Confusions over Illegal Immigrants vs Refugees

[Hurlshort]

US borders have been open or or laxly controlled for most of our history, so your argument has no historical precedent.  

 

I do agree with you about the welfare system, that it is in desperate need of an overhaul.  But do you really think that if we get rid of welfare that all those citizens are going to flock to unskilled labor jobs?  Considering how many already turn to crime, I doubt the outcome would be so rosy.  Then you have the economic implications of this new labor force.  If all the companies making use of undocumented workers suddenly had to pay minimum wage across the board, we'd have a huge crisis on our hands.  

 

Personally I'd rather us focus on creating a decent trade school system in this country that allows American citizens to get the training needed to compete for decent jobs.  That would stimulate growth instead of stagnation.  You should be expected to show progress towards a skillset to receive full welfare benefits.  We have the right idea with keeping people in High School until 18, but the constant cuts to vocational training has hindered growth tremendously.

 

 

 

 Not to mention once they're legal, they'd be eligible for the very same welfare benefits, or are you going to let their poor hungry children starve because the mother with 20 children can't find work in our cruel capitalist system? 

 

I'm not sure where I said to make undocumented workers legal citizens.  Far from it, I want the US and Mexico to work with each other so that we can tap the labor force our economy relies on.  Many undocumented workers split time between the two countries, again they come here for the opportunities that are available.  They have communities and families in both countries, and so the meager salaries that they are afforded help sustain a larger group.  It is incredibly communal.  

 

Here is another interesting idea about our border, if you are interested.

[Gromnir]

biggest single obstacle to meaningful welfare reform:  children represent near 3/4 o' welfare support.  find a way to meaningful alter many welfare programs without hurting children is a difficult task. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Wrath of Dagon]

US borders have been open or or laxly controlled for most of our history, so your argument has no historical precedent.

You agree that criminal migrants should be stopped, how will that be achieved without border control?  

 

I do agree with you about the welfare system, that it is in desperate need of an overhaul.  But do you really think that if we get rid of welfare that all those citizens are going to flock to unskilled labor jobs?  Considering how many already turn to crime, I doubt the outcome would be so rosy.  Then you have the economic implications of this new labor force.  If all the companies making use of undocumented workers suddenly had to pay minimum wage across the board, we'd have a huge crisis on our hands.

They turn to crime because of the culture bred by dependency, and because of hopelessness. Having access to entry level jobs would be a huge influence for the better. As far as everyone having to pay minimum wage, prices would increase a bit, but your argument is for the well-to-do to benefit from exploitation. Securing the border wouldn't magically get rid of all illegal labor immediately, but it would start a restoration of the rule of law in this country.  

 

Personally I'd rather us focus on creating a decent trade school system in this country that allows American citizens to get the training needed to compete for decent jobs.  That would stimulate growth instead of stagnation.  You should be expected to show progress towards a skillset to receive full welfare benefits.  We have the right idea with keeping people in High School until 18, but the constant cuts to vocational training has hindered growth tremendously.

Not arguing against that, but training for jobs you can't compete for doesn't make much sense either.

 

 

 

 Not to mention once they're legal, they'd be eligible for the very same welfare benefits, or are you going to let their poor hungry children starve because the mother with 20 children can't find work in our cruel capitalist system? 

 

I'm not sure where I said to make undocumented workers legal citizens.  Far from it, I want the US and Mexico to work with each other so that we can tap the labor force our economy relies on.  Many undocumented workers split time between the two countries, again they come here for the opportunities that are available.  They have communities and families in both countries, and so the meager salaries that they are afforded help sustain a larger group.  It is incredibly communal.  

 

Here is another interesting idea about our border, if you are interested.

 

I guess an argument can be made US and Mexico should de facto become one country, but I don't see the benefit. Anyway something like that should be democratically decided, not be done by fiat. We don't have a labor shortage in this country, certainly not an unskilled labor shortage, so importing more labor from abroad doesn't make sense. If they did work here they'd have to be given the same wages and working conditions as Americans, otherwise you're just exploiting people. Also Mexico isn't the only source of illegal immigration by far.

 

Btw, going back to your farm worker argument, Cesar Chavez organized the (legal) farm workers for better pay and benefits, and that was back when Americans were working the fields. Of course all those gains have now been destroyed by the overwhelming employment of illegals.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Wrath of Dagon

[ShadySands]

I can tell you all these resort mountain towns around here bring in workers from abroad because very few locals are willing to do the work and these aren't even very labor intensive jobs and pay above minimum wage. It's seasonal work mostly but a decent amount workers overstay their visas but most of these big name hotels don't care because nobody else is going to do the work.

 

These workers are mostly South American and eastern European.

 

They do pay taxes though so there's that

[BruceVC]

 

However that will not happen. The current administrations has instructed ICE, INS, Border Patrol, etc. specifically NOT to enforce the law and send these folks back because they are thinking amnesty and millions of new welfare dependent democrat voters. It is not about the good of the country or even the well being of the immigrants. It is all about, and only about winning future elections, turning red states blue, and building a new permanent underclass to be exploited to keep them in power.

 

Am I the only one who finds this type of perspective hard to believe?

 

The lack of effectiveness to implement proper immigration reform or control  is really about the Democrats staying in power?

[Walsingham]

Thought I'd dip in.

 

Israel can't secure the Gaza border. You aren't going to secure the land borders of the USA.

[Erez]

Most world disputes can be summed with Paragons vs Renegades.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Erez

[Erez]

 

Am I the only one who finds this type of perspective hard to believe?

 

The lack of effectiveness to implement proper immigration reform or control  is really about the Democrats staying in power?

 

 

While it may not be their initial thought when choosing one way or the other, do you want to tell me those illegal immigrants once given american passports will vote for the republicans?

[Erez]

biggest single obstacle to meaningful welfare reform:  children represent near 3/4 o' welfare support.  find a way to meaningful alter many welfare programs without hurting children is a difficult task. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

This is why i always supported ensuring children safety by giving more money to schools, hospitals and social programs and not to their parents.  

[BruceVC]

 

 

Am I the only one who finds this type of perspective hard to believe?

 

The lack of effectiveness to implement proper immigration reform or control  is really about the Democrats staying in power?

 

 

While it may not be their initial thought when choosing one way or the other, do you want to tell me those illegal immigrants once given american passports will vote for the republicans?

 

 

Well I wouldn't expect anyone to vote for the Republicans so I'm not the right person to ask that question to

[Guard Dog]

 

 

However that will not happen. The current administrations has instructed ICE, INS, Border Patrol, etc. specifically NOT to enforce the law and send these folks back because they are thinking amnesty and millions of new welfare dependent democrat voters. It is not about the good of the country or even the well being of the immigrants. It is all about, and only about winning future elections, turning red states blue, and building a new permanent underclass to be exploited to keep them in power.

 

Am I the only one who finds this type of perspective hard to believe?

 

The lack of effectiveness to implement proper immigration reform or control  is really about the Democrats staying in power?

 

Ok lets look at it this way. Suppose the right agrees to complete and total amnesty with full residency rights for all illegals living and working in the US right now with the following caveat: They will not be allowed to vote. Do you think the left would support that?  No, because that is all this is about. The rest is just window dressing.

[Guard Dog]

 

 

 

Am I the only one who finds this type of perspective hard to believe?

 

The lack of effectiveness to implement proper immigration reform or control  is really about the Democrats staying in power?

 

 

While it may not be their initial thought when choosing one way or the other, do you want to tell me those illegal immigrants once given american passports will vote for the republicans?

 

 

Well I wouldn't expect anyone to vote for the Republicans so I'm not the right person to ask that question to

 

Yeah because being free from heavy handed authoritarian government is no way to live right? Don't get me wrong, I dislike Republicans but I absolutely HATE democrats. Not all of them individually but many of them and certainly the philosophy that unifies them. Namely that the rights of the individual are subordinate to the state. The people are ward of the government rather than free individuals, etc

Edited August 11, 2014 by Guard Dog

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

However that will not happen. The current administrations has instructed ICE, INS, Border Patrol, etc. specifically NOT to enforce the law and send these folks back because they are thinking amnesty and millions of new welfare dependent democrat voters. It is not about the good of the country or even the well being of the immigrants. It is all about, and only about winning future elections, turning red states blue, and building a new permanent underclass to be exploited to keep them in power.

 

Am I the only one who finds this type of perspective hard to believe?

 

The lack of effectiveness to implement proper immigration reform or control  is really about the Democrats staying in power?

 

Ok lets look at it this way. Suppose the right agrees to complete and total amnesty with full residency rights for all illegals living and working in the US right now with the following caveat: They will not be allowed to vote. Do you think the left would support that?  No, because that is all this is about. The rest is just window dressing.

 

 

Good question, and I don't know the answer to that? I suppose the argument would be if you say someone is a citizen in your country then its a basic  human right to be allowed to vote in any Democracy. So the argument from any Democrat would be based around that logic?

[Guard Dog]

 

 

 

 

However that will not happen. The current administrations has instructed ICE, INS, Border Patrol, etc. specifically NOT to enforce the law and send these folks back because they are thinking amnesty and millions of new welfare dependent democrat voters. It is not about the good of the country or even the well being of the immigrants. It is all about, and only about winning future elections, turning red states blue, and building a new permanent underclass to be exploited to keep them in power.

 

Am I the only one who finds this type of perspective hard to believe?

 

The lack of effectiveness to implement proper immigration reform or control  is really about the Democrats staying in power?

 

Ok lets look at it this way. Suppose the right agrees to complete and total amnesty with full residency rights for all illegals living and working in the US right now with the following caveat: They will not be allowed to vote. Do you think the left would support that?  No, because that is all this is about. The rest is just window dressing.

 

 

Good question, and I don't know the answer to that? I suppose the argument would be if you say someone is a citizen in your country then its a basic  human right to be allowed to vote in any Democracy. So the argument from any Democrat would be based around that logic?

 

No, remember all politics is self serving. Altruism is never found in the actions of the body politic.  The only interest government has is self perpetuation.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I can tell you all these resort mountain towns around here bring in workers from abroad because very few locals are willing to do the work and these aren't even very labor intensive jobs and pay above minimum wage. It's seasonal work mostly but a decent amount workers overstay their visas but most of these big name hotels don't care because nobody else is going to do the work.

 

These workers are mostly South American and eastern European.

 

They do pay taxes though so there's that

All that shows is that foreign workers work cheaper, not that there are no Americans willing to take those jobs. It's the same situation with H1B visas.

 

 

 

However that will not happen. The current administrations has instructed ICE, INS, Border Patrol, etc. specifically NOT to enforce the law and send these folks back because they are thinking amnesty and millions of new welfare dependent democrat voters. It is not about the good of the country or even the well being of the immigrants. It is all about, and only about winning future elections, turning red states blue, and building a new permanent underclass to be exploited to keep them in power.

 

Am I the only one who finds this type of perspective hard to believe?

 

The lack of effectiveness to implement proper immigration reform or control  is really about the Democrats staying in power?

 

It's been that way for decades. It's working too, even Texas will turn Democrat within 10 years, Republican party is dead even if they don't know it yet.

 

 

Thought I'd dip in.

 

Israel can't secure the Gaza border. You aren't going to secure the land borders of the USA.

Gaza border is very secure, true Hamas managed to build a bunch of tunnels in secret, but they've now been destroyed. Attacks across that border are very rare. Also our border only has to be about 90% secure, not 100% secure like Israel's.

 

Edit: "Osama Bin Laden" crosses US border : http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2014/08/11/watch-osama-bin-laden-illegally-crosses-the-texas-mexico-border/

Edited August 12, 2014 by Wrath of Dagon

[ShadySands]

All that shows is that foreign workers work cheaper, not that there are no Americans willing to take those jobs. It's the same situation with H1B visas.

Not exactly, as I said these pay above minimum wage and typically more than the same jobs down here in Denver

[BruceVC]

 

I can tell you all these resort mountain towns around here bring in workers from abroad because very few locals are willing to do the work and these aren't even very labor intensive jobs and pay above minimum wage. It's seasonal work mostly but a decent amount workers overstay their visas but most of these big name hotels don't care because nobody else is going to do the work.

 

These workers are mostly South American and eastern European.

 

They do pay taxes though so there's that

All that shows is that foreign workers work cheaper, not that there are no Americans willing to take those jobs. It's the same situation with H1B visas.

 

 

 

However that will not happen. The current administrations has instructed ICE, INS, Border Patrol, etc. specifically NOT to enforce the law and send these folks back because they are thinking amnesty and millions of new welfare dependent democrat voters. It is not about the good of the country or even the well being of the immigrants. It is all about, and only about winning future elections, turning red states blue, and building a new permanent underclass to be exploited to keep them in power.

 

Am I the only one who finds this type of perspective hard to believe?

 

The lack of effectiveness to implement proper immigration reform or control  is really about the Democrats staying in power?

 

It's been that way for decades. It's working too, even Texas will turn Democrat within 10 years, Republican party is dead even if they don't know it yet.

 

 

 

 

WOD, can I share my personal perspective around what's really killing the Republican party. Its not the immigrants that are doing this, its the intransigence from the more conservative members within the party around there refusal to adopt or even want to recognise social changes that are sweeping through most Western democracies. The days of white, heterosexual males only representing the voice and aspirations of any political party are over. And if any political party can't make a transition from the  older and anachronistic structures to properly embrace this bold and grand new world then you are right, they are finished

[Leferd]

That and the insistence that the US Constitution is some sort of a holy relic that must be worshipped and obeyed to the strictest, and narrowest interpretation. Just like the Bible/Koran/Torah -it's a piece of paper.

 

Fundamentalism is alive and well in disparate quarters of America.

 

On the far left, you have those who hate America so much that they want to tear down our perceived fascist government. On the far right, you have those who love America so much that they'd rather hold on to their good ol' days thinking and worship pieces of paper that was written hundreds of years ago to the exclusion of everything else. While both sides argue til they're blue, the reality is that they still live in a pretty friggin kick ass country that is the world's most dominant and that we have a right to be as arrogant and full of hubris as the rest of the world think we are, because we are that awesome, and people absolutely want to come here. So...Go 'murica!

[BruceVC]

That and the insistence that the US Constitution is some sort of a holy relic that must be worshipped and obeyed to the strictest, and narrowest interpretation. Just like the Bible/Koran/Torah -it's a piece of paper.

 

Fundamentalism is alive and well in disparate quarters of America.

 

On the far left, you have those who hate America so much that they want to tear down our perceived fascist government. On the far right, you have those who love America so much that they'd rather hold on to their good ol' days thinking and worship pieces of paper that was written hundreds of years ago to the exclusion of everything else. While both sides argue til they're blue, the reality is that they still live in a pretty friggin kick ass country that is the world's most dominant and that we have a right to be as arrogant and full of hubris as the rest of the world think we are, because we are that awesome, and people absolutely want to come here. So...Go 'murica!

 

Good points raised and of course the far left has its controversial and embarrassing comments but it seems to me that the far right seems to make them much more

 

Whether its Rush Limbaugh or the infamous Romney 47  %  comment there just seem to be a preponderance of these types of views from certain Republicans that even if they are true they  really offend and annoy people. But the type of thing that gets to me the most is what happened at a GOP debate on 2011 when a gay soldier based in Iraq  asked a question around " would the don't ask don't tell policy  be reinstated if they came to power", several people in the audience booed after his question. And not one member of the Republican candidates challenged the audience on this

 

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/183475-gay-soldier-booed-at-gop-debate-candidates-stay-mum

 

So in other words its okay for a gay soldier to be prepared to fight and die for his country in some desert hellhole but its not okay for him to say "I'm gay "....I found this whole event utterly appalling

[Leferd]

General acceptance of social change in America ironically enough, usually starts in the segments of our country that is usually perceived to be the most resistant to change: the military and professional sports.

 

Once they are accepted in one of either, or both institutions, they will eventually become accepted into the norm. Athletes are now starting to come out of the closet from many of the major sports, and so far, there has been positive acceptance for the most part.

 

You could make the same argument as well with pop music I suppose...but old curmudgeons still tend to cling to their generational music.

[Wrath of Dagon]

WOD, can I share my personal perspective around what's really killing the Republican party. Its not the immigrants that are doing this, its the intransigence from the more conservative members within the party around there refusal to adopt or even want to recognise social changes that are sweeping through most Western democracies. The days of white, heterosexual males only representing the voice and aspirations of any political party are over. And if any political party can't make a transition from the  older and anachronistic structures to properly embrace this bold and grand new world then you are right, they are finished

You're right to a large extent, it's a contributing factor, especially among the younger people. Then again, we don't need 2 Democrat parties. But immigration and demographic trends are a huge factor also. Edit : For example, in Texas the cultural issues are not a problem, it's still quite socially conservative. But the demographic changes mostly wrought by illegal immigration are a huge factor, and I am convinced will make Texas Democrat and ruin it like they ruined so many places within the decade.

 

 

That and the insistence that the US Constitution is some sort of a holy relic that must be worshipped and obeyed to the strictest, and narrowest interpretation. Just like the Bible/Koran/Torah -it's a piece of paper.

 

Fundamentalism is alive and well in disparate quarters of America.

 

On the far left, you have those who hate America so much that they want to tear down our perceived fascist government. On the far right, you have those who love America so much that they'd rather hold on to their good ol' days thinking and worship pieces of paper that was written hundreds of years ago to the exclusion of everything else. While both sides argue til they're blue, the reality is that they still live in a pretty friggin kick ass country that is the world's most dominant and that we have a right to be as arrogant and full of hubris as the rest of the world think we are, because we are that awesome, and people absolutely want to come here. So...Go 'murica!

I don't think you understand why people value the Constitution so much. It's not that's it's a holy relic, is that it's the Supreme Law of the land, and when you ignore it, you undermine the rule of law, which is mankind's greatest achievement. The reason people admire it so much is not from religious feeling as you claim, but because it is still the best human attempt to guaranty liberty and justice for all. If there are problems with the Constitution, it has an amendment process which has been utilized many times, it just requires broad national consensus. Edited August 14, 2014 by Wrath of Dagon

[Wrath of Dagon]

Cisco lays off 6000 after calling for amnesty, guest workers : http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/08/14/Cisco-Slashes-6-000-Jobs-After-Pushing-More-Amnesty-Guest-Worker-Visas

[Namutree]

My opinion on asylum:

 

I honestly don't support asylum. It's just more international crap that gets us entangled in diplomatic messes. As far as I'm concerned; let foreigners deal with their own problems.

 

Ironically, I do however want these people to be allowed in. It won't lead to any foreign diplomatic issues; so why not just welcome them?

[Namutree]

 

 

WOD, can I share my personal perspective around what's really killing the Republican party. Its not the immigrants that are doing this, its the intransigence from the more conservative members within the party around there refusal to adopt or even want to recognise social changes that are sweeping through most Western democracies. The days of white, heterosexual males only representing the voice and aspirations of any political party are over. And if any political party can't make a transition from the  older and anachronistic structures to properly embrace this bold and grand new world then you are right, they are finished

 

What's really killing the republican party is their refusal to follow a consistent philosophy. Richard Nixon created an new brand of republicanism that abandoned capitalism in favor of stealing "conservatives" as they inaccurately call themselves; from democrats. It partially worked at first, but here's what Nixon forgot to take into consideration:

 

The Democrats kicked out these buffoons because they were based on a dying ideology and sinking their long term viability. The only reason the republicans met any success is because of the pathetic incompetency of the democrats. Ultimately though; a party needs a core belief system that is viable. The democrats fixed theirs in the 70's. Republicans need to fix theirs now.

 

Most Hispanics approve of removing the laws that prevent citizens from hiring illegal immigrants. Most Hispanics like the idea of making immigration to the US easier. Most Hispanics oppose the border fence.

 

What do these ideas have in common? These are all CAPITALIST positions. If the republican party hadn't abandoned capitalism they would be the dominant party. Instead, they're dying off.

 

Serves them right.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Namutree

[Wrath of Dagon]

Capitalism isn't a political philosophy, it's an economic system.