Health & Stamina, failed design?

[Monte Carlo]

If you find that your adventuring day is too short, that's not necessarily a problem with the system, but rather an indication that you should consider putting more of your characters on the front line, to spread the hits around, or focusing more on minimizing the amount of damage you're taking in fights. The tactical / strategic resource split is really about punishing you for barely scraping through fights. It's a feature, not a bug.

 

OK, let's run with this. I'm not sure I agree, but let's go with it. The problem atm is that combat is too roughly-implemented (mechanically and technically with bugs / implementation) to properly achieve what you describe. Armour, lack of feedback, dog-piling, enemy movement speed and general lack of responsiveness means that the level of micro required to do what you suggest just isn't fun.

 

I like micro-management and tactics. Give me a game where I have proper control and the ability to understand combat feedback and what you say makes complete sense. However, for many people, the game doesn't offer this. Combat is still slightly confusing, a mush. There are too many powers and I don't know when they kick in (or if they kicked in at all). Furthermore, all the enemies seem to have OD'd on energy drinks.

 

So while I think your point has merit, it isn't borne out by the technical realities behind PoE's implementation.

[Sensuki]

 

If you find that your adventuring day is too short, that's not necessarily a problem with the system, but rather an indication that you should consider putting more of your characters on the front line, to spread the hits around, or focusing more on minimizing the amount of damage you're taking in fights. The tactical / strategic resource split is really about punishing you for barely scraping through fights. It's a feature, not a bug.

 

OK, let's run with this. I'm not sure I agree, but let's go with it. The problem atm is that combat is too roughly-implemented (mechanically and technically with bugs / implementation) to properly achieve what you describe. Armour, lack of feedback, dog-piling, enemy movement speed and general lack of responsiveness means that the level of micro required to do what you suggest just isn't fun.

 

I like micro-management and tactics. Give me a game where I have proper control and the ability to understand combat feedback and what you say makes complete sense. However, for many people, the game doesn't offer this. Combat is still slightly confusing, a mush. There are too many powers and I don't know when they kick in (or if they kicked in at all). Furthermore, all the enemies seem to have OD'd on energy drinks.

 

So while I think your point has merit, it isn't borne out by the technical realities behind PoE's implementation.

 

 

You're right (I really enjoy RTS and MOBA play myself), it's a combination of things:

 

• Poor combat idle animations - will be doing a vid on this soon
• Spell FX being too flashy - I warned Obsidian about this twice, btw
• Lower camera angle outside
• Characters disappearing into the environment (the sorting is too extreme with the grass etc)
• Larger sized enemies and characters relative to the scale of the environment compared to the IE games
• Obtuse Combat HUDS (If you use them. I can see *exactly* why they made them because combat IS confusing)
• Selection and targeting *sometimes* still bugs out
• Characters still don't quite pop enough (color wise) relative to the scene
• Ridiculously fast movement speed (especially creature movement speed)
• Not enough Combat Feedback (IE style targeting reticle is needed, Engagement needs a UI, Better combat sound design)
• Mechanical transparency (there are issues atm)
• Combat feels are wonky - you kinda deal damage too slowly, recovery is slow but combat is still frantic (probably due to damage intake)

And probably more stuff I forgot to mention

 

Still a lot of work to do getting combat to feel right

Edited September 6, 2014 by Sensuki

[Monte Carlo]

^ Sensuki is all that stuff fixable?

[Sensuki]

Maybe.

 

I also had an idea for Stamina and Health as well.

 

What about if Health was not damaged during combat, and when combat was over, your Health heals your Stamina. So Health values would need to be a lot higher, once you have no Health left, you've got your Stamina and that's it.

 

Healing spells heal out of your health pool. 

 

You probably don't need a Health bar then, just a number, which could be displayed under the portrait.

 

Quick not even trying mspaint mock up

 

Edited September 6, 2014 by Sensuki

[Namutree]

 

 

You're right (I really enjoy RTS and MOBA play myself), it's a combination of things:

 

• Poor combat idle animations - will be doing a vid on this soon
• Spell FX being too flashy - I warned Obsidian about this twice, btw
• Lower camera angle outside
• Characters disappearing into the environment (the sorting is too extreme with the grass etc)
• Larger sized enemies and characters relative to the scale of the environment compared to the IE games
• Obtuse Combat HUDS (If you use them. I can see *exactly* why they made them because combat IS confusing)
• Selection and targeting *sometimes* still bugs out
• Characters still don't quite pop enough (color wise) relative to the scene
• Ridiculously fast movement speed (especially creature movement speed)
• Not enough Combat Feedback (IE style targeting reticle is needed, Engagement needs a UI, Better combat sound design)
• Mechanical transparency (there are issues atm)
• Combat feels are wonky - you kinda deal damage too slowly, recovery is slow but combat is still frantic (probably due to damage intake)

And probably more stuff I forgot to mention

 

Still a lot of work to do getting combat to feel right

 

That pretty much sums it up. I feel the damage issue is the most serious. 

[Ashen Rohk]

Maybe.

 

I also had an idea for Stamina and Health as well.

 

What about if Health was not damaged during combat, and when combat was over, your Health heals your Stamina. So Health values would need to be a lot higher, once you have no Health left, you've got your Stamina and that's it.

 

Healing spells heal out of your health pool. 

 

You probably don't need a Health bar then, just a number, which could be displayed under the portrait.

 

Quick not even trying mspaint mock up

 

Nice idea, but I've always felt that the red spreading across the portrait was a quick reference for stamina so you can pause it and highlight the character in order to heal/cleanse. I just think I wouldn't take much notice of an HP counter.

[Captain Shrek]

Maybe.

 

I also had an idea for Stamina and Health as well.

 

What about if Health was not damaged during combat, and when combat was over, your Health heals your Stamina. So Health values would need to be a lot higher, once you have no Health left, you've got your Stamina and that's it.

 

Healing spells heal out of your health pool. 

 

You probably don't need a Health bar then, just a number, which could be displayed under the portrait.

 

Quick not even trying mspaint mock u

You mean like old CON from DnD? *Horror*

[Sensuki]

Nice idea, but I've always felt that the red spreading across the portrait was a quick reference for stamina so you can pause it and highlight the character in order to heal/cleanse. I just think I wouldn't take much notice of an HP counter.

No the red on the portrait would still fill for Stamina damage

 

The bottom is Health number, which would heal your stamina from healing spells / out of combat

 

You mean like old CON from DnD? *Horror*

Not really, it's similar to 4E Healing Surges though I suppose.

 

I don't mind the current mechanic but there's a lot of people that don't like it.

 

The most important thing to keep is that there is no way to heal your strategical health resource, but the actual mechanic could change as long as that fact is kept.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

Your great list there (which is, like you said, incomplete) whetted my appetite for your big combat thread. We need to discuss possible solutions on how to make it into a really good experience, and the sooner, the better.

[Caladian]

The stamina/HP divide is great.  The quantities and attrition rate of both needs to be fiddled with but otherwise, I love the mechanic.  To make it work properly, it is now only a numbers game to adjust.

[Captain Shrek]

 

Nice idea, but I've always felt that the red spreading across the portrait was a quick reference for stamina so you can pause it and highlight the character in order to heal/cleanse. I just think I wouldn't take much notice of an HP counter.

No the red on the portrait would still fill for Stamina damage

 

The bottom is Health number, which would heal your stamina from healing spells / out of combat

 

You mean like old CON from DnD? *Horror*

Not really, it's similar to 4E Healing Surges though I suppose.

 

I don't mind the current mechanic but there's a lot of people that don't like it.

 

The most important thing to keep is that there is no way to heal your strategical health resource, but the actual mechanic could change as long as that fact is kept.

 

 

Actually in PnP DnD if you take damage and then rest, the amount you heal = 1 + Con modifier. 

[Sensuki]

Actually in PnP DnD if you take damage and then rest, the amount you heal = 1 + Con modifier.

Yeah but my idea is about out-of-combat healing from your daily health pool

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I try and think how this system would play in the IE games. The thought scares me. Indira, you're playing BG:EE right now. How would you feel if you didn't have healing potions and spells and the only way to heal your party members were limited camping supplies or trekking back to inns? Having a couple or few encounters and resting all the time. And PoE is supposedly in the size of BG1. The thought of entering a new map and knowing I'll likely have to rest or trek back to an inn before I even complete the map isn't encouraging.

 

Another problem I realised with this system, looking at Indira's other thread, is that in the IE games your characters and enemies could miss and not do any damage. In PoE, the enemies always hit even if it's grazes. I've never seen an enemy miss although it's supposedly rare. This just exacerbates the problem of having your characters take damage and not being able to heal your characters health.

 

Yep, we need healing potions or spells. Something, anything, that can heal your health instead of resting.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Mayama]

Another problem I realised with this system, looking at Indira's other thread, is that in the IE games your characters and enemies could miss and not do any damage

Just nitpicking here but in AD&D melee always hits

[Sensuki]

Another problem I realised with this system, looking at Indira's other thread, is that in the IE games your characters and enemies could miss and not do any damage. In PoE, the enemies always hit even if it's grazes. I've never seen an enemy miss although it's supposedly rare. This just exacerbates the problem of having your characters take damage and not being able to heal your characters health.

 

Yep, we need healing potions or spells. Something, anything, that can heal your health instead of resting.

Yeah that's something I will be pointing out. I think Deflection values are low so that hits and grazes are the most common thing, but perhaps combat would be more fun if that was not the case.

 

Currently you get damaged pretty much every single monster hit, and this is one of the things contributing to the short adventuring day. In the IE games this did not happen, so you did not lose much health after an encounter.

 

Josh reckons its not fun standing there missing, well it's not much fun standing there being hit every time either.

 

Just nitpicking here but in AD&D melee always hits

Which version? You don't always hit in 2E.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Sensuki

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Well I can understand why Josh didn't want to put an 'hour' figure on how long the game is. This will probably take longer to finish than BG2 due to all the resting and trekking back to inns.

[Sabotin]

How about making it so that health defines max stamina out of combat? Visually the red would fill from the top and after combat it would recede/progress up to the green bar's level. I think this would make the concept of health a bit more clear.

[Sensuki]

Athletics (the skill) does that when you're tired

[Iucounu]

Doesn't matter if hits, misses, critical hits, grazes etc. if on average the damage compared to health stays relatively the same. The whole idea behind less misses was to make combat less random anyway, and I don't think Obsidian is going to change this. 

[Namutree]

Doesn't matter if hits, misses, critical hits, grazes etc. if on average the damage compared to health stays relatively the same. The whole idea behind less misses was to make combat less random anyway, and I don't think Obsidian is going to change this. 

I agree. I think the most realistic fix is either to make petty enemies weaker, or to give us more health. Not more stamina; just more health.

[Sabotin]

Maybe they should find a way to spread the damage a bit between characters. How does the AI work, do they ever switch targets or go for the squishies? In another thread there was complaining about 1-2 pt members taking all the damage and the ranged characters being best naked. Seems like it's related. Although it's probably best to make the mechanics robust over bandaging it with other systems.

[Namutree]

Maybe they should find a way to spread the damage a bit between characters. How does the AI work, do they ever switch targets or go for the squishies? In another thread there was complaining about 1-2 pt members taking all the damage and the ranged characters being best naked. Seems like it's related. Although it's probably best to make the mechanics robust over bandaging it with other systems.

Lowering the speed penalty for wearing armor would certainly help. I think a 20% reduction would be good.

 

When I say 20% reduction I don't mean that a 30% penalty would go down to 10%. I mean that a 30% penalty would go down to 24%.

 

This would help deal with the drawn out trash battles and help deal with the naked party problem.

 

EDIT: "Naked party problem"? Never thought I'd say that.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Namutree

[Hiro Protagonist II]

As long as there are penalties for wearing armour, it won't solve the issue for naked ranged characters or even melee characters who aren't being hit by enemies. They need to get rid of penalties altogether for characters to wear armour. It's too exploitable with penalties at the moment.

 

Also, I've found the enemy AI will attack the party member that aggroed it and will usually not change to other party members. So if a wizard fireballed a couple of enemies, they'll usually ignore your front line members, run past them and dogpile on your wizard. So the best way I found is to time it so my Fighter will aggro an enemy a half second before throwing a fireball or other spells from your ranged characters so the enemy goes to your Fighter first.

 

Also, I don't see the point in redistributing damage to your other characters as a solution by moving your ranged characters into melee just so your Fighter can take a breather. It goes against the design of those characters. That's not the solution. We know what the solution is, healing spells and potions.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Infinitron]

I don't see an inherent problem with the concept of swapping armor for different tactical roles. What, because it doesn't look cool? What's the big deal about wearing armor if you don't really need it anyway?

 

I guess some RPG players are stuck in this mental box, where swapping weapons is okay/normal, but armor is more ingrained into their conception of who their character actually is.

 

Running around naked just needs to be riskier. Also, having some DT 0 clothes with no speed penalty would help make it look less silly.

 

 

It goes against the design of those characters.

 

Says who

Edited September 6, 2014 by Infinitron

[Namutree]

 

It goes against the design of those characters.

 

Says who

Some classes like the ranger are designed at the moment to not be front liners, and classes like the fighter are only useful in the front.