No experience from combat

[Shdy314]

It's taken quite some time for me to come out of the closet as a D&D combat simulator addict, but I feel free now.

This probably (because it shouldn't) doesn't mean anything to you but I want you to know I respect you for this. I hope you inspire others to also set themselves free.

[PrimeJunta]

I agree about the slow-food combat simulator aspect, by the way. It's a good analogy. I think P:E is shaping up nicely to capture that as a matter of fact.

 

I do notice reflexively looking up to see how much XP I got after finishing a fight and then going "Oh... right." I can't say yet how the XP system feels overall because bugs have been eating my quests and I haven't really managed to get any XP. It does have an effect on how I play the game though -- I don't really mind sneaking past one of the beetle groups for example, to get to the ogre cave. We'll see how that ends up feeling on balance. Right now it's still a bit unfamiliar, as I do get that lawnmowing impulse. We will see if it abates and how it feels then.

[PrimeJunta]

Sure, I can do it. BG2 was incredibly successful and was very well-received.

Ah, but was it successful and well-received becuase of the XP system, or despite it?

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

IE games xp system is a tried and tested failure.

 

You may think that other systems could be better, and you may be right - it's certainly a valid opinion anyway. But that statement is completely, objectively, laughably, indefensibly ridiculous.

 

Great. I cannot wait for you to effortlessly (because it is indefensible) prove me completely and laughably wrong. Objectively.

 

Objective proof: There are literally thousands upon thousands that still play these games years after they were released, and partly for those very xp reward systems that you call "tried and tested failure". Btw, the same systems are also still played by even more PnP players all over the world. BG2 has been voted the best CRPG of all time, by players, as well as by gaming journalists, time and time again.

 

You claiming anything but "tried and tested success" shows that you value your own subjective opinion so much that you mistake it for objectivity.

Edited August 21, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Shdy314]

Sure, I can do it. BG2 was incredibly successful and was very well-received.

.........Um that is it?

 

Here let me use your hilarious argument on you and see if that helps you.

 

Modern Warfare 2 is even more successful and even more well received. Therefore we should totally use the XP mechanics of MW2! This is objectively true guys! 

 

You are pointing out a correlation rather than causation. You are also using popularity to argue quality. These are major flaws.

 

Objective proof: There are literally thousands upon thousands that still play these games years after they were released, and partly for those very xp reward systems that you call "tried and tested failure". Btw, the same systems are also still played by even more PnP players all over the world. BG2 has been voted the best CRPG of all time, by ordinary people, as well as by gaming journalists, time and time again.

 

 

 

You claiming anything but "tried and tested success" shows that you value your own subjective opinion so much that you mistake it for objectivity.

 

Thats sad. You just copied Namutree. You're a plagiarist. Also wrong for the same reasons.

 

You provide literally zero evidence that the xp system is the reason for the IE games continued popularity. You simply claim it is because reasons.

As for the systems still being played in PnP uh no sorry 2nd edition 3rd and 3.5 are no longer top of the market and 4th never was and 5th will be shown to be as awful as ever when the DMG comes out. Newer systems have almost universally abandoned killxp even combat heavy games like WH40K Deathwatch! Seriously look up the Deathwatch in WH40K to realize how crazy that is!

Their dominance was solely due to brand awareness and being first to market not the horrendous quality of their systems which have been torn down mathematically about a thousand times on rpg boards over the decades. Even when I did play DnD we never gave out xp right after the combat based on what monsters we had killed because even as dumb teens that was too ridiculous even for us.

 

Its sad because kill xp and other mechanics are designed to activate the reward centers of the brain and so you could have made an actual objective argument that the xp system was crucial to the success because it was like candy or drugs for the players. But no you went with popularity. 

Edited August 21, 2014 by Shdy314

[Mayama]

In the end everything was quest gated in baldurs gate, the xp of random encounters was meaningless. The xp of killing bosses was basicaly part of the quest XP, the only way to progress was questing and the game never gave you the option to explore areas that are beyond your level range. So the kill-xp never gave you freedom or let you explore new areas.

 

tl/dr kill-xp in BG was basicaly just a gimmick because "d&d used it"

Edited August 21, 2014 by Mayama

[IndiraLightfoot]

I agree about the slow-food combat simulator aspect, by the way. It's a good analogy. I think P:E is shaping up nicely to capture that as a matter of fact.

 

I do notice reflexively looking up to see how much XP I got after finishing a fight and then going "Oh... right." I can't say yet how the XP system feels overall because bugs have been eating my quests and I haven't really managed to get any XP. It does have an effect on how I play the game though -- I don't really mind sneaking past one of the beetle groups for example, to get to the ogre cave. We'll see how that ends up feeling on balance. Right now it's still a bit unfamiliar, as I do get that lawnmowing impulse. We will see if it abates and how it feels then.

All those options will be tried out by my parties over and over. However, as things stand now, I have yet to get a single xp, and I have taken upon me to solve any quests that I come across. I'm 100% sure, they will fix the xp quite a bit from what we're seeing in the beta right now.

[IndiraLightfoot]

In the end everything was quest gated in baldurs gate, the xp of random encounters was meaningless. The xp of killing bosses was basicaly part of the quest XP, the only way to progress was questing and the game never gave you the option to explore areas that are beyond your level range. So the kill-xp never gave you freedom or let you explore you new areas.

Not true. Except for the town Baldur's Gate, which was indeed literally locked, exploration was very free (much more than the rather linear BG2) you could easily step into places where you were seriously outgunned. It didn't have any level scaling. Already in my first playthrough, I got in a fight with Ankhegs, and the entire party was almost wiped out. I loved it!

Edited August 21, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Waywocket]

 

IE games xp system is a tried and tested failure.

 

You may think that other systems could be better, and you may be right - it's certainly a valid opinion anyway. But that statement is completely, objectively, laughably, indefensibly ridiculous.

 

Great. I cannot wait for you to effortlessly (because it is indefensible) prove me completely and laughably wrong. Objectively.

 

It's clear you have no intention but posting inflammatory nonsense just to offend people, I probably shouldn't even bother feeding the troll (it should go without saying, I've added you to my ignore list), but I'd invite you to take a look lists like these:

http://www.gog.com/mix/must_play_classic_crpgs

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/rpg-codexs-top-50-crpgs-results-and-reviews.89680/

http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=727

http://uk.ign.com/top/rpgs

Or these, where you will then need to ignore the many games that are not RPGs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_games

 

And count up the number of those games that award XP for killing creatures.

Now, are you seriously trying to claim that all of those games are failures?

[Mayama]

 

In the end everything was quest gated in baldurs gate, the xp of random encounters was meaningless. The xp of killing bosses was basicaly part of the quest XP, the only way to progress was questing and the game never gave you the option to explore areas that are beyond your level range. So the kill-xp never gave you freedom or let you explore you new areas.

Not true. Except for the town Baldur's Gate, which was indeed literally locked, exploration was very free (much more than the rather linear BG2) you could easily step into places where you were seriously outgunned. It didn't have any level scaling. Already in my first playthrough, I got in a fight with Ankhegs, and the entire party was almost wiped out. I loved it!

 

 

Theirs not a single enemy in baldurs gate that you cant take out at the time you encounter them. More levels only gave you a saftey net. Ankhegs are a good example, even a lvl1 character can kill them solo, just dont go into melee and dodge the projectiles. They are not targeted so you can move out of the way.

[PrimeJunta]

@Waywocket: a failed system does not necessarily make for a failed game. Most cRPG's by far have kill XP largely because "that's the way it's always been done." Many of them have enormous problems with their systems, often due to adopting features intended for PnP directly. For example, threshold skill checks. In a PnP game, you only get to roll once to see if your character can open a lock. In a cRPG, you can save and reload until he makes that roll. (Which is prob. one reason Take 20 was introduced.)

In many cases you can get great games despite the slapdash systems underneath. The IE games had combat that felt great, beautiful and varied backgrounds, and lots of stuff to do. The fact that they also had perverse incentives, massive exploits, encounters designed to be beaten through trial-and-error reloading, and so on may have detracted from the experience, but did not turn the games into failures.

And in some cases, the generally great experiences we've had with these games have made us like the flaws. There are people who actually want exploitable systems, like the ability to rest-spam, open locks by save-scumming, or farm XP, despite all those being unintentional side-effects of the original (flawed) designs.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Mayama: Yeah, when I had played that game for the third time, I had a pretty great grasp of everything, and soon enough, I even soloed it for the challenge. However, in your very first playthrough, and at a time when Internet didn't flaunt cheat sites everywhere, you couldn't, unless you were very lucky, wring those scimitars from Drizzt, or find that hidden Ring of Wizardry pretty near Candlekeep, etc. That first time, I played it just the way I felt like - and my weird loops over the maps are still to this day legendary.

[Stun]

 

Great. I cannot wait for you to effortlessly (because it is indefensible) prove me completely and laughably wrong. Objectively.

Sure, I can do it. BG2 was incredibly successful and was very well-received.

 

And... so was BG1, and PS:T, and Icewind Dale. There isn't a single game that the PoE kickstarter namedropped that didn't have Kill XP. They all did.

 

This isn't about making perceived "improvements". This is about tradition and "coming home again" (Sawyer's words, not mine). How would you guys have liked it if Josh had decided that the Isometric top down view that defined the infinity engine games had to be replaced by a 3d first person perspective? I find the scrapping of combat XP in an infinity engine game successor just as jarring.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Stun

[Shdy314]

 

 

IE games xp system is a tried and tested failure.

 

You may think that other systems could be better, and you may be right - it's certainly a valid opinion anyway. But that statement is completely, objectively, laughably, indefensibly ridiculous.

 

Great. I cannot wait for you to effortlessly (because it is indefensible) prove me completely and laughably wrong. Objectively.

 

It's clear you have no intention but posting inflammatory nonsense just to offend people, I probably shouldn't even bother feeding the troll (it should go without saying, I've added you to my ignore list), but I'd invite you to take a look lists like these:

http://www.gog.com/mix/must_play_classic_crpgs

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/rpg-codexs-top-50-crpgs-results-and-reviews.89680/

http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=727

http://uk.ign.com/top/rpgs

Or these, where you will then need to ignore the many games that are not RPGs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_games

 

And count up the number of those games that award XP for killing creatures.

Now, are you seriously trying to claim that all of those games are failures?

 

See this just proves how bankrupt the kill xp camps arguments are. 3 people formed an argument at the same time. All 3 said "I liked BG and it had kill xp so kill xp is good!" And they honestly believe this is an objective and incontrovertible proof! Hilarious. 

 

Look at Waywrocket! I am sure he honestly believes I said BG was a failure and that he has gotten into an argument to prove BG is popular. Which is of course sadly mistaken.

Of course you think I am a troll Waywrocket. I am sure what you have imagined me saying is very trollish.

[Shdy314]

This isn't about making perceived "improvements". This is about tradition. How would you guys have liked it if Josh had decided that the Isometric top down view that defined the infinity engine games had to be replaced by 3d first person view?

 

I find the scrapping of combat XP in an infinity engine game successor just as jarring.

I might feel a bit misled since that was an actual promise made during the kickstarter which killxp was not and these arguments only show that not everyone felt the killxp was as intrinisic to the experience as the freaking viewpoint which is used to define entire genres (FPS, TPS). 

But I would move on once I realized I could not change Obsidian's mind.

You're argument is disingenous. All those games used a DnD ruleset as well but we knew that wasn't going to be happening. They didn't ask if we miseed all those old isometric rpgs WITH KILL XP.

 

I know it is about tradition. It has always been about tradition. That is what is so annoying about all these "arguments" people keep making where they struggle to assign logic to their emotions. I know games based on DnD had kill xp. PoE is not based on DnD rules so it does not. I honestly hope you still end up enjoying it or find a nice killxp mod very soon after release.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Shdy314

[PrimeJunta]

This isn't about making perceived "improvements". This is about tradition. How would you guys have liked it if Josh had decided that the Isometric top down view that defined the infinity engine games had to be replaced by a 3d first person perspective? I find the scrapping of combat XP in an infinity engine game successor just as jarring.

 

This is the best argument for combat XP that you've made so far, Stun, as far as I'm concerned.

 

(I don't find it as jarring, but that, of course, is subjective, and I can hardly argue with how you experience it.)

[Stun]

IE games xp system is a tried and tested failure.

LOL this is such a vague, meaningless statement.

[Namutree]

See this just proves how bankrupt the kill xp camps arguments are. 3 people formed an argument at the same time. All 3 said "I liked BG and it had kill xp so kill xp is good!" And they honestly believe this is an objective and incontrovertible proof! Hilarious. 

 

 

Look at Waywrocket! I am sure he honestly believes I said BG was a failure and that he has gotten into an argument to prove BG is popular. Which is of course sadly mistaken.

Of course you think I am a troll Waywrocket. I am sure what you have imagined me saying is very trollish.

 

If kill xp is in the IE games and they were popular, do you know what that means? It means the mechanic wasn't a failure.

[Mayama]

 

See this just proves how bankrupt the kill xp camps arguments are. 3 people formed an argument at the same time. All 3 said "I liked BG and it had kill xp so kill xp is good!" And they honestly believe this is an objective and incontrovertible proof! Hilarious. 

 

 

Look at Waywrocket! I am sure he honestly believes I said BG was a failure and that he has gotten into an argument to prove BG is popular. Which is of course sadly mistaken.

Of course you think I am a troll Waywrocket. I am sure what you have imagined me saying is very trollish.

 

If kill xp is in the IE games and they were popular, do you know what that means? It means the mechanic wasn't a failure.

 

 

It doesnt say anything because it does not tell us if it added to the success or not or if people even cared. I bought all BG games when they were released and i didnt waste a single second thinking "man those games give kill xp, I so gonna buy them"

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

 

 I bought all BG games when they were released and i didnt waste a single second thinking "man those games give kill xp, I so gonna buy them"

 

But you most likely wouldn't have bought them when they came out, if some text on its cover said: "No experience points will be rewarded for killing opponents, picking treasure chest locks and disarming traps. Only major quests count." 

[Stun]

They didn't ask if we miseed all those old isometric rpgs WITH KILL XP.

Since killing things was the primary way to advance in levels in the vast majority of those RPGs, they didn't have to. It was a given. Just like they didn't ask if we missed having mages in our party. Or if we missed doing quests for XP. Or if we missed real time with pause. Or if we missed item descriptions on magic items. Edited August 21, 2014 by Stun

[Rillifane]

Wouldn't it be better by rewarding players using diplomatic or stealthy ways to solve a quest with extra xp instead of removing combat xp completely? Beating enemies to gain the loot and xp has been part of the fun of traditional RPG. This change has gone too far I think.   To be honest, I am even a little bit regretful backing this project if they are taking out my pleasures of earning killing xp.

[Namutree]

 

It doesnt say anything because it does not tell us if it added to the success or not or if people even cared. I bought all BG games when they were released and i didnt waste a single second thinking "man those games give kill xp, I so gonna buy them"

 

I never said they were a major draw. I said they weren't a failure. They clearly didn't ruin the IE game's success; thus they aren't a failed mechanic.

[Mayama]

 

 

 

 

 I bought all BG games when they were released and i didnt waste a single second thinking "man those games give kill xp, I so gonna buy them"

 

But you most likely wouldn't have bought them when they came out, if some text on its cover said: "No experience points will be rewarded for killing opponents, picking treasure chest locks and disarming traps. Only major quests count." 

 

If something like eye of beholder or might and magic would not have kill xp it would feel weird becaues those games are basicaly hack-fests where combat is everything. BG, for me at least, was more about atmosphere, mood and story.

[Mrakvampire]

XP for kills is classic old-school mechanic of all RPGs. 

No XP for kill = this game has nothing to do with old-school RPGs and is worse that Dragon Age 2