Confusions over Illegal Immigrants vs Refugees

[ktchong]

Recently, the US borders have been flooded by women and children who escaped crimes and gang violence in Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador. The UN is pressuring the US to change our immigration rules that determine asylum and refugee status, so that we will allow those Central American women and children to stay as refugees.

The US has very peculiar rules for granting asylum and refugee status. In order to be granted asylum and permission to stay in the US, the refugee has to be persecuted in her country for one of these five reasons: her race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or her political opinion. Targeted group-specific (i.e., discriminated) prosecution is the key here. The US do NOT grant asylum or refugee status for "general" violence that indiscriminately affect everyone in the home country, (e.g., war, crimes, or gang violence.)

Specific examples: During WWII, Jews were granted asylum and permission to stay in the US because they were targeted by Nazi for their race and religion. After the Vietnam War, Vietnamese targeted Chinese, Laos and Khmer (Cambodians) in Vietnam for cleansing. That was why those particular groups were granted asylum in the US. They were targeted by Nazi/Vietnamese based on their races, religion and/or nationalities.

The recent immigrants and children from Central America escaped gang violence that affects everyone in their countries, indiscriminately, and not just specific groups. Therefore under current rules in the US, those children certainly would NOT be eligible for asylum or refugee status in the US. When they appear in the immigration court and make their cases to immigration judges, they would most certainly be deported.

 

I just want to clarify because there seems to be some confusion as to whether those children are refugees or not.  Under our current rules, they are NOT.

[Tale]

Did you mean to post this in another thread? It seems like it's part of a conversation.

[BruceVC]

Recently, the US borders have been flooded by women and children who escaped crimes and gang violence in Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador. The UN is pressuring the US to change our immigration rules that determine asylum and refugee status, so that we will allow those Central American women and children to stay as refugees.

 

The US has very peculiar rules for granting asylum and refugee status. In order to be granted asylum and permission to stay in the US, the refugee has to be persecuted in her country for one of these five reasons: her race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or her political opinion. Targeted group-specific (i.e., discriminated) prosecution is the key here. The US do NOT grant asylum or refugee status for "general" violence that indiscriminately affect everyone in the home country, (e.g., war, crimes, or gang violence.)

 

Specific examples: During WWII, Jews were granted asylum and permission to stay in the US because they were targeted by Nazi for their race and religion. After the Vietnam War, Vietnamese targeted Chinese, Laos and Khmer (Cambodians) in Vietnam for cleansing. That was why those particular groups were granted asylum in the US. They were targeted by Nazi/Vietnamese based on their races, religion and/or nationalities.

 

The recent immigrants and children from Central America escaped gang violence that affects everyone in their countries, indiscriminately, and not just specific groups. Therefore under current rules in the US, those children certainly would NOT be eligible for asylum or refugee status in the US. When they appear in the immigration court and make their cases to immigration judges, they would most certainly be deported.

 

I just want to clarify because there seems to be some confusion as to whether those children are refugees or not.  Under our current rules, they are NOT.

 

IMO if your definition is accurate they would not be granted asylum as gang violence is not persecution or a form of genocide that does allow the USA citizenship. The UN is wrong to say they are refugees?

[ktchong]

Under the current US rules, I do not believe those children should be granted asylum or US residency.  BTW,  an asylum is the permission to stay in the US.   It is not citizenship.  After a person stays in the US for a certain number of years, he can then apply for US citizenship.  Different countries have slightly different rules on granting asylum and refugee status.  Some Western nations recognize people who escaped general violence (wars or crimes) in their countries as refugees.  Others recognize them as refugees but do not grant them asylum, i.e., they can stay but would not be granted permanent residency, in which case they may have to stay in a designated refugee camp and can not move freely in the country. 

 

That is why I said the US has "peculiar" rules for granting asylum and refugee status.  I think the US has one of the stricter requirements for someone to be considered as a refugee.  What I do not like is how the UN or some Central American nations butting in to tell us how we should change our rules or laws to accommodate the women and children who have recently flooded into our country.  I also do not like how so many people are already calling them "refugees" to gear the conversations towards letting them stay in the US.  They may be considered as refugees in other countries but certainly not in ours.

 

I used to support immigration reform and creating a path to citizenship for people who have been illegally here since childhood, even though that meant changing our laws to accommodate them.  I thought, if it was a one-time thing, fine, let them stay.  However, the recent border crisis has changed my mind: I am now against immigration reform.  I just do not think we should keep changing our laws, again and again, just to accommodate more and more people who are coming into our country illegally.

[Chairchucker]

IMO the current US rules are bad and should be changed.

 

Then again, I live in Australia, sooooo... :/

[BruceVC]

IMO the current US rules are bad and should be changed.

 

Then again, I live in Australia, sooooo... :/

 

Interesting,  you boys just throw your refugees in concentration  camps for processing right  ....errr I meant to say detention camps

[Wrath of Dagon]

Well, the rest of the world sucks, so yall can just come here, no problem.

[BruceVC]

Well, the rest of the world sucks, so yall can just come here, no problem.

 

Its funny but with the drain on your  countries resources and fact you guys have really large numbers of illegal immigrants this comment is the last thing I would expect to hear from you? What are you going to tell me next, you support the Democrats?

Edited August 9, 2014 by BruceVC

[Guard Dog]

It's a complicated issue. If you want to legally come to the US and become a citizen it's actually pretty easy to do. If you want to be a citizen and come here illegally then what you are really doing is breaking our laws just so you can promise to obey them. It's like lying about yourself just to get someone to marry you. But the truth is the majority of the folks streaming across the southern border have no desire to become citizens, learn the language and culture and assimilate. They are coming for two things, work or welfare. We can effectively take away both by just enforcing existing laws. No fuel no fire.

 

However that will not happen. The current administrations has instructed ICE, INS, Border Patrol, etc. specifically NOT to enforce the law and send these folks back because they are thinking amnesty and millions of new welfare dependent democrat voters. It is not about the good of the country or even the well being of the immigrants. It is all about, and only about winning future elections, turning red states blue, and building a new permanent underclass to be exploited to keep them in power.

[Wrath of Dagon]

So what's so complicated? You just explained it perfectly, except it's not easy to come legally, too many people want in, sometimes the wait is as long as 20 years even for people with family here (not that's it's our problem, improve your own countries, we're not responsible for everyone).

 

 

Well, the rest of the world sucks, so yall can just come here, no problem.

Its funny but with the drain on your countries resources and fact you guys have really large numbers of illegal immigrants this comment is the last thing I would expect to hear from you? What are you going to tell me next, you support the Democrats?

 

I was being sarcastic. But thanks to the Lightworker, we now have open borders, so yeah.

 

Edit: Border Patrol agent murdered by illegal aliens in front of his family : http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2014/08/09/TX-Attorney-General-Obama-Administration-has-Blood-on-Its-Own-Hands

Edited August 9, 2014 by Wrath of Dagon

[Leferd]

 

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

[Guard Dog]

So what's so complicated? You just explained it perfectly, except it's not easy to come legally, too many people want in, sometimes the wait is as long as 20 years even for people with family here (not that's it's our problem, improve your own countries, we're not responsible for everyone).

 

 

It's complicated in that the actual motives, ends sought, and means taken are not in line with the talking points or the official media story. But it seldom is. The only honest moment in a politicians life is when he admits he's lying.

[Guard Dog]

 

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Yep and if they walk in through that "Golden Door" they are welcomed as brothers and sisters. It's when the skip the golden door and break in through the window, then once in insist on ownership of the house, that we have a problem.

[Hurlshort]

The Golden Door is really only available to people with enough gold to make their own, nowadays.

 

 

So what's so complicated? You just explained it perfectly, except it's not easy to come legally, too many people want in, sometimes the wait is as long as 20 years even for people with family here (not that's it's our problem, improve your own countries, we're not responsible for everyone).
 

 

Except it is our concern, for a number of economic reasons.  It is easily in our best interests to have our southern neighbors be as stable as our northern neighbor.  

[Wrath of Dagon]

That's not what I said.

[ktchong]

I had an "encounter" with illegal immigrants in Los Angeles a couple years ago.

 

I lost my Samsung S3 phone, which was brand new at the time.   Fortunately I had a phone finder app installed on it.  It was a rooted app that could not be removed by resetting the phone.  I was panicking because almost all my life information was on the phone.

I used my laptop to try to locate my lost phone via the phone finder app.  The phone was turned off throughout most of the days.   I waited and waited.  Finally, the thief turned my phone back on, and then I was able to pinpoint the phone's location.   I went to location, which was a Hispanic neighborhood.  I confronted a kid whom I suspected had taken my phone.  Obviously he denied that he had the phone.  The parents thought that I was bullying their kid.  They wanted me to deal with them instead of the kid; but I could not communicate with the parents because they could not speak English.   It was a mess.  Soon enough, the entire neighborhood, which was Hispanic, descended on me.  I felt threatened so I left.
 
I immediately called the cops to report the incident.  I waited until the kids turned my phone back on.  Then I called the cops again.  A cop accompanied me to the kid's home.  I used the laptop to activate a loud alarm on my phone.   That was how I recovered the phone.  The kid was in trouble.
 
Turned out that the kid's family was illegal immigrants. (I was not quite sure on the kid's status, but the parents were definitely illegal.)  I was still ticked off by the whole experience.  I wanted the cop to file a charge.   Here is the unbelievable part: the cop actually told me to just let it go.   He said I got my phone back so all was fine, and he just gave the kid a stern warning.  Supposedly if I pursue the case, the entire family could end up being deported.  The cop was actually trying to help the family who were illegally here in the United States.  I generally respect cops so I just walked away.

 

I am still kinda upset every time I think about it, (because the kid had reset my phone and deleted a lot of important information on my phone.)  I should have called the ICE (Immigration and Custom Enforcement.)

Edited August 10, 2014 by ktchong

[Leferd]

 

Cheech Marin is my hero.

[Hurlshort]

I had an "encounter" with illegal immigrants in Los Angeles a couple years ago.

 

I lost my Samsung S3 phone, which was brand new at the time.   Fortunately I had a phone finder app installed on it.  It was a rooted app that could not be removed by resetting the phone.  I was panicking because almost all my life information was on the phone.

 

I used my laptop to try to locate my lost phone via the phone finder app.  The phone was turned off throughout most of the days.   I waited and waited.  Finally, the thief turned my phone back on, and then I was able to pinpoint the phone's location.   I went to location, which was a Hispanic neighborhood.  I confronted a kid whom I suspected had taken my phone.  Obviously he denied that he had the phone.  The parents thought that I was bullying their kid.  They wanted me to deal with them instead of the kid; but I could not communicate with the parents because they could not speak English.   It was a mess.  Soon enough, the entire neighborhood, which was Hispanic, descended on me.  I felt threatened so I left.

 

I immediately called the cops to report the incident.  I waited until the kids turned my phone back on.  Then I called the cops again.  A cop accompanied me to the kid's home.  I used the laptop to activate a loud alarm on my phone.   That was how I recovered the phone.  The kid was in trouble.

 

Turned out that the kid's family was illegal immigrants. (I was not quite sure on the kid's status, but the parents were definitely illegal.)  I was still ticked off by the whole experience.  I wanted the cop to file a charge.   Here is the unbelievable part: the cop actually told me to just let it go.   He said I got my phone back so all was fine, and he just gave the kid a stern warning.  Supposedly if I pursue the case, the entire family could end up being deported.  The cop was actually trying to help the family who were illegally here in the United States.  I generally respect cops so I just walked away.

 

I am still kinda upset every time I think about it, (because the kid had reset my phone and deleted a lot of important information on my phone.)  I should have called the ICE (Immigration and Custom Enforcement.)

 

 

There are an estimated 3 million illegal immigrants in California, so I guarantee you've had more encounters than just that one if you are in the LA area.  

 

 

Here is a good article on what undocumented workers actually do to our economy.  It isn't a black and white issue.

[HoonDing]

There were huge issues with Chinese immigrants in the USA in the 19th century (even a couple of pogroms against them) but they seem to be doing very well anno 2014.

[ktchong]

There are an estimated 3 million illegal immigrants in California, so I guarantee you've had more encounters than just that one if you are in the LA area.  

 

 

Here is a good article on what undocumented workers actually do to our economy.  It isn't a black and white issue.

 

 

Here in Los Angeles, I-10 Freeway is one of the most congested highway in the world.  I-10 was always congested during work hours. 

 

In 2006, there was a citywide strike in Los Angeles over immigration reform.   The Hispanic illegal immigrant population just went on strike and refused to work on that day.  I drove through I-10 on that Friday, fully expected the traffic to be horrible. 

 

The entire freeway was abandoned.  Empty.  It was a smooth drive on I-10.  That's when I realized, holy ****, Los Angeles must be a full of illegal immigrants.

Edited August 10, 2014 by ktchong

[Wrath of Dagon]

Here is a good article on what undocumented workers actually do to our economy.  It isn't a black and white issue.

It's funny that the people who most support raising the minimum wage also support illegal aliens taking American jobs, working for sub-minimum wage and not paying taxes, something that low-skilled American workers have no chance of competing against. "Hey, you deserve a living wage, but guess what, you can't actually have the job that would give you a living wage, because we gave them all to the illegals."

[Hurlshort]

You are kidding yourself if you think American citizens are lining up to harvest the fields.  They'd rather collect welfare.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

You are kidding yourself if you think American citizens are lining up to harvest the fields. They'd rather collect welfare.

I vaguely recall an initiative by the UFW advertising interested folks to take the jobs of farm workers. Didn't have many people show up, probably because of the low pay for very hard work.

[Hurlshort]

I support massive immigration reform.  Our government is too meek and our general populace is too stupid to recognize how important undocumented workers are to our economy.  We should have a full scale Bracero-type program with Mexico, one that benefits both countries.  Instead the politicians ignore the potential solutions and gesticulate madly at the border to try and drum up votes.  

 

Our border should be focused on keeping out criminals, weapons and drugs, not families looking for opportunities.  These families are coming for one reason:

 

There are jobs available to them.  They may not pay much, but it's better than what they get at home, and their kids get an education and potentially rise above the poverty level.  Would anyone here realistically stay in squalor if their were better opportunities elsewhere?

 

As I already stated, this is entirely separate from the unemployment rate for American citizens, because it has been shown time and time again that Americans would rather stay on welfare than fill the jobs undocumented workers are doing.  That's a problem with welfare (one of many) but what do you plan to do?  Force Americans to do those jobs?  We don't live in a Communist state.

 

Ideally we should be doing everything we can to create programs that benefit both the US economy and Mexico.  Spending resources on borders and deportation is simply a wasteful exercise that never truly fixes the problems.

[Wrath of Dagon]

They'd harvest the fields if those jobs paid enough. Of course when welfare benefits exceed the rewards of hard work, rationally you would choose the former. And harvesting the fields isn't the only jobs illegals are taking, it's virtually all unskilled jobs, which would otherwise be entry level jobs people could get training in. Instead American citizens are encouraged to become dependent on the government, causing immense social problems and rotting our society from within. If you open the border to all who want to come here, we'll soon be overwhelmed and dragged to the level of the countries they're trying to escape to start with. Not to mention once they're legal, they'd be eligible for the very same welfare benefits, or are you going to let their poor hungry children starve because the mother with 20 children can't find work in our cruel capitalist system?

 

Edit: Even if you just want to keep criminals, weapons and drugs out (weapons actually flow the other way, not that it shouldn't be stopped also), you still have to secure the borders, something the government simply refuses to do in spite of all the laws. If that was done, then we could democratically decide what level of legal immigration we want to allow, but I guess since the general populace is too stupid, you don't believe things should be decided democratically either.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Wrath of Dagon