The August Update creeping ever closer - hopes and fears

[DCParry]

 

Are we getting an update today or are we getting one next week? That's what I'm speculating about... an update on the 13th regarding the Beta, pre-buffing us for the Beta, seems both more realistic and more "actual" in time to the Beta on the 18th.

 

 

PHAH! We all there is no pre-buffing in PoE! Wait for combat to start before applying your beta buffs.

[Karkarov]

 

Nothing is a pretty easy fix. Pathing and unit movement is a complex problem with many edge cases. It also needs to be run-time and memory efficient, which can make it even a more challenging problem to solve.

Fair enough.

 

Moving forward, how does the pathfinding correspond to the fog of war? Does it take units obscured by it into account? (I don't think that's a common practice in modern RTS games).

 

To be honest this is one of my few concerns with the game so far from the video we have seen.  The fog of war does seem a little closer than needed and maybe should be a little farther out. It is a minor gripe though.

 

Also thanks for the responses Mr. Adler and Mr. Brennecke!  Part of what makes me enjoy these forums and have faith in Eternity's direction is how communicative you guys and the other devs are, and how willing Obsidian is to defend it's big decisions (even when unpopular) and explain them rationally.

 

PS: Death to the big head haters, don't even think about taking that out!

Edited August 8, 2014 by Karkarov

[Mannock]

 

PS: Death to the big head haters, don't even think about taking that out!

 

 

 

 

You write that as if there's more than two of us (me and Gromnir).

 

So chill.

[WorstUsernameEver]

To be honest this is one of my few concerns with the game so far from the video we have seen.  The fog of war does seem a little closer than needed and maybe should be a little farther out. It is a minor gripe though.

Josh said on Something Awful (currently behind paywall) that he agrees and it's something that will be changed for the final release:

 

There are two radii for fog of war. The "dimming" gradient happens from the inner to the outer and right now I think the inner is too small.

[BAdler]

 

 

Nothing is a pretty easy fix. Pathing and unit movement is a complex problem with many edge cases. It also needs to be run-time and memory efficient, which can make it even a more challenging problem to solve.

Fair enough.

 

Moving forward, how does the pathfinding correspond to the fog of war? Does it take units obscured by it into account? (I don't think that's a common practice in modern RTS games).

 

To be honest this is one of my few concerns with the game so far from the video we have seen.  The fog of war does seem a little closer than needed and maybe should be a little farther out. It is a minor gripe though.

 

Also thanks for the responses Mr. Adler and Mr. Brennecke!  Part of what makes me enjoy these forums and have faith in Eternity's direction is how communicative you guys and the other devs are, and how willing Obsidian is to defend it's big decisions (even when unpopular) and explain them rationally.

 

PS: Death to the big head haters, don't even think about taking that out!

 

 

The fog of war was just expanded in yesterday's build. We will probably wait for more beta feedback before tweaking it again.

[Lephys]

*raises glass*... Here's to hoping the beta feedback doesn't too much resemble microphone feedback.

[Sensuki]

Get yourself a pop filter

[Lephys]

Why would I want to filter my dad? 6_u

[Ineth]

I wouldn't want to see threads created with 'why you make Barbarian so OP???' and the bug threads being buried.

 

Why should we consider balancing problems less noteworthy than technical bugs?

[Karkarov]

 

I wouldn't want to see threads created with 'why you make Barbarian so OP???' and the bug threads being buried.

 

Why should we consider balancing problems less noteworthy than technical bugs?

 

Well a lot of those threads are bunk for one thing.  But class feedback will definitely be welcome. 

 

 

Get yourself a pop filter

i suspect no one other than me is laughing at your comment, or even knows what you mean ;_;

 

Fortunately my mic has one built in.

[Sensuki]

*P*robably

 

I use a Logitech Desktop mic which I bought in 2005. Still going strong. Gonna use that for my PE beta play through, but if the audio isn't good enough then I may upgrade to a proper setup or something.

[Nonek]

 

The fog of war was just expanded in yesterday's build. We will probably wait for more beta feedback before tweaking it again.

 

 

I always thought that Divine Divinity handled the fog of war quite uniquely, for the simple fact that ones skills (I believe Ranger and Elven sight) could modify ones viewing distance. I don't believe that i've seen this used before or since.

[Ark Evensong]

In Arcanum, the Perception stat was tied to how far you could scroll the screen/view away from your character.

Interesting enough, but I'm not usually a fan of tying User Interface usability to character stats.

 

For fog of war, I guess it's acceptable in rare circumstances? (Dark caves, or .. I dunno, just not most of the time.) Otherwise it becomes a must-have for the player instead of the character.

[Nonek]

Oh I wouldn't call it a must have for the game, except perhaps with archer characters. It was useful for clearing the map however, for those of us whom are slightly ocd about such things.

[Ark Evensong]

Well, I haven't played Divine Divinity, so I'll take your word for it. As long as the standard range is 'enough', I guess it's fine?

Still not a fan of the concept, though.

[Sensuki]

 

The fog of war was just expanded in yesterday's build. We will probably wait for more beta feedback before tweaking it again.

 

I always thought that Divine Divinity handled the fog of war quite uniquely, for the simple fact that ones skills (I believe Ranger and Elven sight) could modify ones viewing distance. I don't believe that i've seen this used before or since.

 

Diablo 1 and 2 ? (The games that Divine Divinity ripped off), granted it was more items

Edited August 9, 2014 by Sensuki

[Nonek]

Personally I wish that the Diablo's had copied Divinity in terms of the skill system, the interactive world and the free roaming nature of the game. It seemed a natural evolution for the genre rather than regressing to what it is now.

 

Edit: I would say that it was far more of a homage to the Ultima's than Diablo, with only the frequency and basic nature of the combat resembling the latter. Though apparently they wanted to make it turn based originally, but were refused by publishers supposedly? Can't speak for how true that rumour is however.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Nonek

[Lephys]

I still think it would be awesome to have stages of visibility tied into stuff like darkness and infra/low-light vision. I mean, if it was really dark, but you could see a little, you'd be able to see a shadowy form moving and attacking you, and you could fight it, but you wouldn't be able to make out all the details. So, on-screen, this could amount to basically a shadowy humanoid/creature-oid figure (whatever general form the foe has) fighting you, with unspecified armor/health/etc. ratings (where such things are known/visible/presented to the player). Thus, having night-vision and all that would actually affect more than simply whether or not the player can visually detect a foe.

 

It's not as if things go from practically invisible (darkness) to fully-detailed.

[Ztirual]

I still think it would be awesome to have stages of visibility tied into stuff like darkness and infra/low-light vision. I mean, if it was really dark, but you could see a little, you'd be able to see a shadowy form moving and attacking you, and you could fight it, but you wouldn't be able to make out all the details. So, on-screen, this could amount to basically a shadowy humanoid/creature-oid figure (whatever general form the foe has) fighting you, with unspecified armor/health/etc. ratings (where such things are known/visible/presented to the player). Thus, having night-vision and all that would actually affect more than simply whether or not the player can visually detect a foe.

 

It's not as if things go from practically invisible (darkness) to fully-detailed.

This makes me ponder upon how stealth would function with such a mechanic - pretty intense, I'd say! That is, of course, in the assumption that it would affect all NPCs and creatures. But apart from sneaking, encounters and such in dark places or night times drastically improves as it would capture the sense of wading through blackness. But one thing though, would the PCs also be shadowy figures, or, for pure gameplay convenience, would they be illuminated in some way?

[Lephys]

Hmmmm... in a way, it'd be cool if you could actually fail to distinguish between friend or foe. BUT, that would kind of conflict with the whole "I'm an omniscient party-manager in the sky" mechanic that's going on. So... I would say for simplicity's sake, all PCs would always be identifiable to each other. I think gameplay convenience trumps simulation there.

 

Also, I'm just talking about states here, to make sure that's clear. Not some dynamic gradient of visibility or anything. You'd have 3 states:

 

-Undetected

-Detected but not fully identifiable

-Detected and identified.

 

The middle state would result in the combat log displaying "??? hits Steve for 8 Piercing damage," etc. Or, you might have something like "Humanoid," or "animal", etc. I mean, you're going to know the difference between a wolf form and a person-form, if you can see it well-enough to know there's a creature there. Just because you don't know if it's a wolf, or a dog, or a small bear, etc, doesn't mean you can't tell it's not a human, etc.

 

Anywho, that's just the basic idea. Might even be that you suffer penalties against a foe you can't see well. So, sneaky types. Maybe fire spells and the like could provide illumination. You could even have flare-type spells with tactical use, etc.

 

I just think states of light/visibility are under-used in RPGs, 8P

[Ineth]

It was certainly disappointing that in the Baldur's Gate games, "Infravision" did not affect the combat mechanics / character skills at all, and was only implemented as a small cosmetic effect on the graphics rendering on dark maps. Especially since it was presented to the player as if it was an important skill for characters to have - race descriptions during character creation talked about, items provided it as a bonus, and I think there even was a spell for it.

 

I hope that in PE, "see in darkness" type abilities will either have a meaningful effect on the game mechanics, or not exist at all.

[Osvir]

Infravision Idea into Brainstorm, rethorically presented:

Infravision could be a "group spell"............

Are there "Group Spells" in Pillars of Eternity? Like, you need 2 characters to perform a "ritual" to cast the spell....

Ritual Spells? Have we discussed this subject... and is it too late if we haven't? Expansion, Mod, or Future?

Because something like a group/party-"Utevo Lux" for the entire party could be a great way to handle spells or natural effects like "Infravision". Utevo Lux, is, if I recall correctly a "Light" spell (IIRC: name) MMO called "Tibia" and it gives you a larger radius on your Vision Range.

It could also simply be an upgrade to your "Light source" over the course of the game (you see very short in the beginning, and late game you can see far). We discussed "Torches!" a long time ago and I don't quite recall if we got somewhere with that, but the point: Infravision-similar Spell being a High-Level Spell? This would have to make the ENTIRE game much much darker to have any significance.

One thing with many many games fail to achieve is an immersive "dark vision". Potentially because of hard work, a lot of triggers to be put in place and code written. Doom 3 somewhat succeeds, in the beginning, but later it becomes a "brighter" experience (in terms of "light" and what you can physically see in front of you). I think this is partially why I personally find Doom 3 less scary later in the game. If it would be pitch black ALL through the game with the flashlight, that'd be tense.

In Doom 3 everything becomes pitch-black, as if they simply took a jpeg painted black and set it at a single resolution. The blackness in Doom 3 could have been a single pixel, zoomed in. That's how dark it was. But Doom 3 still managed to creep up my spine and give me them scares thanks to it xD I haven't played Amnesia, but seen a little bit out of it, and whilst I think it has a "dark" experience it is still looks like a "bright" experience in terms of lighting (it could've been darker).

What I am trying to say is that many games "fail" to present that human "dark vision" that we get in darker rooms.

I feel that many developers don't try to go "all the way", and instead gives the Player more vision at the expense of what could be a great mechanic.

EDIT:
- Group Spells? (Ritual Spells) 2 or more party members.
- Darker Environments and more immersive/realistic "dark vision". Can the undertone of what I call "Gamma" (I am unsure if this is the term I actually mean~) be tied to Fog of War literally in code? Could it be a Difficulty Option?
High Gamma = No need for Light Source Mechanics
Mid Gamma = Minor convenience with Light Source Mechanics
Low Gamma = Need for Light Source Mechanics
- Light resources and Light spells start as "Torch" and ends as "High Level Automation"?

Edited August 10, 2014 by Osvir

[Karkarov]

Infravision is a D&D thing and very gimmicky to make it mean anything in a CRPG.  Better we just assume everyone has the same eyesight and build around that then let any vision "advantages" like spotting secrets be tied to things like how Perception works in Divinity Original Sin.

[Kjaamor]

They haven't been stated explicitly, but Sawyer said over on SA that it should run just fine on weaker/older boxes. He also said that if anything'll be a problem it'll be RAM.

 

e: Specifically he said that his personal goal was for it to run well on machines 5 or more years old, so I think a lower end but recent card isn't going to be a big problem.

 

Uh-oh.

 

My machine is beginning to show its age now, putting it the other side of the five year margin. That the potential issue is RAM is a pain, because I had D:OS and it was absolutely unplayable on this computer, since I mostly game on windows XP (32bit). Hopefully it doesn't take too long for the Linux port, which obviously doesn't have the same RAM restrictions.

 

Many people will chime in with "Why the hell are you still using XP?", but when you learn your way around one system and then three more come out before you've noticed, upgrading is difficult to stomach. For that reason most of the time its easier for me to get things working on XP then it would be to get them working on windows 8.

[Ztirual]

Anywho, that's just the basic idea. Might even be that you suffer penalties against a foe you can't see well. So, sneaky types. Maybe fire spells and the like could provide illumination. You could even have flare-type spells with tactical use, etc.

 

I just think states of light/visibility are under-used in RPGs, 8P

Yes, to make more use of lighting and visibility really ups the ante when it comes to tactical decisions and strategies. For example; Party encounters an entrance to what appears to be a mystical ruin. It is night time and the only visible sources of light is a pathway of torches leading up a mound where there, seemingly, is a door - and also, in human eyes, shadowy figures moving about. You can't tell for sure. Now, you can make use of the darkness, have a scout sneak up and detect the foes, their gear, and their movement, and move one or two melee and ranged PCs out of the torchlights' range and into stealth, position them forward and have them hold. Then, if the scout's detection or identification succeded, draw the shadowy figures out with the remainder of the unstealthed party and close the gap, but just enough so that the hidden PCs are behind the enemy group. Then, without remorse, ambush from the dark of the night.

 

Things like that, for example, is desireable to have in these kinds of games, more so in those where you actually have to think. So yeah, I agree that lighting and visibility are way underrated and unused in RPGs, as situations like these usually have to be imagined in order to fill the gap left by the lack of mechanics. Even the basic idea you described could have the potential to lessen that gap and sharpen the tactical and immersive edge!