xp.

 

Even when I was defending the objective xp (before the beta), I reckon this scrap-combat-xp-since-stealth-options-are-in argument didn't hold water. Just think about it - many encounters in the beta, and truckloads of them in the full game, will require that you do fight. Since no xp is given for other non-combat actions: traps, locks, puzzles, dialogue smooth-talking, etc, this stealth can't be the stumble block for decent design, methinks.

[leninghola]

 

With regards to combat xp... add in very rare "oddities" like in Underrail* that can drop from combat encounters.

 

Yep. If I remember correctly, in BG2, killed enemy mages (randomly?) drop some scrolls that you can't get anywhere else (or at least not as early), so even if there were zero combat XP in that game, powergamers would still make sure never to miss an opportunity to fight mages...

 

 

Well placed xp "items" and encounters enhance the exploration aspect, too. As was the case in the Gothic games with their books and lecterns hidden in hard to reach places.

[Blarghagh]

Thread pruned. Settle down. No more personal attacks on each other's intelligence.

[Mayama]

Even when I was defending the objective xp (before the beta), I reckon this scrap-combat-xp-since-stealth-options-are-in argument didn't hold water. Just think about it - many encounters in the beta, and truckloads of them in the full game, will require that you do fight. Since no xp is given for other non-combat actions: traps, locks, puzzles, dialogue smooth-talking, etc, this stealth can't be the stumble block for decent design, methinks.

 

 

 

I guess you mean encounters as in quests? Well you can solve all 4 quests in the beta without killing anyone.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Mayama

[Stun]

 

 

Quake II is...

...not an RPG, nor a spiritual successor to the Infinity engine games.

 

But you sure are the master of irrelevant example citing.

 

 

We are not discussing genres, we are discussing how players respond to incentives. If you are unable to understand the validity of the example, that is your issue.

 

Genres make a huge difference in just about every feature one can discuss about PoE. Can't waive that fact away, buddy. Mortal Kombat doesn't have quests, yet all the stuff you've talked about (incentives, rewards, combat motivations etc.) still work fine in it.

 

So does this mean that PoE doesn't need quests?

Edited August 26, 2014 by Stun

[Marceror]

 

Genres make a huge difference in just about every feature one can discuss about PoE. Can't discard that point, buddy. Mortal Kombat doesn't have quests, yet all the stuff you've talked about (incentives, rewards, combat motivations etc.) still work fine in it.

 

So does this mean that PoE doesn't need quests?

 

I think that what it means is PoE needs fully animated finishing moves!

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

Even when I was defending the objective xp (before the beta), I reckon this scrap-combat-xp-since-stealth-options-are-in argument didn't hold water. Just think about it - many encounters in the beta, and truckloads of them in the full game, will require that you do fight. Since no xp is given for other non-combat actions: traps, locks, puzzles, dialogue smooth-talking, etc, this stealth can't be the stumble block for decent design, methinks.

 

 

 

I guess you mean encounters as in quests? Well you can solve all 4 quests in the beta without killing anyone.

 

Heh! You got me there. I pressed stealth and it turned all party to stealth mode, and I gave up on it, and tried sneaking without game-mechanic: sneaking. And all I got was hostile reactions. You are probably right about that - but it would be bizarre sneaking through those maps, crammed with beetles and prides, though - they are there for the taking, my combat-xp fingers are twitching at the sight of them.

[Ink Blot]

I guess you mean encounters as in quests? Well you can solve all 4 quests in the beta without killing anyone.

 

I suppose if you do it in a very specific way? Or does it depend on certain stats? I haven't been able to solve all quests peacefully yet. Of course, I've only been able to solve any quest with one character so far, and I've not finished that run so we'll see how things play out.

[Tartantyco]

Genres make a huge difference in just about every feature one can discuss about PoE. Can't waive that fact away, buddy. Mortal Kombat doesn't have quests, yet all the stuff you've talked about (incentives, rewards, combat motivations etc.) still work fine in it.

 

 

Let me break this down for you.

 

Discussion: PoE will be combat focused. Is combat XP necessary?

 

Argument for: If there is no XP reward, people will avoid combat.

 

Example: Compare with game that is combat focused, but has other approaches(Such as speedrunning) and has no XP.

 

Question: How do people respond to not being rewarded for combat, and having lower risk options available to them?

 

Answer: People still engage in combat, despite there being lower risk approaches.

 

The reason why you don't use Mortal Kombat as an example is because it doesn't have relevance to the question. You can't talk your way out of a fight or just run past them to the next level.

 

So does this mean that PoE doesn't need quests?

 

 

Mortal Kombat does have a quest. Fight your way to the top and defeat the boss. Regardless, does PoE need quests? It's a perfectly valid question. Are you prepared to argue that it doesn't? 

[Mayama]

 

 

Even when I was defending the objective xp (before the beta), I reckon this scrap-combat-xp-since-stealth-options-are-in argument didn't hold water. Just think about it - many encounters in the beta, and truckloads of them in the full game, will require that you do fight. Since no xp is given for other non-combat actions: traps, locks, puzzles, dialogue smooth-talking, etc, this stealth can't be the stumble block for decent design, methinks.

 

 

 

I guess you mean encounters as in quests? Well you can solve all 4 quests in the beta without killing anyone.

 

Heh! You got me there. I pressed stealth and it turned all party to stealth mode, and I gave up on it, and tried sneaking without game-mechanic: sneaking. And all I got was hostile reactions. You are probably right about that - but it would be bizarre sneaking through those maps, crammed with beetles and prides, though - they are there for the taking, my combat-xp fingers are twitching at the sight of them.

 

You dont need to kill the ogre

You can give the bandits gold for the egg

You can let the thief flee and lie to the guys waiting at the bridge

You can use the cultist hood and cloak and pretend to be a member

 

I didnt do the last two things myself only read about it.

You only need to kill 3 trash monster groups if you really dont want to use stealth.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Mayama

[Stun]

Well you can solve all 4 quests in the beta without killing anyone.

Are you sure?

 

I was able to solve 3 of them without killing anyone involved in them. But the Dragon Egg quest forced me into combat with the party of adventurers that guard it. A successful dialogue skill check simply resulted 1 enemy defection. Everyone else had to be fought and killed.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Stun

[Ink Blot]

You can let the thief flee and lie to the guys waiting at the bridge

 

I've never been successful at getting them to believe me. Result is a fight.

[Mayama]

 

Are you sure?

 

I was able to solve 3 of them without killing anyone involved in them. But the Dragon Egg quest forced me into combat with the party of adventurers that guard it. A successful dialogue skill check simply resulted 1 enemy defection. Everyone else had to be fought and killed.

 

Bug? I gave them gold and it was over. Next question which version is actually buggy or does it depend on how good your skill role is.

[Marceror]

Regarding quest only xp, one thing that I'm not totally comfortable with is the fact that one of the key outcomes of xp/leveling up, is you become a more potent combatant. How does one become a more potent combatant if they never engage in combat?

[Stun]

 

Genres make a huge difference in just about every feature one can discuss about PoE. Can't waive that fact away, buddy. Mortal Kombat doesn't have quests, yet all the stuff you've talked about (incentives, rewards, combat motivations etc.) still work fine in it.

 

Let me break this down for you.

 

Discussion: PoE will be combat focused. Is combat XP necessary?

 

Argument for: If there is no XP reward, people will avoid combat.

 

Example: Compare with game that is combat focused, but has other approaches(Such as speedrunning) and has no XP.

 

Question: How do people respond to not being rewarded for combat, and having lower risk options available to them?

 

Answer: People still engage in combat, despite there being lower risk approaches.

 

The reason why you don't use Mortal Kombat as an example is because it doesn't have relevance to the question.

 

What do you mean it doesn't have relevance to the question? It can be applied to everything you mentioned above. 1) it's combat Oriented. 2) there are motivations/incentives to engage in combat that do not involve Questing or XP; and 3) people will engage in all of its gameplay because of 1 and 2 alone.

 

My question still remains. You dodged it.

 

 

Regardless, does PoE need quests? It's a perfectly valid question.

LOL Edited August 26, 2014 by Stun

[IndiraLightfoot]

Regarding quest only xp, one thing that I'm not totally comfortable with is the fact that one of the key outcomes of xp/leveling up, is you become a more potent combatant. How does one become a more potent combatant if they never engage in combat?

Brilliant post!

[Tartantyco]

Regarding quest only xp, one thing that I'm not totally comfortable with is the fact that one of the key outcomes of xp/leveling up, is you become a more potent combatant. How does one become a more potent combatant if they never engage in combat?

 

How does one become better at lockpicking by stabbing beetles? It doesn't make sense anyway, so the argument isn't really valid.

[Mayama]

 

Regarding quest only xp, one thing that I'm not totally comfortable with is the fact that one of the key outcomes of xp/leveling up, is you become a more potent combatant. How does one become a more potent combatant if they never engage in combat?

Brilliant post!

 

In the same way as they become better at lock picking by solving fed ex quests or gettng better at conversation while crafting a fancy item. XP is a abstract unrealistic way of tracking progress.

[PrimeJunta]

But a fun one.

[Tartantyco]

What do you mean it doesn't have relevance to the question? It can be applied to everything you mentioned above. 1) it's combat Oriented. 2) there are motivations/incentives to engage in combat that do not involve Questing or XP; and 3) people will engage in all of its gameplay because of 1 and 2 alone.

 

 

I'm sorry, but the answer to your question is in the post you quoted. There are no alternate paths other than combat. Please read my posts if you are to reply to them.

[Stun]

 

Regarding quest only xp, one thing that I'm not totally comfortable with is the fact that one of the key outcomes of xp/leveling up, is you become a more potent combatant. How does one become a more potent combatant if they never engage in combat?

 

How does one become better at lockpicking by stabbing beetles?

 

You mean how does one become better at mechanics by killing beetles? I can think of a few ways.