Game difficulty

[Namutree]

In the past I asked how difficult poe was going to be. Josh said the difficulty would be about the same as BG2. After playing the beta; I suspect the game will much harder.

 

I want to keep in mind that we didn't get talents which may make the game easier, but even so this is a little much. If trash mobs represent such a threat to a mid level party; it is much harder than any of the IE games.

 

I feel that these mobs make the game too consistently challenging and thus are mentally draining.

 

I suggest that the petty enemies like beetles and lions should receive a 10% hp downgrade. This will make exploring more fun since the player won't have to be super cautious that he doesn't bump into too many enemies at once. Also, this will make the petty battles less of a hassle and make special battles (Like the fight with the Ogre) feel more special.

 

I want to stress that only petty enemies need a downgrade.

[Bazy]

Why do you feel the mobs are challenging? I found they will pretty much just attack the first target they see. If this is the tank, everyone else could just sit back and kill from afar. 

 

And the only time I feel the IE games were difficult were the first few level (Tarnesh), mobs with insta-gib mechanics (int drain), or 2 minute hold spells cast on my tank. Everything else was pretty faceroll. I couldn't imagine playing them today without the stratagem Mods.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Bazy

[Namutree]

Why do you feel the mobs are challenging? I found they will pretty much just attack the first target they see. If this is the tank, everyone else could just sit back and kill from afar. 

 

And the only time I feel the IE games were difficulty were the first few level (Tarnesh), mobs with insta-gib mechanics (int drain), or 2 minute hold spells cast on my tank. Everything else was pretty faceroll.

Can I ask what difficulty you are playing on?

 

The enemies move too fast and are too tough. As a result; in order to beat them you need to use careful tactics. Consider the lions; if you just follow the path without much concern you will be swarmed by a pack of lions and almost certainly be killed on any difficulty but easy. In order to beat them you have to either bait them in small groups, or use some skillful tactics.

 

Remember, these are trash mobs not bosses. This is not a special encounter, just a few foes meant to break up exploration. It's not that I can't beat them; it's that it requires too much effort. I'll put it this way:

 

I like to fight Bowser, but sometimes I just wanna stomp on goombas.

[Grand_Commander13]

Those lions are something else. I went to fight them for a lark, and everything was fine until they critted my main character twice in a row.

 

There was some... Oddness with the monk's wound system, or something; I got taken down to 25% health from the first takedown.

[PIP-Clownboy]

Have yet to wipe or have main chr die on Hard despite key gear vanishing. Never even attempted the easier difficulties. 

[Bazy]

 

Why do you feel the mobs are challenging? I found they will pretty much just attack the first target they see. If this is the tank, everyone else could just sit back and kill from afar. 

 

And the only time I feel the IE games were difficulty were the first few level (Tarnesh), mobs with insta-gib mechanics (int drain), or 2 minute hold spells cast on my tank. Everything else was pretty faceroll.

Can I ask what difficulty you are playing on?

 

The enemies move too fast and are too tough. As a result; in order to beat them you need to use careful tactics. Consider the lions; if you just follow the path without much concern you will be swarmed by a pack of lions and almost certainly be killed on any difficulty but easy. In order to beat them you have to either bait them in small groups, or use some skillful tactics.

 

Remember, these are trash mobs not bosses. This is not a special encounter, just a few foes meant to break up exploration. It's not that I can't beat them; it's that it requires too much effort. I'll put it this way:

 

I like to fight Bowser, but sometimes I just wanna stomp on goombas.

 

I played on Normal.

 

I agree some mobs should be very easy. I think the lions are where they should be. They hit really really hard. But they are also dumb and will focus your tank. So either buff up your tank or CC the lions. The problem is every other encounter is the same way. 

 

The speed thing is an issue. I found the slow down feature to be very useful for early/mid combat until I have it under control.

 

I'm not sure what to say about being swarmed. Don't you see them before they see you?

Edited August 20, 2014 by Bazy

[Namutree]

Have yet to wipe or have main chr die on Hard despite key gear vanishing. Never even attempted the easier difficulties. 

What class are you? Maybe some classes are just under-powered or overpowered. Making people's game experience different.

[PrimeJunta]

Nah, it's only difficult because the combat doesn't work. Just wait, once they get the pathfinding, clusterhug bug, and Y U NO DO???? bug sorted plus maybe slow things down a bit, it'll be fine.

 

Another thing is that damage type matters a lot more here than in the IE games. That'll take a bit of effort to figure out, but once we're using the right tool for the job, those beasts will go down easy.

 

I got through the beetle mobs once with barely a scratch (on normal). Prob. couldn't have done as well with an IWD goblin mob.

 

One thing is obvious, though -- how you play matters, like, a lot. Choice of weapon, choice of buff(s), choice of debuff(s) especially. You can't just march up to a critter and expect to roflstomp it just because you minmaxed your character. That's a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

[PIP-Clownboy]

 

Have yet to wipe or have main chr die on Hard despite key gear vanishing. Never even attempted the easier difficulties. 

What class are you? Maybe some classes are just under-powered or overpowered. Making people's game experience different.

 

 

Barb, Cipher, Druid, Chanter. 

[Namutree]

 

I'm not sure what to say about being swarmed. Don't you see them before they see you?

 

Yes you do, and if you are very careful you can prevent them from overrunning your party. Again though; these are trash mobs. I shouldn't have to try so hard just to survive against them. BG2 certainly wasn't that hard where every battle was freakin' struggle if you weren't careful. 

 

Again, Josh specifically stated that poe wouldn't be harder than BG2. So he has work to do to balance the difficulty.

[Namutree]

 

 

Barb, Cipher, Druid, Chanter. 

 

I was a fighter; than Ranger. So it may be easier if I was those other classes.

[Zeckul]

I found the IE games very difficult initially. Now I find them kind of easy but that's the result of much learning. I like that I find PoE similarly challenging but in a system that's completely alien to me and will require learning from scratch.

[Bazy]

 

 

I'm not sure what to say about being swarmed. Don't you see them before they see you?

 

Yes you do, and if you are very careful you can prevent them from overrunning your party. Again though; these are trash mobs. I shouldn't have to try so hard just to survive against them. BG2 certainly wasn't that hard where every battle was freakin' struggle if you weren't careful. 

 

Again, Josh specifically stated that poe wouldn't be harder than BG2. So he has work to do to balance the difficulty.

 

"Our normal difficulty will not be tuned for casual players at all.  It will not be as hard as IWD2 but should be in the IWD/BG2 range.  Bumping it to Hard should put you into IWD2+ territory."

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/65036-pillars-of-eternity-has-lots-of-abilities-but-will-we-truly-need-to-use-them/?view=findpost&p=1414574

Edited August 20, 2014 by Bazy

[Namutree]

Nah, it's only difficult because the combat doesn't work. Just wait, once they get the pathfinding, clusterhug bug, and Y U NO DO???? bug sorted plus maybe slow things down a bit, it'll be fine.

 

You keep saying things I hope are true, but I doubt they are.

[Namutree]

 

It will not be as hard as IWD2 but should be in the IWD/BG2 range.  Bumping it to Hard should put you into IWD2+ territory."

It seems my memory was a bit off. Even so; as it stand poe is far above the IWD/BG2 range.

[Volourn]

I don't see it being hard. Played on normal. Did well in most combat. Have died maybe 4 times but twice was me being lazy and twice because have my team had no equipment include no grimoire. L0L

[Bazy]

 

 

It will not be as hard as IWD2 but should be in the IWD/BG2 range.  Bumping it to Hard should put you into IWD2+ territory."

It seems my memory was a bit off. Even so; as it stand poe is far above the IWD/BG2 range.

 

I think it depends on how you play:

1) If you run it with a bunch of melee it is tough

2) If you send your tank in first and have your ranged do all the work/cc when necessary it's pretty easy

 

The mobs hit hard. But almost everything is easy to avoid with decent positioning or some CC. Once you figure this out it become pretty repetitive due to lack of variety. 

 

 

To be clear I would prefer to play in Style 1. But I also don't like dying. 

Edited August 20, 2014 by Bazy

[Namutree]

I have a theory that the game's difficulty is tied to the classes players chose. So for those posting I would be grateful if you tell us what class you chose when you say the game way easy or hard.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Namutree

[Namutree]

 

The mobs hit hard. But almost everything is easy to avoid with decent positioning or some CC. Once you figure this out it become pretty repetitive due to lack of variety. 

 

 

This also would be helped by lowering petty mobs hp by 10%. Fights against standard enemies are never exciting for long, and benefit from being over quickly.

[BrokenMask]

Eh, so far I've done with all classes I have chosen, though I'm playing on easy. I only get in trouble when stupid bugs that affect my characters happen

Like, with druid you can charm beasts which is really powerful at the moment, for example, charm two spiders, they poison each other and then both die.

 

I've also played with cipher and did pretty well until bugs forced me to restart and with chanter I just made little miscalculation and died <_<

I don't really see why fighter would have the game being much harder, though I suppose I have to test higher difficulties and non magic classes

Also, I play all on trial of irons, so yeah, I've done pretty well considering how much I suck in Baldur's gate

 

But yeah, considering how predictable wild animals are, it might be good idea to lower their hp so they won't be as much a time sink. Then again, they don't take that long time anyway...

Edited August 20, 2014 by BrokenMask

[PrimeJunta]

You keep saying things I hope are true, but I doubt they are.

That's because I've figured out why it's hard. 

 

Why do you think it's hard? 

 

Why do you think the only/best way to fix it is by nerfing the enemies?

[Namutree]

 

But yeah, considering how predictable wild animals are, it might be good idea to lower their hp so they won't be as much a time sink. Then again, they don't take that long time anyway...

Play on normal or higher and you'll see they take a bit longer to beat than on easy.

[Karkarov]

Nah, it's only difficult because the combat doesn't work. Just wait, once they get the pathfinding, clusterhug bug, and Y U NO DO???? bug sorted plus maybe slow things down a bit, it'll be fine.

 

Another thing is that damage type matters a lot more here than in the IE games. That'll take a bit of effort to figure out, but once we're using the right tool for the job, those beasts will go down easy.

 

I got through the beetle mobs once with barely a scratch (on normal). Prob. couldn't have done as well with an IWD goblin mob.

 

One thing is obvious, though -- how you play matters, like, a lot. Choice of weapon, choice of buff(s), choice of debuff(s) especially. You can't just march up to a critter and expect to roflstomp it just because you minmaxed your character. That's a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

True.  Once you got the right tools some fights became a joke.  I made a thread I think got buried but when I gave my Cipher than sword Justice from the shop and he leads every fight with a crit... I have a pic of him two shotting a wood beetle and critting a stone beetle for 120+.

 

Too bad the crystal spider is near immune to slashing and laughed it off.

[PrimeJunta]

I have a theory that the game's difficulty is tied to the classes players chose. So for those posting I would be grateful if you tell us what class you chose when you say the game way easy or hard.

 

IMO not really. Four of the party members remain the same, and IMO only the chanter is OP enough to really turn things into a roflstomp. There are some imbalances there but not so much it'd radically change difficulty if you only switch out one guy.

 

Played with barb, fighter, monk, ranger, and chanter so far. Of these, the chanter definitely stood out (3 skeletons, repeatedly, srsly?), and the ranger with bear companion mmmaybe made things a bit easier (the bear's DT might have to be nerfed a bit). I had an easiest time with the ranger party actually, by switching everybody but Pooh Bear and BB Fighter to ranged weapons, but that's just because ranged combat works better than melee. Also with only two melee combatants neither got hit by the Y U NO DO???? bug much.

 

I wouldn't characterize it as easy exactly--but the difficulty comes with trying to get the toons to do things, which is hard because of bugs. Once they're ironed out, how could it not work much better?

[Namutree]

Why do you think the only/best way to fix it is by nerfing the enemies?

 

 

Nerfing the petty enemies exclusively is simply the only solution I can think of that solves the issue. It could be that there are many ways to solve this issue I simply haven't thought of. As for why I doubt that fixing the bugs will be enough:

 

I've already seen how dangerous the mobs are, and while the bugs are annoying; they are only a part of the problem.

 

Why I think nerfing petty enemies is the best way to go:

 

A) Making the trash mobs so strong that almost every petty battle requires micromanagement will almost certainly make the game much harder than BG2/IWD. Making them weaker makes them easier.

 

B) Keep in mind that we are mid level in this beta. Usually once mid level in an IE game the trash mobs are longer a signifigant threat. This is clearly not the case in the beta. This is a major departure in terms of game pace from the IE games. My solution would make poe play more like an IE game. 

 

C) Lowering their hp by 10% assures that the battles are faster. As such; players can end the battles before they can get tedious.