[Possible Spoilers] Pillars of Eternity will be livestreamed at Gamescom

[PrimeJunta]

 

And I believe that no kill XP makes the above kinds of situations better. If you did have kill XP, then scouting and avoiding contact in the wilderness would cause you to lose out on XP, which would make it an objectively weaker strategy, which would make for less variety.

 

Wouldn't the solution, then, be to reward players with an equal amount of XP for engaging in combat or avoiding it? Why totally eliminate the rewards for one of the options?

 

That would work too. It would just be seriously more fiddly for the developers to balance, plus if they wanted to avoid incentivizing behavior like sneaking past fo the sneak XP and then returning to kill them for the kill XP, they'd have to deal with those situations as well. I'm confident the current solution will work just about as well with much less work, if they just design the maps intelligently -- that sometimes it's possible to avoid combat, sometimes not, and sometimes it's only possible under certain circumstances.

 

The only area I'm mildly concerned about is the megadungeon; whacking things for XP is fairly central to dungeoneering. Curious to see how they address that.

[Tartantyco]

Again, then the solution is to reward players equally for violently dealing with X, or non-violently dealing with X. It is NOT to eliminate all rewards for engaging in the violent option, because that just shifts the problem to the other side... it makes the non-violent option the "always/obvious" solution. 

 

No, that is not the solution. As I just explained, you can't practically or cost-effectively create a fair XP system that does that. How do you create a stealth XP reward system? XP for going into stealth mode? XP for the duration of your stealth? XP for being stealthed near enemies? XP for being stealthed and moving near enemies? All of that is just complete XP abuse central. What about casting spells? XP abuse again.

 

It's easy for you to utter the above sentence, but unless you're actually going to provide the developers with a viable XP reward system you simply can't use it as an argument.

 

 

 

The only area I'm mildly concerned about is the megadungeon; whacking things for XP is fairly central to dungeoneering. Curious to see how they address that.

 

 

 

I'd imagine there would be completion XP for dungeons, as well as items. They'd probably often be part of quests as well.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Tartantyco

[PrimeJunta]

Yes, systemic XP is inherently problematic because it tends to create farming opportunities, which tend to upset game balance. Avoiding or overcoming these problems is usually possible but it's a lot of work. They can be avoided altogether by hand-placing all XP.

[Stun]

 

Again, then the solution is to reward players equally for violently dealing with X, or non-violently dealing with X. It is NOT to eliminate all rewards for engaging in the violent option, because that just shifts the problem to the other side... it makes the non-violent option the "always/obvious" solution.

 

No, that is not the solution. As I just explained, you can't practically or cost-effectively create a fair XP system that does that. How do you create a stealth XP reward system? XP for going into stealth mode? XP for the duration of your stealth? XP for being stealthed near enemies? XP for being stealthed and moving near enemies? All of that is just complete XP abuse central. What about casting spells? XP abuse again.

 

And this means what? There should be No XP rewards at all?

 

 

The only area I'm mildly concerned about is the megadungeon; whacking things for XP is fairly central to dungeoneering. Curious to see how they address that.

 I'd imagine there would be completion XP for dungeons, as well as items.

 

The Megadungeon is 15 levels in size. Withholding XP rewards until its completion may be one of the most moronic ideas I've ever heard. Edited August 16, 2014 by Stun

[Stun]

Yes, systemic XP is inherently problematic because it tends to create farming opportunities, which tend to upset game balance. Avoiding or overcoming these problems is usually possible but it's a lot of work. They can be avoided altogether by hand-placing all XP.

You know what the real joke here is? No one here even remotely suggested a systematic XP reward system. Tartantyco literally decided to Soapbox against it...in a vacuum. Edited August 16, 2014 by Stun

[BrokenMask]

Maybe there is exp for each level completed in mega dungeon?

 

Anyway, to add on my long post on last page about diplomacy directed to Stun, I have really big problem with focusing on skills that I know open speech options, bonus dialog or alternate ways of completing quests than combat. So for example, it was really important for me to beat ZAX in chess and get extra info with high science and such even though those are only minor things  <_< So in case of fallout its really bad since there are lot of non combat skills, but in case of rpgs with less non combat skills I don't tend to have as hard time in first playthrough. Still, I wouldn't have it any other way, even though default characters tend to be far better balanced than mine, I love having lots of non combat options.

Edited August 16, 2014 by BrokenMask

[Stun]

Maybe there is exp for each level completed in mega dungeon?

Alright. How exactly will the game determine that you've completed the level? (you found the stairs to the next level? You've murdered all enemies in the level? you solved all the level's puzzles? you've killed the level's assigned boss?)

[BrokenMask]

I'd assume "You find the entrance to next level"

 

Though for all I know, the dungeon is so huge that each level has multiple quests and objectives there. So maybe you only get exp for completing those objectives.

[Tartantyco]

 

 

Again, then the solution is to reward players equally for violently dealing with X, or non-violently dealing with X. It is NOT to eliminate all rewards for engaging in the violent option, because that just shifts the problem to the other side... it makes the non-violent option the "always/obvious" solution.

 

No, that is not the solution. As I just explained, you can't practically or cost-effectively create a fair XP system that does that. How do you create a stealth XP reward system? XP for going into stealth mode? XP for the duration of your stealth? XP for being stealthed near enemies? XP for being stealthed and moving near enemies? All of that is just complete XP abuse central. What about casting spells? XP abuse again.

 

And this means what? There should be No XP rewards at all?

 

 

 

The only area I'm mildly concerned about is the megadungeon; whacking things for XP is fairly central to dungeoneering. Curious to see how they address that.

 I'd imagine there would be completion XP for dungeons, as well as items.

 

The Megadungeon is 15 levels in size. Withholding XP rewards until its completion may be one of the most moronic ideas I've ever heard.

 

 

There are XP rewards already. You get XP for completing objectives. And you can have XP rewards for each level, for instance. You know, if you spent even five seconds thinking about it you could have come up with that instead of insulting people for your own lack of creativity.

 

 

Yes, systemic XP is inherently problematic because it tends to create farming opportunities, which tend to upset game balance. Avoiding or overcoming these problems is usually possible but it's a lot of work. They can be avoided altogether by hand-placing all XP.

You know what the real joke here is? No one here even remotely suggested a systematic XP reward system. Tartantyco literally decided to Soapbox against it...in a vacuum.

 

 

No, you have suggested that people get XP for their professions. Maybe you should remember your own arguments? Whether you know it or not, a systematic XP system is exactly what you've been arguing for. You have such insane tunnel vision in this discussion that you can't even extrapolate the entirety of your own arguments. If you believe fighters should get XP for doing their "profession", and that anything else is "illogical", then you must also believe all classes should receive XP for their "professions". That means XP-for-stealth, XP-for-spells, etc.

 

Try to be somewhat consistent in your argument, and try to take off your blinders and spend at least a few brain cells actually considering the effects of the various XP systems.

[PrimeJunta]

 

Yes, systemic XP is inherently problematic because it tends to create farming opportunities, which tend to upset game balance. Avoiding or overcoming these problems is usually possible but it's a lot of work. They can be avoided altogether by hand-placing all XP.

You know what the real joke here is? No one here even remotely suggested a systematic XP reward system. Tartantyco literally decided to Soapbox against it...in a vacuum.

 

Kill XP is systemic XP.

[Quetzalcoatl]

I can imagine the mega-dungeon granting XP for detecting and opening secret doors, finding the key to the next level, etc. 

[Caerdon]

 

Maybe there is exp for each level completed in mega dungeon?

Alright. How exactly will the game determine that you've completed the level? (you found the stairs to the next level? You've murdered all enemies in the level? you solved all the level's puzzles? you've killed the level's assigned boss?)

 

 

You're not even trying to understand, are you? These concepts aren't that difficult.

 

You could get XP for unlocking the next level, completing a puzzle or completing quests within the dungeon - one of which could be dealing with the "level's assigned boss", whether by killing it or getting rid of it in some other manner, like imprisoning or crippling it in some way.

[Stun]

There are XP rewards already. You get XP for completing objectives.

Maybe I need to write this in crayon.

 

In a system where XP rewards are handed out only for completing objectives, you're NOT solving the "problem" of players always choosing combat as a solution. You're simply shifting the problem to the other side: you're making it so that players will always choose to solve problems without combat. Since combat incurs costs that non-combat doesn't.

[Stun]

I can imagine the mega-dungeon granting XP for detecting and opening secret doors, finding the key to the next level, etc.

That would be systemic. Edited August 16, 2014 by Stun

[PrimeJunta]

 

I can imagine the mega-dungeon granting XP for detecting and opening secret doors, finding the key to the next level, etc.

That would be systemic.

 

Not if the rewards were hand-placed.

 

Systemic reward = reward that is automatically granted based on a general rule.  "Kill monster of type T = X XP." "Pick lock of difficulty D = Y XP."

Hand-placed reward = reward that is, uh, hand-placed.

 

I think mixing hand-placed and systemic XP is inherently problematic. It becomes hard to balance and tends to lead to perverse incentives. Rewards should be placed to incentivize the kind of behavior the game designers think is fun. Systemic XP works great for pure dungeon crawls. Hand-placed XP works better for narrative- or quest-based games.

[Valorian]

 

 

I can imagine the mega-dungeon granting XP for detecting and opening secret doors, finding the key to the next level, etc.

That would be systemic.

 

Not if the rewards were hand-placed.

 

 

 

  Bugs and other creatures can't assign an XP value to themselves. They're also placed by hand (and so is their eventual xp value).

[Sonntam]

 

 

 

I can imagine the mega-dungeon granting XP for detecting and opening secret doors, finding the key to the next level, etc.

That would be systemic.

 

Not if the rewards were hand-placed.

 

 

 

  Bugs and other creatures can't assign an XP value to themselves. They're also placed by hand (and so is their eventual xp value).

 

It would be hand-placed if the developers took every bug in the world and assigned experience to them manually. But if a monster type is created and along with its attributes, a certain experience value is assigned to it and then the monsters are just put all around the world, then it's systematic experience.

[Stun]

 

You know what the real joke here is? No one here even remotely suggested a systematic XP reward system. Tartantyco literally decided to Soapbox against it...in a vacuum.

 

No, you have suggested that people get XP for their professions. Maybe you should remember your own arguments? Whether you know it or not, a systematic XP system is exactly what you've been arguing for.

 

WTF! Characters getting rewarded for engaging in their professions is called.... Role Playing. Edited August 16, 2014 by Stun

[Valorian]

 

 

 

 

I can imagine the mega-dungeon granting XP for detecting and opening secret doors, finding the key to the next level, etc.

That would be systemic.

 

Not if the rewards were hand-placed.

 

 

 

  Bugs and other creatures can't assign an XP value to themselves. They're also placed by hand (and so is their eventual xp value).

 

It would be hand-placed if the developers took every bug in the world and assigned experience to them manually. But if a monster type is created and along with its attributes, a certain experience value is assigned to it and then the monsters are just put all around the world, then it's systematic experience.

 

 

There's a finite number of enemies in the game. Designing them and placing them in interesting encounters is time consuming and challenging; carefully assigning individual XP values is the tiniest problem.

 

If two or more levels in the mega dungeon grant the same XP upon reaching it means it's not hand-placed anymore and it becomes systemic dungeon XP?

[Silent Winter]

If two or more levels in the mega dungeon grant the same XP upon reaching it means it's not hand-placed anymore and it becomes systemic dungeon XP?

If all the levels were like that, then you could say that (I wouldn't say that just for 2 levels out of 15 though)

But I imagine it's not going to be 1000xp per level but rather 200xp for solving this puzzle, 100xp for that puzzle, 300xp for dealing with the ROUS problem, 100xp for getting the ogre to eat the ROUSs and 200xp for going through the exit plus some optional xp for cleaning the lavatory in the corner.

In other words, not something that repeats or gets 'farmed'.

 

Anywho, whether we're calling it systemic or not isn't the issue in the thread - it's whether getting kill-xp is needed.

Combat is fun anyway, most of the time.

If you could actually find a way to reward stealthing past the enemies (which as pointed out is tricky to implement) and only have it done once and still reward killing the enemies just once but not receive both xp-rewards then that'd work too (but be more effort than the current system for no gain).  Right now you're getting to the XP at the back of the cave - to do so you must deal with the beetles/spiders or wotnot.

[Tartantyco]

 

 

You know what the real joke here is? No one here even remotely suggested a systematic XP reward system. Tartantyco literally decided to Soapbox against it...in a vacuum.

 

No, you have suggested that people get XP for their professions. Maybe you should remember your own arguments? Whether you know it or not, a systematic XP system is exactly what you've been arguing for.

 

WTF! Characters getting rewarded for engaging in their professions is called.... Role Playing.

 

 

What is it with you and just making up definitions? That is not roleplaying. But that is completely beside the point I was making. How about instead of constantly misquoting me, you could try to counter my actual arguments?

[Valorian]

 

If two or more levels in the mega dungeon grant the same XP upon reaching it means it's not hand-placed anymore and it becomes systemic dungeon XP?

If all the levels were like that, then you could say that (I wouldn't say that just for 2 levels out of 15 though)

But I imagine it's not going to be 1000xp per level but rather 200xp for solving this puzzle, 100xp for that puzzle, 

 

 

The number of levels (beyond 2) that reward the same xp upon reaching is irrelevant for the point I was making. It is also just a tangent that gets mentioned often, right.

 

There is no reason why solving a puzzle should grant xp and killing an enemy shouldn't.

[Stun]

What is it with you and just making up definitions? That is not roleplaying. But that is completely beside the point I was making. How about instead of constantly misquoting me, you could try to counter my actual arguments?

Ok.

 

Lets see...

 

There simply isn't any good way of implementing XP rewards for stealthing around enemies and stuff like that,

You're right.

 

Getting XP for, say, successfully stealthing past an encounter... No no. That won't work. Because...um... well, because you said so, of course.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Stun

[Tartantyco]

And once again you're answering questions nobody asked, Stun.

[Karkarov]

 

Maybe there is exp for each level completed in mega dungeon?

Alright. How exactly will the game determine that you've completed the level? (you found the stairs to the next level? You've murdered all enemies in the level? you solved all the level's puzzles? you've killed the level's assigned boss?)

 

All of the above.  One level may have a puzzle you have to solve to get the stairs down to open so solving the puzzle awards exp.  Another may have the path to the next level guarded by a boss so defeating the boss through whatever means (bribery, talking them down, killing them) gets the EXP, one may be a trap filled hell hole so on that one simply getting to the stairs may reward the exp.  Etc etc etc.

 

Objective EXP doesn't mean you always have to reward exp the same way every time and no one ever said the mega dungeon was 15 floors of random mook fighting on every level.