Ukraine discussion

[Fighter]

Typical Russian lack of stomach for a proper scrap. What else can be expected from a nation that got taken apart by a bunch of yurt-dwelling nomads? They're lucky old John Bull didn't have to roll up his sleeves. They didn't come out of the last British intervention in the Crimea too well at all.

 

*fart noise*

[obyknven]

Good news, I  can see it appears that Russian troops have started to withdraw from Ukraine

 

http://news.yahoo.com/russian-withdrawal-ukraine-tiny-first-step-us-214931730.html;_ylt=AwrBT8k5YRFUWPoArWdXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTExcTdidDdsBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1VJQzFfMQ

 

Not sure how that's possible considering the fact there were no  Russian troops in Ukraine to begin with

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko's announcement Wednesday that Marsians had withdrawn the bulk of its forces from his country.

  :lol:  He constantly talk nonsence

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/07/us-ukraine-crisis-nato-arms-idUSKBN0H20E820140907

[obyknven]

http://youtu.be/hF_RguYpBnU

German movie (with english subtitles) about Ukrainian military madskillz.

[obyknven]

Photo evidence of  Russian invasion into Ukraine!

[Volourn]

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/special-report-moscow-stifles-dissent-soldiers-return-coffins-090051931.html

[ktchong]

[obyknven]

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/special-report-moscow-stifles-dissent-soldiers-return-coffins-090051931.html

Yeah, Russian stealth troops in stealth tanks from C&C.

Dude, Russians giggling about this Western propaganda - just imagine few seconds of meteorite fly in siberia documented by many cams, but no one video evidence exist of masses of Russian troops invaded Ukraine during few months. In modern world cams and internets everywhere, such lack of proofs is just impossible.

Also for your education - article about US propaganda from US propagandists, how it working.

http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.ru/2014/09/propoganda.html

 

P.S. CA - lol, too much Ukrainians (and Ukrainian nationalists) in this country, they constantly spread crazy bull****. Canada also is our competitor in Arctic region - such hostille anti-russian propagand is quite typical for them in lat time ( Other our competitor is Australia - they acting against Russia too ).

I think the source of the information tells more than the information itself.

 

[obyknven]

Just colonial news.

Ukrainian general kneeling to Metropolitan US ambassador. 

 

Ukrainian government try save Ukrainian economics, but their masters  ban this, because such actions can make harm to economic interests of Metropoly.

 

Rebels take this headcam from dead body of Azov Battalion member. On video mercs from Metropoly  cosplay Ukrainian soldiers.

http://my.mail.ru/mail/katala.tyuryaga/video/Voina/1754.html?timestamp=74

[Zoraptor]

...

 

If that's really an IMF letter I'd suggest they go back to school to learn how to write proper formal correspondence. Plus it has the most pointless redactions ever, I spent literally no time wondering who Ms X Lagarde head of the IMF and Mr Arseniy Y_k 'PM' of Ukraine were.

 

And I see that those fine democrats in Kiev, not content with disbanding rival political parties are now moving to have 'loyalty and corruption tests' for 'government employees' (oddly enough targeting anyone suspected of being sympathetic to the Communists or PoR; sure it's a coincidence that their kleptocrats like Tymoshenko are exempt), passed after the guy who disbanded the opposition party by fiat, ex putsch 'President' Turchenov, said he wouldn't allow members to leave the Rada without it being passed. So nice to see democracy in action, purges, disbanding parties- for being 'too small'; the Communists got more votes than Svoboda so go figure- lock ins, and the complete lack of triumphalism and total focus on reconciliation. Oh, and for some odd reason the beeb et alia keep reporting that the east has been offered autonomy or devolution or something without mentioning it's for three years, rather than being permanent. Must have got some of those Polish weapons though, they're talking up the military response again, just like after the last ceasefire.

 

'Democratic and western orientated', roflcopters.

[BruceVC]

...

 

If that's really an IMF letter I'd suggest they go back to school to learn how to write proper formal correspondence. Plus it has the most pointless redactions ever, I spent literally no time wondering who Ms X Lagarde head of the IMF and Mr Arseniy Y_k 'PM' of Ukraine were.

 

And I see that those fine democrats in Kiev, not content with disbanding rival political parties are now moving to have 'loyalty and corruption tests' for 'government employees' (oddly enough targeting anyone suspected of being sympathetic to the Communists or PoR; sure it's a coincidence that their kleptocrats like Tymoshenko are exempt), passed after the guy who disbanded the opposition party by fiat, ex putsch 'President' Turchenov, said he wouldn't allow members to leave the Rada without it being passed. So nice to see democracy in action, purges, disbanding parties- for being 'too small'; the Communists got more votes than Svoboda so go figure- lock ins, and the complete lack of triumphalism and total focus on reconciliation. Oh, and for some odd reason the beeb et alia keep reporting that the east has been offered autonomy or devolution or something without mentioning it's for three years, rather than being permanent. Must have got some of those Polish weapons though, they're talking up the military response again, just like after the last ceasefire.

 

'Democratic and western orientated', roflcopters.

 

I don't think its unreasonable what the Ukrainian government is trying to do. There objective is simple, "" to route out any stinking Commie sympathizers who want to drag Ukraine back to the benighted days of Communism "

 

And there must be certain Putin apologists who need do to be identified and removed from interfering in the destiny of Ukraine which is to align itself both politically and socially with the West? You can see the logic Zora?

 

[obyknven]

Meanwhile....

Ukrainian government blow up power plant near of Lugansk, this leaving over one million people around it without power.

http://englishrussia.com/2014/09/17/power-plant-destroyed-million-people-left-powerless/

On this video ( 3 september 2014) commander of Ukrainian Naziguard batallion say he mined Lugansk power plant and promise explode this plant if rebels continue resistance.

http://youtu.be/yV9jPsxazsg

Classical terrorism this is.... Though what different can be expected from such people.

 

Lviv, yet another night march of Ukrainian non-Nazi.

http://youtu.be/FL-sPw1O6Ng

 

 

[obyknven]

Power of contrast.

Ukraine

http://youtu.be/FL-sPw1O6Ng

 

and Crimea

http://youtu.be/PPaEYoPnA1k

 

All this western propaganda about Russian occupation of Crimea can cause only laugh now

 

[obyknven]

Free market so free.

http://www.swift.com/about_swift/shownews?param_dcr=news.data/en/swift_com/2014/PR_EU_statement.xml

 

SWIFT Statement

 

 

On 18 September the European Parliament voted through a non-binding Resolution ("on the situation in Ukraine and the state of play of EU-Russia relations" (2014/2841(RSP)) )  in which SWIFT was singled out.

Under fundamental principles of European law, enshrined in the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, the singling out of SWIFT in this manner interferes disproportionately with SWIFT's fundamental right to conduct business and its right to property. It also constitutes discriminatory and unequal treatment. Explicitly mentioning SWIFT in a European Parliament resolution of this kind on such an international sensitive matter also creates immense damage to our company's reputation. Our mission remains to be a global and neutral service provider to the financial industry.

The provision of financial messaging services to Russian entities is not affected by the current measures in force.

Welcome to bright new world order, kingdom of true freedom and democracy lol.

[Shallow]

I don't think its unreasonable what the Ukrainian government is trying to do. There objective is simple, "" to route out any stinking Commie sympathizers who want to drag Ukraine back to the benighted days of Communism "

 

And there must be certain Putin apologists who need do to be identified and removed from interfering in the destiny of Ukraine which is to align itself both politically and socially with the West? You can see the logic Zora?

 

 

Shouldn't political freedom in your own country be a bit more important than pleasing ***holes to the west of your country? I hope you're joking, because otherwise all critisicm you could possibly make against Russia being undemocratic falls flat on its face, the whole idea that the west has to the right to poop all over everywhere is stupid anyhow, Russia sure has a better claim for having some say in what goes in Ukraine than the US does, if the west had upheld their deal with Gorbachov and not sought to force the East into its sphere of influence we wouldn't even be having these problems.

[Volourn]

"Russia sure has a better claim for having some say in what goes in Ukraine than the US does,"

 

No, they don't. Ukraine is a different country than US or Russia. Neither way has a 'better claim' than the other. Then again, it isn't the US murdering Ukrainians. It's Russia doing that.

[Shallow]

"Russia sure has a better claim for having some say in what goes in Ukraine than the US does,"

 

No, they don't. Ukraine is a different country than US or Russia. Neither way has a 'better claim' than the other. Then again, it isn't the US murdering Ukrainians. It's Russia doing that.

Ukraine is at Russias borders, the same way Mexico is at the USs borders, thus the situation in Ukraine effects Russia a lot more than it does the US, and Russia has some right to insure **** from Ukraine doesn't spill over into Russia, and some right to insure people with hostile intent aren't allowed to set up camp right next to them, you can't say Russia doesn't have some valid claim to not wanting NATO setting up camp in Ukraine right next to the Russian border. Secondly, and just as importantly, back when Gorbachov agreed to back off East Germany, an agreement was made that NATO would never be extended east, unlike Russia, the US promised to mind its own damn buisness.

 

US is funding the Ukrainian army, is helping with training the Ukrainian army, is trying to dominate Ukrainian politics, no doubt was encouraging the whole IMF telling Ukraine to go kill some rebels and take back the east or they wouldn't get their money check, and likely helped instigate the coup. the US isn't exactly innocent in all this, not that Russia is either.

 

I will however concede that generally speaking, the world would be much better off if ***holes from the various great powers weren't actively destablizing every other nation in an attempt to get their richies more profitable deals there.

[Volourn]

"Ukraine is at Russias borders, the same way Mexico is at the USs borders, thus the situation in Ukraine effects Russia a lot more than it does the US, and Russia has some right to insure **** from Ukraine doesn't spill over into Russia, and some right to insure people with hostile intent aren't allowed to set up camp right next to them, you can't say Russia doesn't have some valid claim to not wanting NATO setting up camp in Ukraine right next to the Russian border. Secondly, and just as importantly, back when Gorbachov agreed to back off East Germany, an agreement was made that NATO would never be extended east, unlike Russia, the US promised to mind its own damn buisness.

 

US is funding the Ukrainian army, is helping with training the Ukrainian army, is trying to dominate Ukrainian politics, no doubt was encouraging the whole IMF telling Ukraine to go kill some rebels and take back the east or they wouldn't get their money check, and likely helped instigate the coup. the US isn't exactly innocent in all this, not that Russia is either.

 

I will however concede that generally speaking, the world would be much better off if ***holes from the various great powers weren't actively destablizing every other nation in an attempt to get their richies more profitable deals there."

 

*yawn* US is doingt hat because Ukraine asked them to. They have permission by the country. That's like saying the US shouldn't be in Britain at all even thoguh they have permission. Russia does not have permission to murder Ukrainians. Don't defend Ukraine's evil actions. Ukraine was/is not a threat to Russia. As evidenced by Russia has pretty much done what they want and Ukraine can't do squat. If Ukraine can't even keep Russia out of Ukraine how the hell are they a threat to Russia itself? DOES. NOT. COMPUTE.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Volourn

[obyknven]

*yawn* US is doingt hat because Ukraine asked them to. They have permission by the country.

*yawn* It's same way as asking permission of own hand before fapping.

[Shallow]

*yawn* US is doingt hat because Ukraine asked them to. They have permission by the country. That's like saying the US shouldn't be in Britain at all even thoguh they have permission. Russia does not have permission to murder Ukrainians. Don't defend Ukraine's evil actions. Ukraine was/is not a threat to Russia. As evidenced by Russia has pretty much done what they want and Ukraine can't do squat. If Ukraine can't even keep Russia out of Ukraine how the hell are they a threat to Russia itself? DOES. NOT. COMPUTE.

Luhansk & Donetsk also asked Russia for aid, seeing as the coup wasn't democratic, and in the election prorussian candidates were beaten down, Luhansk & Donetsk are at least as legitimate as western Ukraine. And how is Ukraine a threat to Russia? US setting up bases there due to potential NATO membership, various chaos due to a civil war on your border (even if Russia hadn't aided the rebels in any way odds are you'd still see blood spilt in the east), and many other less significant things, Russian people would probably also get unruly if action wasn't taken against Ukraine when events there were considered particularly bad to the Russian people living there.

[Volourn]

None of that changes the fact Ukraine was no/is no threat to Russia. Yet, Russia has no problem murdering Ukrainians. Then again, Russia loves to murder Russians so not surprising they'd have no problem murdering non Russians.

[Namutree]

I just hope that America will learn to mind it's own business.

[BruceVC]

I just hope that America will learn to mind it's own business.

 

That's not possible and its not something we actually want from a Western perspective  because despite the fact that some countries criticize the USA for imperialism and "interfering in there sovereignty " the world expects the USA to get involved when it comes to perceived military action. Just look at how "weak " Obama has been accused of  for not attacking  Iran and Syria

 

IMO its important that the USA continues to provide the military capability to intervene militarily in various conflicts because there are valid cases for it.

Edited September 19, 2014 by BruceVC

[Namutree]

 

I just hope that America will learn to mind it's own business.

 

That's not possible and its not something we actually want from a Western perspective  because despite the fact that some countries criticize the USA for imperialism and "interfering in there sovereignty " the world expects the USA to get involved when it comes to perceived military action. Just look at how "weak " Obama has been accused of  for not attacking  Iran and Syria

 

IMO its important that the USA continues to provide the military capability to intervene militarily in various conflicts because there are valid cases for it.

 

The world expects us to intervene all the time because we do. If we didn't; that expectation would disappear. Some people have accused Obama of being weak, but they're fools. It's not true, and even if Obama was "weak" I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I'd rather be weak than broke. The level of military spending we do isn't sustainable, and I'd rather we get out of this terrible business of intervention sooner rather than later.

[BruceVC]

 

 

I just hope that America will learn to mind it's own business.

 

That's not possible and its not something we actually want from a Western perspective  because despite the fact that some countries criticize the USA for imperialism and "interfering in there sovereignty " the world expects the USA to get involved when it comes to perceived military action. Just look at how "weak " Obama has been accused of  for not attacking  Iran and Syria

 

IMO its important that the USA continues to provide the military capability to intervene militarily in various conflicts because there are valid cases for it.

 

The world expects us to intervene all the time because we do. If we didn't; that expectation would disappear. Some people have accused Obama of being weak, but they're fools. It's not true, and even if Obama was "weak" I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I'd rather be weak than broke. The level of military spending we do isn't sustainable, and I'd rather we get out of this terrible business of intervention sooner rather than later.

 

 

Good point raised about being "weak " rather than broke

 

But here is a consideration and its more about the humanitarian imperative. If you go back to the Rwanda genocide and a way through intervention that the  USA could have intervened militarily to prevent that would you say they should have ? And I don't mean boots on the ground, nowadays military intervention can be about airstrikes, drones and special forces like we have seen in Libya and the campaign against ISIS

 

So in other words the financial cost for the USA to prevent that type of genocide is relatively negligible

Edited September 19, 2014 by BruceVC

[Namutree]

 

The world expects us to intervene all the time because we do. If we didn't; that expectation would disappear. Some people have accused Obama of being weak, but they're fools. It's not true, and even if Obama was "weak" I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I'd rather be weak than broke. The level of military spending we do isn't sustainable, and I'd rather we get out of this terrible business of intervention sooner rather than later.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good point raised about being "weak " rather than broke

 

But here is a consideration and its more about the humanitarian imperative. If you go back to the Rwanda genocide and a way through intervention that the  USA could have intervened militarily to prevent that would you say they should have ? And I don't mean boots on the ground, nowadays military intervention can be about airstrikes, drones and special forces like we have seen in Libya and the campaign against ISIS

 

So in other words the financial cost for the USA to prevent that type of genocide is relatively negligible

 

We live in a very flawed world, but it isn't our job to fix all the ills in the world; especially since our intervention tends to create new problems. I would not intervene in foreign affairs; even in cases of genocide. That would be beyond hypocritical considering our own history. 

 

We aren't the world's police. We don't have a right to dictate certain outcomes outside of our borders. Boycott is as far as we can ethically go in terms of shaping the world. I will not support anything beyond that.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Namutree