Health & Stamina, failed design?

[mutonizer]

From what I've seen so far (watched a lot of video and streams, most very helpful), there seems to be a huge issue with the concept of Health & Stamina (which I first liked when I heard about it). Here are a couple example that I've seen and some I'm guessing will happen.

 

 

1) Party has one fighter meant to "tank" and "engage" as much as possible while the others are free to do whatever. The team is fighting overall very easy but also very hard hitting critters (when they hit) so they're not using any real resources, just bows and guns. The fighter has very high DEF but sometimes the critters get lucky and get a hit in. After three or four fights, fighter is at 1/3 Health while the entire team is completely, 100% fresh. There is NOTHING you can do but go back to an inn (since resting doesn't give the crazy bonus to attributes).

 

2) You just rested and come back fresh into a dungeon. Move 3 feet and miss-click, your cleric setting up a deadly trap that you knew about and should have avoided easily. Cleric is now at 1/2 Health, entire team is 100% fresh...Again, NOTHING you can do but immediately go back to the inn, rest and hike the way back...

 

3) You arrive at the Boss, you know it. Entire team is fully ready but your damn fighter did a marvelous job at keeping all enemies engaged and the team safe. He's at 10% Health, while the others are full Health and full spell slots. Nothing you can do but suck it up, hike ALL THE WAY back to the inn (and since some dungeons will be quite big, have fun with that), rest to get the bonus the hike ALL the way back.

 

4) You just went to the inn and rested, and are on the way back to the dungeon, to fight that damn boss. Random encounter on the way (not sure if there will be some, let's say there will be): very easy die in one hit but crazy accuracy monsters. You wipe the floor with them but once again, fighter took some hits and is back at 1/2 Health...Nothing you can do but suck it up, once again, and hike all the way back to the inn to rest.

 

5) You totally suck and just mass group "click click click" auto-attack like a blind man on steroid with whatever's coming your way.Mobs hits some characters, then some others, some go down, it's total clusterfrak every fight.  You reach the boss finally, and notice that your entire team is between 1/2 and 3/4 Health...you engage, fireball in the lot, lose some people, but nobody dies due to Health issue (just KO with 0 stamina, because they die too fast to be healed, unlike a fighter)

 

See where I'm going with this? The Health and Stamina system, especially if you have the "dead" option activated, means that any attempt to properly "tank" anything and succeed, means you get actually penalized. The only reasonable option here is to max CON on EVERYONE, and just spread the damage as much as possible.

 

From what I've seen, either some "tank" classes (fighter and paladin, but I'm guessing also ranger pet and druid) need some Health restoration abilities or buffs, or there need to be a way to heal Health somehow which doesn't include resting.

 

 

 

[AlekzanderZ]

I agree.

[Zwiebelchen]

Signed.

 

Having both health and stamina as resources is a good idea and I see why they added it (make death irreversible for lore and narrative reasons, but allow players to make mistakes in combat that cause a character to drop), but the system itself is broken in that it punishes the player for playing strategical.

 

Something has to be changed about it, in the way it is implemented currently, it's just not fun.

[swordofthesith]

Um. Whatever happened to your camp gear? Always make sure to bring some camp gear along to avoid having to haul back to the inn every time your party gets a little beaten out of shape.

[Sensuki]

This system makes me see how good Health and strategical healing (daily healing spells, and healing potions) really is.

 

That said, I think it would be better if the Stamina to Health damage ratio was doubled.

 

Currently it's like 1 stamina damage = 0.25 Health Damage (1:4)

and for Barbarians it's like 1 stamina damage = 0.166 Health Damage (1:6)

 

I'd like to see that doubled, and then we can tune from there.

 

@swordofthesith

 

The issue is the length of the adventuring day. I mentioned this on the very first day the beta was released. In PE atm at least on Hard, you have to rest after a handful of encounters (this is, without using OP classes like Ciphers, Chanters and Druids and OP guns/arbalest stacks). You don't even get the chance to scratch the surface of how many daily spells/abilities you have.

 

In the IE games you could take on MANY encounters in a row without having to rest. In PE you can only do a handful.

 

I think this is really outfowack and needs to be altered so that the length of the adventuring day has more of an IE feel.

 

Double Stamina to Health damage ratio and reduce the number of camping supplies you get to compensate.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Sensuki

[swordofthesith]

 

The issue is the length of the adventuring day. I mentioned this on the very first day the beta was released. In PE atm at least on Hard, you have to rest after a handful of encounters (this is, without using OP classes like Ciphers, Chanters and Druids and OP guns/arbalest stacks). You don't even get the chance to scratch the surface of how many daily spells/abilities you have.

 

In the IE games you could take on MANY encounters in a row without having to rest. In PE you can only do a handful.

 

I think this is really outfowack and needs to be altered so that the length of the adventuring day has more of an IE feel.

 

Hi Sens!

 

Agreed! The adventuring day is quite short! Would be great to hear from Obsidian if they have cranked the difficulty of the Backer Beta to get the most bang out of the class powers & talents in the game. However, if that is not the case I do think there should be some balancing down further down the line around your suggestions of a modified health and stamina ratio. 

 

And RE dailies/spells - right now I throw everything and the kitchen sink for each encounter. Not very efficient and it does again make a for a very short adventuring day but I enjoy it as a great to mix up tactics and powers during these testing phases. 

Edited September 4, 2014 by swordofthesith

[mutonizer]

Um. Whatever happened to your camp gear? Always make sure to bring some camp gear along to avoid having to haul back to the inn every time your party gets a little beaten out of shape.

You don't seem to get any bonus from it (unlike the inn which offers 15% to 90% bonus to some attributes) and it's artificially limited by your difficulty setting (easy max out at X, hard max out at Y, etc) while there is otherwise no weight or volume to any item, and you have an infinite stash of holding from the get go.

 

I'd like to see that doubled, and then we can tune from there.

That just sweeps the issue under the rug though and risk making the whole thing completely irrelevant for easy/normal difficulty, while still completely screwed for anything harder. Not to mention completely crazy for any ironman mode because Health remains the only game-over mechanics. Edited September 4, 2014 by mutonizer

[Infinitron]

Reposting:

 

 

 

 

[..]On the other hand, if you're letting your one tank get f*cked up constantly, that's kind of your fault.

Hmm, what's the role of a tank is not to be the one to get ****ed up instead of others?
I mean you might not agree with the need for a tank (which I have no problem with), but once you allow that path to be taken, then that's pretty much their role? I mean, fighters have nothing but talents dedicated to do just that, soaking up damage and get ****ed up constantly. The more you use resources to "CC" and "prevent damage", the more useless they become at their one and only role in the game...
...so it's not a failure or a fault if your tank gets ****ed up really, according to the game design, at least some of it, it's actually a success if the tank is getting hit constantly, because that's what everything in the class is designed for...except the Health system...

 

 

Depends how define tanking. If you define "tanking" as "the character that stops enemies in their tracks and takes most of the hits", then the health system is irrelevant and the fighter is doing his job just fine.

 

But if you define "tanking" as "the character that absorbs most of the party's total health resources", then yeah, Pillars of Eternity makes that impossible, because the only health/healing resource available to a character is his own health bar.

 

So there's a tradeoff between tanking and having to worry about long-term/strategic damage spread across your entire party, unlike the Infinity Engine games where you could "healbot" your tank until you ran out of healing spells, and he was 100% effective until that time.

 

I don't think this is necessarily a downside. In fact, it makes me laugh. A lot of people on this forum complained that "Pillars of Eternity pigeonholes us into MMO-style 'combat roles'!" Yet here is a mechanic that diminishes those roles and forces you to mix it up more...and now people are complaining about that. 

 

[Sensuki]

That just sweeps the issue under the rug though and risk making the whole thing completely irrelevant for easy/normal difficulty, while still completely screwed for anything harder. Not to mention completely crazy for any ironman mode because Health remains the only game-over mechanics.

I don't think so, it gives you more wiggle room. The issue with Fighter at the front and rest at the back is not an issue with Health, but class design and balancing/tuning encounters/enemies I think. The Attack Resolution normalizes hits so you take damage more often than you did in the IE games, and I think that currently Health is not compensating for that, or the extra strategical resources you have at your disposal in the IE games (such as health potions and healing spells and whatnot).

 

D&D 4E's Healing Surge system kinda works pretty well.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Sensuki

[Karkarov]

This system makes me see how good Health and strategical healing (daily healing spells, and healing potions) really is.

 

That said, I think it would be better if the Stamina to Health damage ratio was doubled.

 

Currently it's like 1 stamina damage = 0.25 Health Damage (1:4)

and for Barbarians it's like 1 stamina damage = 0.166 Health Damage (1:6)

 

I'd like to see that doubled, and then we can tune from there.

Concur.  Health damage piles on the tanks too quickly right now.

[Tartantyco]

I don't have any issues with the current system. A few values here and there might have to be changed here and there, but the Stamina/Health system works as it should.

[mutonizer]

These are not "MMO styles" roles. MMOs just stereotyped them to the extremes for game-play purposes (and button pushing!)

They are core concepts behind most heroic/epic settings/tales for the past thousands of years, core concepts behind actual warfare for probably just as long and been part of RPGs since the beginning.

 

So yea...before MMOs, there was..you know..history and logic

Edited September 4, 2014 by mutonizer

[PrimeJunta]

Yeh, the mechanic itself is fine. Lots of stuff needs adjusting though. Damage, DT, HP, deflection, stamina/health damage ratio, DoT things and so on. It's kind of to be expected that the numbers are all over the place at this point.

[Mayama]

I actually would love a system that does not have typical tanks/dps classes/builds. I dont know for what they aim in PoE but combat with good AI that is clever enough to make the stereotypical rpg "formation" impossible would be great.

[mutonizer]

I actually would love a system that does not have typical tanks/dps classes/builds. I dont know for what they aim in PoE but combat with good AI that is clever enough to make the stereotypical rpg "formation" impossible would be great.

I'm 200% with you on that, really. Would be great to go away from all this because the AI can really act with cohesion, evolving battle plans that dynamically react to not only what you do, but what they analyze and guess your guys can do and all that.

 

But 1) That's going REALLY far from the IE games feel (which are really stereotyped fantasy settings/mood/stories/etc) and 2) It would take some CRAZY AI programming focus from the get go and some really "out-there" game mechanics.

So yea..I agree...not seeing this anywhere for PoE though

[Mayama]

 

I actually would love a system that does not have typical tanks/dps classes/builds. I dont know for what they aim in PoE but combat with good AI that is clever enough to make the stereotypical rpg "formation" impossible would be great.

I'm 200% with you on that, really. Would be great to go away from all this because the AI can really act with cohesion, evolving battle plans that dynamically react to not only what you do, but what they analyze and guess your guys can do and all that.

 

But 1) That's going REALLY far from the IE games feel (which are really stereotyped fantasy settings/mood/stories/etc) and 2) It would take some CRAZY AI programming focus from the get go and some really "out-there" game mechanics.

So yea..I agree...not seeing this anywhere for PoE though

 

Theirs a mod for final fantasy tactics for PS2 (you can use it with an emulator) that does that. Its turn based but from an AI perspective that should not make a difference. Its a merciless and brutal AI that hunts down the weakest prey in your party and knows all the tricks that players used for years to counter the unmoded AI. 

[mutonizer]

Yea I checked it out, but it's a LOT based around re-balancing/nerfing/un-nerfing everything, even more than AI changes really (while they are there for sure).

[Zed]

I've proposed a multi-stage fatigue system instead of a system with two float values.

 

Say some dudes do mortal kombat. One dude gets knocked out (0 hp).

Combat is over and the knocked out dude rises, and is afflicted by fatigue. -25% to all attributes, or whatever.

If the dude is knocked out again, he could gain something like an additional -15% penalty.

And again, and again, until he is un-revivable.

Difficulty could affect this. On normal, maybe you could only be knocked out 2 times before permanent death. Or Expert, or whatever.

 

This could go hand in hand with a BG-like sleep/rest system.

 

Stamina/Health system just doesn't work for me.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Zed

[Sensuki]

So yea...before MMOs, there was..you know..history and logic

Someone told me that "Tank, DPS and Support" originated from MUDs.

[mutonizer]

Someone told me that "Tank, DPS and Support" originated from MUDs.

The words? Sure, why not.

The concepts? You can find them already present all the way back to Ancient Greek warfare and they are still active today in modern armies, all somewhat derived from concepts of "soak" (hold), "dps" (sweep/shock, ie cavalry) and "support" (supply/comms/engineering, etc).

 

Edit: Well, warfare that "won" that is. There are plenty of examples using different systems and..well..they all got wtfpwned at some point, against that concept of warfare

Edited September 4, 2014 by mutonizer

[Sensuki]

The words, yeah.

[Zansatsu]

I actually would love a system that does not have typical tanks/dps classes/builds. I dont know for what they aim in PoE but combat with good AI that is clever enough to make the stereotypical rpg "formation" impossible would be great.

I agree that the tank dps heals concept is not needed for an RPG, but that would require class overhauls and intelligent AI. If enemies always go after high threat targets then those targets need some means to mitigate, a complete combat overhaul in this case which sounds much harder than changing health/stamina around. your talking about much more cc, slows, fears,and things. Then what good is a fighter atm, his whole class which before had a 1 dimensional use becomes a throw away. Same with the monk who requires agro or he is pointless.

[Sensuki]

The class design (actually probably more due to deflection and accuracy scores) kind of pidgeonhole classes into a role.

[Mayama]

 

I actually would love a system that does not have typical tanks/dps classes/builds. I dont know for what they aim in PoE but combat with good AI that is clever enough to make the stereotypical rpg "formation" impossible would be great.

I agree that the tank dps heals concept is not needed for an RPG, but that would require class overhauls and intelligent AI. If enemies always go after high threat targets then those targets need some means to mitigate, a complete combat overhaul in this case which sounds much harder than changing health/stamina around. your talking about much more cc, slows, fears,and things. Then what good is a fighter atm, his whole class which before had a 1 dimensional use becomes a throw away. Same with the monk who requires agro or he is pointless.

 

It would fit the whole "no bad but different builds" philosphy way better than tank/healer/dps. A gw2'ish approach in which every class can cover most parts of the game would be needed. You could also easily avoid most of the problems that the system had in gw2 because you dont need to balance the classes against each other.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Mayama

[Ganrich]

I really dig the health/stamina system, but it definitely needs tweaking. Either the ratios or the DT, buffs, debuffs, and CCs need to be more potent or prevalent (depending on class).

 

I definitely don't think the system has failed.

 

@Sensuki - I thought the barbarian health ratio was 1/8 H/S. Did they change that with this patch?