The Official Romance Thread

[Valmy]

 

Which is evil/neutral parties are the best.

 

 

 

Best for murdering your own party members?  Eh that's alright.  They are more useful alive.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Valmy

[Stun]

You right, I have never played an evil character before so the thought of killing someone who left my party would be unconscionable

What about situations where you don't actually do the killing?

 

You know, like sacrificing Anomen to Demogorgon's shrine in the underdark. Or having Aerie 'prove' her Bravery by sending her ahead (and alone) to clear out the Beholder Lair? Or letting Jaheira invoke the so-called power of nature by having her try and eliminate the Mindflayer outpost in the Sewers with only Sylvanis as her helper.

 

I find that these things allow you to kill off unwanted party members without guilt. Hell, you can even argue that you didn't kill them at all. They killed themselves.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Stun

[Valmy]

 

You know, like sacrificing Anomen to Demogorgon's shrine in the underdark. Or having Aerie 'prove' her Bravery by sending her ahead (and alone) to clear out the Beholder Lair? Or letting Jaheira invoke the so-called power of nature by having her try and eliminate the Mindflayer outpost in the Sewers with only Sylvanis as her helper.

 

 

YOU MONSTER!!

[Doppelschwert]

You know, for a moment I thought there was an option to sacrifice anomen in a dialogue to demigorgon and was dissappointed I missed it.

 

Now I'm dissappointed it's not there.

 

Would've been also great within the romance arc. 'If you really love me, sacrifice yourself to demigorgon for some pretty boots of haste for me'. So many roleplaying opportunities for npcs to comment on your boots for you to tell about your tragic romance and get to meet some even better lovers.

[BruceVC]

 

You right, I have never played an evil character before so the thought of killing someone who left my party would be unconscionable

What about situations where you don't actually do the killing?

 

You know, like sacrificing Anomen to Demogorgon's shrine in the underdark. Or having Aerie 'prove' her Bravery by sending her ahead (and alone) to clear out the Beholder Lair? Or letting Jaheira invoke the so-called power of nature by having her try and eliminate the Mindflayer outpost in the Sewers with only Sylvanis as her helper.

 

I find that these things allow you to kill off unwanted party members without guilt. Hell, you can even argue that you didn't kill them at all. They killed themselves.

 

 

I never did any of those things but they do sound exciting

[BruceVC]

Guys good news, I bought Jade Empire and will be playing it for the first time tomorrow night

 

I am going to be very objective around the Romance implementation and give feedback around what I think works and what doesn't

 

I am excited about this game, I have heard good things about it

[BruceVC]

You know, for a moment I thought there was an option to sacrifice anomen in a dialogue to demigorgon and was dissappointed I missed it.

 

Now I'm dissappointed it's not there.

 

Would've been also great within the romance arc. 'If you really love me, sacrifice yourself to demigorgon for some pretty boots of haste for me'. So many roleplaying opportunities for npcs to comment on your boots for you to tell about your tragic romance and get to meet some even better lovers.

 

Dude that made me laugh "'If you really love me, sacrifice yourself to demigorgon for some pretty boots of haste "

 

 

Can you imagine

[PrimeJunta]

Guys good news, I bought Jade Empire and will be playing it for the first time tomorrow night

 

I am going to be very objective around the Romance implementation and give feedback around what I think works and what doesn't

 

I am excited about this game, I have heard good things about it

 

There is more to it than romance, y'know. Like kicking. And punching.

 

(Let us know if you manage to get the threesome though.)

[Leferd]

 

 

Guys good news, I bought Jade Empire and will be playing it for the first time tomorrow night

 

I am going to be very objective around the Romance implementation and give feedback around what I think works and what doesn't

 

I am excited about this game, I have heard good things about it

There is more to it than romance, y'know. Like kicking. And punching.

 

(Let us know if you manage to get the threesome though.)

Oh man. That cutscene though!

[BruceVC]

 

Guys good news, I bought Jade Empire and will be playing it for the first time tomorrow night

 

I am going to be very objective around the Romance implementation and give feedback around what I think works and what doesn't

 

I am excited about this game, I have heard good things about it

 

There is more to it than romance, y'know. Like kicking. And punching.

 

(Let us know if you manage to get the threesome though.)

 

 

Yeah,  I know there is more to Jade empire than Romance, in fact the other parts of the RPG experience should be much more significant,  but I just mentioned the Romance part of it because this is a Romance thread and I'm looking forward to how it is implemented

Edited August 12, 2014 by BruceVC

[Lephys]

when romances or interaction between npcs or PC´s are somewhat "realistic" but illogical at the sametime you get what i had in BG2 the underdark. The evil dwarf in my party was so bad to aerie that she left... she left right at the beginning of the underdark and i lost my main spell caster because of that. I couldnt adventure further and had to use a save game prior to the sahuagin quest... That was unnecesary, unrealistic (she would never ever walk alone back to athkala) and just bad design!

See, that's because the romance was completely standalone. All it did was check your romance-o-meter, say "Nope, went below the threshold," and decide that she leaves you, no matter what. Not "Change her state, and have the situation check for states." Not "consider the situation." Nothing.

 

Might as well just put in a random Ultimate Frisbee minigame in, or a YuGiYoh-esque card game, allowing you to challenge whomever you wish, whenever. "OOooh! A scary dragon that wishes us dead! Hang on, guys. Let me beat it in a card game duel, real quick. THEN we can fight it." Annnnd there ya go. Cards = dumb. But wait, if you could play cards when it was feasible to do so, and/or you could hustle someone to great narrative effect because of your character's cards skill you'd honed, etc., that would be fine.

[PieSnatcher]

Romances weren't the only reason npc's could leave at rather inexplicable times (reputation change, other inter-NPC clashes), but I see the frustration. Not really an inherent flaw with romances, but perhaps an easy pitfall to consider. It does lend credence to the romances-are-resource-intensive argument, however, because it highlights how its implementation can be rather clumsy if it isn't thoroughly thought out.

Look at me, addressing two sides of an issue. How very measured and mature of myself. Cookie for me

Edited August 13, 2014 by PieSnatcher

[Lephys]

I still don't understand why simply consolidating all these good points -- both for and against -- is so far out of the question. We get a bunch of good, reasonable posts about it, but it eventually always comes full circle back to "Okay so let's decide that it's just fully good or fully bad, as an entity."

 

Romance shouldn't just be slapped into the game because it's inherently good, any more than it should be not-even-considered because it's inherently bad. Examples of how it's bad are useful in determining how to make it not-bad, not evidence that it should be purged from existence. And examples of how it can be good don't instantly mean "and therefore there's no reason not to put it in the game."

 

Why can't everyone just accumulate cookies?

[Stun]

Romance shouldn't just be slapped into the game because it's inherently good, any more than it should be not-even-considered because it's inherently bad. Examples of how it's bad are useful in determining how to make it not-bad, not evidence that it should be purged from existence. And examples of how it can be good don't instantly mean "and therefore there's no reason not to put it in the game."

 

Why can't everyone just accumulate cookies?

I'm game.

 

As you say, my side has certainly stepped up to the plate and cited a bajillion examples of video game romances from the past to demonstrate how bad they really are. So I guess it's time now for your side to do your part. Show us how romances in video games can be done well. Sound fair?

 

Because if you can't, then don't expect the discussion to ever deviate from its 'circular' nature. I'm certainly not going to suddenly change my stance just because someone waxes all philosophical and asks me to "have faith" that "maybe one day", some team of developers will come up with the "perfect design formula" that makes video game romances the opposite of what they've always been: bad.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Stun

[BruceVC]

 

Romance shouldn't just be slapped into the game because it's inherently good, any more than it should be not-even-considered because it's inherently bad. Examples of how it's bad are useful in determining how to make it not-bad, not evidence that it should be purged from existence. And examples of how it can be good don't instantly mean "and therefore there's no reason not to put it in the game."

 

Why can't everyone just accumulate cookies?

I'm game.

 

As you say, my side has certainly stepped up to the plate and cited a bajillion examples of video game romances from the past to demonstrate how bad they really are. So I guess it's time now for your side to do your part. Show us how romances in video games can be done well. Sound fair?

 

Because if you can't, then don't expect the discussion to ever deviate from its 'circular' nature. I'm certainly not going to suddenly change my stance just because someone waxes all philosophical and asks me to "have faith" that "maybe one day", some team of developers will come up with the "perfect design formula" that makes video game romances the opposite of what they've always been: bad.

 

 

Strange you ask that question " So I guess it's time now for your side to do your part. Show us how romances in video games can be done well ". We have done this on numerous occasions, but you know  me Stun. I don't mind repeating myself

 

In summary

 

• A person you will end up Romancing has to in the party basically the whole way during the game because how else would the feelings develop
• If you want to Romance someone else then this will create obvious friction and possibly lead to jealously and someone leaving the party
• Romance is not automatic, gifts aren't enough to guarantee Romance
• Romance  involves the right dialogue options but also certain events bring people closer together. For example surviving a powerful dragon or deadly dungeon will make the party  realize the brevity of life and how they need to make the most of life, considering everyday could be there last
• Some Romance arcs are not real and in fact involve the person using you for some nefarious deed. For example Fall-From-Grace is not a good succubus but has an agenda to manipulate you  to do her bidding, this will lead to you having certain predetermined dialogue options for example

 

Anyway that's just some ideas

Edited August 13, 2014 by BruceVC

[dorkboy]

@BruceDC

I strongly disagree with your first idea. Just leave CNPCs out of it. 

While romancing some random NPC is just as cheesy.. well, NPCs can afford to occasionally be cheesy. CNPCs cannot.

 

Just my opinion.

[Lephys]

"My" side has already provided lots of examples (not that that means there isn't room for more), and I'm gonna keep expecting the discussion to deviate from it's irrational circle. Sorry. Rationality is not conditional for me. And citing the absence of proof that romance is inherently flawed as an RPG component is hardly high philosophy. It's just simple observation.

 

Also, I'm not sure anyone else lives in your universe, where the only quality-level other than "bad" is "perfect." 8P

[BruceVC]

@BruceDC

I strongly disagree with your first idea. Just leave CNPCs out of it. 

While romancing some random NPC is just as cheesy.. well, NPCs can afford to occasionally be cheesy. CNPCs cannot.

 

Just my opinion.

 

I'm not with you, are you saying you don't want to Romance party members because you are concerned the Romance implementation would be cheesy?

[dorkboy]

 

@BruceDC

I strongly disagree with your first idea. Just leave CNPCs out of it. 

While romancing some random NPC is just as cheesy.. well, NPCs can afford to occasionally be cheesy. CNPCs cannot.

 

Just my opinion.

 

I'm not with you, are you saying you don't want to Romance party members because you are concerned the Romance implementation would be cheesy?

 

Ah, no. That would be like asking me if I am concerned I won't like boiled cod the next time someone offers it to me. 'Concern' would simply be an entirely wrong word for it.

The point was with regards to CNPCs versus NPCs. They function differently, and can generally be held to different standards. 

I think fewer people would loathe Jar Jar Binks if he only appeared in a single scene, moreso if that scene was of little relevance. ( -> Random NPC)

Conversely, zooming in on a character's 3D modelled face during conversation brings out the uncanniness of the articulation, in much the same way that romanceable CNPCs bring out the full extent  of CRPG romance cheesiness. It removes believable depth from the character, IMO. (And, yes, this is where we completely and utterly disagree    )

[BruceVC]

 

 

@BruceDC

I strongly disagree with your first idea. Just leave CNPCs out of it. 

While romancing some random NPC is just as cheesy.. well, NPCs can afford to occasionally be cheesy. CNPCs cannot.

 

Just my opinion.

 

I'm not with you, are you saying you don't want to Romance party members because you are concerned the Romance implementation would be cheesy?

 

Ah, no. That would be like asking me if I am concerned I won't like boiled cod the next time someone offers it to me. 'Concern' would simply be an entirely wrong word for it.

The point was with regards to CNPCs versus NPCs. They function differently, and can generally be held to different standards. 

I think fewer people would loathe Jar Jar Binks if he only appeared in a single scene, moreso if that scene was of little relevance. ( -> Random NPC)

Conversely, zooming in on a character's 3D modelled face during conversation brings out the uncanniness of the articulation, in much the same way that romanceable CNPCs bring out the full extent  of CRPG romance cheesiness. It removes believable depth from the character, IMO. (And, yes, this is where we completely and utterly disagree    )

 

 

We should be having a difference of opinions on this topic, that's the purpose it. We are trying to find the ideal system for Romance

 

But once again I just need to be clear on what you are saying, are you saying that fundamentally you are opposed to Romance options with party members for the reasons you mentioned. And any Romance should be with NPC outside the party?

 

If so that is because of past experiences you have had with  the normal Romance implementations which is always with party members, but I want to hear what a development company could do for you personally to change Romance with party members so that they would work. For example, would you suggest removing the zooming of the camera?

[Stun]

"My" side has already provided lots of examples

Not really. In the rare times when anyone has suggested some "new" idea, its logic has been shot down, or else it was shown to be not new at all.

 

Case in point:

In summary

• A person you will end up Romancing has to in the party basically the whole way during the game because how else would the feelings develop

So I take it you don't subscribe to the long-held romantic notion that absence makes the heart grow fonder?

 

 

• If you want to Romance someone else then this will create obvious friction and possibly lead to jealously and someone leaving the party

 

This isn't new. It's how BG2 does it. And, IIRC, it's how DA:O does it.

 

 

• Romance is not automatic, gifts aren't enough to guarantee Romance

 

^this one isn't even a suggestion. It's just a criticism of how previous video game romances handled things.

 

 

• Romance  involves the right dialogue options but also certain events bring people closer together. For example surviving a powerful dragon or deadly dungeon will make the party  realize the brevity of life and how they need to make the most of life, considering everyday could be there last

 

This is not new either. Event-based Romance triggers are how DA2 handled it. And how MoTB handled the Safiya Romance. And it was terrible. It was gamey, and felt fake.

 

 

• Some Romance arcs are not real and in fact involve the person using you for some nefarious deed. For example Fall-From-Grace is not a good succubus but has an agenda to manipulate you  to do her bidding, this will lead to you having certain predetermined dialogue options for example

 

^I don't understand this one at all. Are you suggesting that one way to do romances correctly is by deception and manipulation?

Edited August 13, 2014 by Stun

[BruceVC]

 

"My" side has already provided lots of examples

Not really. In the rare times when anyone has suggested some "new" idea, its logic has been shot down, or else it was shown to be not new at all.

 

Case in point:

In summary

• A person you will end up Romancing has to in the party basically the whole way during the game because how else would the feelings develop

So I take it you don't subscribe to the long-held romantic notion that absence makes the heart grow fonder?

 

 

• If you want to Romance someone else then this will create obvious friction and possibly lead to jealously and someone leaving the party

 

This isn't new. It's how BG2 does it. And, IIRC, it's how DA:O does it.

 

 

• Romance is not automatic, gifts aren't enough to guarantee Romance

 

^this one isn't even a suggestion. It's just a criticism of how previous video game romances handled things.

 

 

• Romance  involves the right dialogue options but also certain events bring people closer together. For example surviving a powerful dragon or deadly dungeon will make the party  realize the brevity of life and how they need to make the most of life, considering everyday could be there last

 

This is not new either. Event-based Romance triggers are how DA2 handled it. And how MoTB handled the Safiya Romance. And it was terrible. It was gamey, and felt fake.

 

 

• Some Romance arcs are not real and in fact involve the person using you for some nefarious deed. For example Fall-From-Grace is not a good succubus but has an agenda to manipulate you  to do her bidding, this will lead to you having certain predetermined dialogue options for example

 

^I don't understand this one at all. Are you suggesting that one way to do romances correctly is by deception and manipulation?

 

 

Wow Stun it doesn't sound like you like my suggestions? Maybe you should just be honest and say so....I find insincerity distasteful....as I said, just be honest

[TCJ]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that adding a romance is a waste of limited resources, so I'm happy that Obsidian decided to not include any.   Do I think that's it's possible that they could have written one that adds to role-playing?  Probably, but I'm always a skeptic.   BG2 wasn't bad (saying all the cruel things to Aerie was fun, but required loading!) in the possibilities, including the extra quests, minor as they may have been.    I think playing more upon the added content in new quests directly linked would be essential so it's not solely a few dialogue choices.  You might say that I view them more as an introduction to a new adventure.

[NWN_babaYaga]

@TCJ

that was a very good point. When a little feature or way to introduce a quest(romance) has been picked up by some very vocal people and morphed into a complete different thing then it was meant to be it spreads like a plague that every RPG has to have this... even it was never meant to be a main point of the game at all.

 

Hehe... not roleplaying game = RGP but romancing game with combat and magic = RGCM

 

So in the future you romantics should try to focus on RGCM games....

[Kimaka]

I like romance in games but it doesn't bother me that they're not in PoE. A well written romance between a NPC and the PC would take a lot of time that I would prefer be used to write more interesting quests or companions rather than romantic dialogue. Although, I'm mildly disappointed because Obsidian is the only developer that creates the type of romances in games that I enjoy the most. The romances in Kotor 2 and Nwn 2 weren't ideal or happy relationships which is something that is rarely explored in RPGs. The person you could romance could be possessive, obsessive, jealous, cruel, or just an outright unstable person. The problem with those romances, though, was that there wasn't a conclusion and they weren't fully developed.