So DA:I will have stronghold and crafting too

[Volourn]

Plus, the docs had very little to do with KOTOR OL. That was EA. I mean that was a FAKE BIO in friggin' Texas. Anyone who thinks BIO had anything real to do with KOTOR OL is lsilly. Just like ME4 is being made by a fake BIO in Montreal. In fact, without the docs, even BIO Edmonton is FAKE BIO.

 

 

 

"as without the Doctors, BioWare, Black Isle, and Obsidian wouldn't be where they are now."
 

Um.. How does BIS fit into this? I get BIO, obviously, since its their baby. And, BIO obviously helped Obsidian with the NWN2/KOTOR2 sequels to get them started. But, BIS? That broken division of a broken company that  was thrown in the trash years ago due to not being ablt to get into the future and is now back peddling whatever crap its owner is desperate to spam?

[Leferd]

BIS wouldn't have their perceived legacy without the success of BG and their adoption of the Infinity Engine.

[constantine]

Bioware lost me, no matter how polished they make their DA game to be (which is not much by the way).

 

 

 

We will soon have Pillars of Eternity, so there's no need for me to waste any more time in mediocre games that make even less mediocre attempts at being RPGs .

[Stun]

BIS wouldn't have their perceived legacy without the success of BG and their adoption of the Infinity Engine.

Well, lets not forget Fallout 1 & 2, which predate the BG games, don't use the infinity engine, and cemented BIS's name in the industry at a time when Bioware was trying to prove itself with Shattered Steel. Edited August 6, 2014 by Stun

[Bryy]

What's the matter, Bryy? Are you worried that the low budget, kickstarted title is going to completely out-perform the giant, Corporate backed Bioware 'blockbuster' in every single criteria that matters to an RPG fan? 

Stun, do you think I'm a corporate plant or something? Calm down, man.

[Stun]

Stun, do you think I'm a corporate plant or something?

No, just a bioware-can-do-no-wrong fanboy.

[Bryy]

Wherever did you get that idea? Sure, I am anticipating DA3, I post a lot in the thread, but come on. Don't start that "you never post anything bad" tomfoolery, where bad means nothing less of "I hate X and everything it stands for!".

 

I know you take stuff uber-personally, but come on, dude.

[Leferd]

 

BIS wouldn't have their perceived legacy without the success of BG and their adoption of the Infinity Engine.

Well, lets not forget Fallout 1 & 2, which predate the BG games, don't use the infinity engine, and cemented BIS's name in the industry at a time when Bioware was trying to prove itself with Shattered Steel.

The original Fallouts weren't exactly huge sellers and Interplay would have gone defunct a lot sooner if it wasn't for the success of the IE games -especially the best seller BGs. Though the Fallouts put the BIS name on the map, it were the IE games that cemented their legacy (and survival...atleast for a while).

[Stun]

Wherever did you get that idea? Sure, I am anticipating DA3, I post a lot in the thread, but come on. Don't start that "you never post anything bad" tomfoolery, where bad means nothing less of "I hate X and everything it stands for!".

 

I know you take stuff uber-personally, but come on, dude.

It's alright Bryy. There are worse insults one can hurl than to accuse someone of being a Bioware fan boy.

 

Would have been nice, though, if you had addressed the points I made in my post, instead of just latching on to the "uncalm" nature of it. But I digress. I'm not in the business of telling people how they should debate and act. I'll leave that to the experts...like you.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Stun

[BrokenMask]

Its always kinda interesting to see how classic crpg fans really hate modern Bioware.. I guess its because modern bioware doesn't seem to target crpg fans. At least if you visit their forums, there seem to be way too many romance obsessed teens. Heck, their reputation has gotten to the point that I don't think you can even find a single interview with them that doesn't contain any romance questions.

 

I personally don't think their games are horrible, the ones I have played are good for what they have tried to do. However, I find it really annoying how Bioware for some reason overhauls everything when they make new game, new aesthetics, new gameplay, writing changes and even retcons if you take a notice... All ME and DA games are so darn different from each other that its just annoying how they seem to be inable to keep things at least somewhat consistent.

 

There is also that their games are too formulaic in general which makes them feel less impressive. I mean, its like, if you play a game first time ever and you like it, you might think its great, but if you have already played many games before that it reminds you of, you are going to feel "Eh, its okay, I've played this thousand times before already". I've heard someone say that Bioware rpgs are almost a genre themselves, and while that is definitely an exaggeration, I do agree that it sometimes feels like that. Plus they retort to railroading in really annoying way espicially when it comes to sequels.

 

Sooo yeah, I wouldn't really say that bioware rpgs are bad or mediocre, they mostly range from good to average and they are mostly enjoyable. Its just that obsidian and black isle rpgs(with some exceptions) are great so in comparison they come out as even worse. I do get the bioware hate somewhat, but I guess I just hate bethesda more I mean, bethesda games are fun, but they aren't rpgs no matter what people say and it annoys me when people praise them as such. I play Bioware rpgs for different reasons than I play fallout or such so I don't have the same expectations.

Edited August 6, 2014 by BrokenMask

[BruceVC]

Wherever did you get that idea? Sure, I am anticipating DA3, I post a lot in the thread, but come on. Don't start that "you never post anything bad" tomfoolery, where bad means nothing less of "I hate X and everything it stands for!".

 

I know you take stuff uber-personally, but come on, dude.

 

I agree with this sentiment, just because a person says "I am excited about DA:I " doesn't mean you think Bioware is faultless or previous games can't be improved on. The reality is millions of people are excited about DA:I  but they are hoping its an improvement to DA 2. Its not a weird opinion or expectation

[Stun]

Its always kinda interesting to see how classic crpg fans really hate modern Bioware.. I guess its because modern bioware doesn't seem to target crpg fans.

In 5 words: YES.

 

But the "classic RPG fans" opinion does not come about in a vacuum. Bioware no longer thinks RPGs are all that relevant. It is their belief that the Genre itself cannot stand on its own and must be merged with other genres to survive, financially.

 

The result of this banal, idiotic belief is that instead of making more games like BG2, they're making more RPG-shooter Hybrids like Mass effect 2. and more MMOish games like Dragon Age 2.

 

 

Of course the Great Irony here is that right after Greg Zeschuk made that comment, Skyrim came out and sold 20 MILLION copies. Greg is now retired and out of the gaming business (HE'S become irrelevant!) And we "classic RPG fans" have turned to wildly successful Kickstarters to get our well deserved Classic RPG fixes.

 

Things have turned out well, I'd say.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Stun

[Volourn]

"Well, lets not forget Fallout 1 & 2, which predate the BG games, don't use the infinity engine, and cemented BIS's name in the industry at a time when Bioware was trying to prove itself with Shattered Steel."
 

Depending on who you asked BIS didn't make FO1 and techncially they didn't because BIS the division didn't exist at the time. Plus, if youa re talking about BIS legacy/Interplay RPG Division legacy (if youa re gonna count FO1 as a 'BIS' product), you'd have to count all the crappy  RPGs they were responsible for ie. All the trash DnD games they made. It's why FU   wanted BIo to to make a DnD game with their engine because BIS/interplay was desperate to use their DnD license after epic failures.

\

 

 

 

The greatest irony of it all is Greg Zeschuk is extremely wealthy and doesn't worry about a peon like you.

 

Of course, 'classic rpg fans' are idiots just like any other type of fan. And, I say that as someone who has ben playing rpgs for 30+ years.  Plus, we all know that Obsidian and Sawyer (the one making PE) hates 'classic RPG fans' considering he  bashes them constantly and  even has a nice pet name for them... even as he also talks about how much he likes 'classics' like Darklands.

 

,

 

"Skyrim came out and sold 20 MILLION copies."

 

Yeah, because Skyrim is totally a 'classic' RPG. And, Obsidian has sure made a lot of 'classic' RPGs as well. You know with South Park, Dungeon Seige 3, and Alpha Protocol.

 

I don't think you know what a 'classic' rpg is.

 

On top of that, different people have different definitions of what a rpg is let alone what a 'classic rpg' is. HINT: Some would classify  Skyrim or even BG as non rpgs. L0L And definitely wouldn't consider them 'classic rpgs' for durn sure.

[Bryy]

I'll leave that to the experts...like you.

All I did was say that the games are doing different things for different demographics, and your response was to say that it's just cause I was a frothing fanboy that I wrote what I did. You take things way too seriously, to the point where it's useless even replying to you. These are vijeo gaems. It's not that important.

 

That's all. 

Edited August 6, 2014 by Bryy

[Stun]

 

I'll leave that to the experts...like you.

I'm no expert but I think this is an internet forum talking about vijeo gaems.

 

Yet, your first post on this thread was an attempt to end such discussion. Edited August 6, 2014 by Stun

[Bryy]

 

 

I'll leave that to the experts...like you.

I'm no expert but I think this is an internet forum talking about vijeo gaems.

 

Yet, your first post on this thread was an attempt to end such discussion.

 

Nope.

 

Was it snarky? Yes. Did I say that the thread should end? No. Did I say other people's opinions were invalidated? No.

Did I attempt to clarify my post? Yes. 

 

Was that clarification met with open hostility? Yes.

[Stun]

 

Yet, your first post on this thread was an attempt to end such discussion.

Nope.

 

No?

 

/thread

^this was your first post. Edited August 6, 2014 by Stun

[AGX-17]

I just saw the news，Dragon Age：Inquisition will have the stronghold（or something like that）and crafting system（extremely interesting，they said）.

So, You guys may have more pressures now，genius in Obidian.  Who will win, Obsidian or Bioware? Who will design the most talented systems.

FRIGUS HISTORIAM BRO

[Bryy]

Ultimately, I think it's just too early to decide. It's not even a matter of the two games being two different animals. We don't know anything about either system, really. We just know that both Stronghold systems will be big and have minigame attributes, and as for crafting... well, we know literally next to nothing. 

[sibakruom]

But the "classic RPG fans" opinion does not come about in a vacuum. Bioware no longer thinks RPGs are all that relevant. It is their belief that the Genre itself cannot stand on its own and must be merged with other genres to survive, financially.

 

The result of this banal, idiotic belief is that instead of making more games like BG2, they're making more RPG-shooter Hybrids like Mass effect 2. and more MMOish games like Dragon Age 2.

 

 

It's my personal belief that's it's possible to make a good Role-Playing Game with almost any kind of gameplay, as long as it allows actual role-playing. Yes, that includes standard Call of Duty FPS combat. The genres aren't intrinsically incompatible, and I don't hold it against Bioware for trying something else (whether they've been successful or not is another matter).

 

On the other hand, it's also my belief that while the market for more "classic" tactical combat - like party-based real time with pause - may be smaller than for others, it's big enough to sustain itself (unless it becomes saturated, but that would be a surprise). If a game is good and has adequate exposure, people will want to play it, even if it's not a genre they're usually interested in.

[nzmccorm]

I don't think Bioware has a great track record when it comes to strongholds. If you look at how the Normandy works in ME2 or Vigil's Keep in DA:A, neither really shine. The Normandy is a constant stream of dull busywork in order to secure metal and upgrade the ship for the final battle, while Vigil's Keep is just a handful of dull fetch quests.

 

Bioware as a company seems to be a lot more interested in telling stories than setting up strong core gameplay or doing mechanically interesting things, and while that's fine for people who like that, I think that the way they sort of bolt on RPG elements is detrimental to the overall game. When you've got something badly made like their stronghold gameplay or the MMO-Style quest design in DA:O sitting right in the middle of the game it kind of casts a shadow on what you actually do well.

[Lephys]

I'm not in the business of telling people how they should debate and act.

And the joke of the day award goes to Stun.

[Larkaloke]

My personal order of BioWare games is as follows: BGII+ToB > BG >> DA:O > NWN > KotOR >> ME1 > ME2 > DAII. I've not played Jade Empire, but I'm quite certain I wouldn't be fond of it from what I know of it. I also haven't played ME3, although I'm guessing it would go in there between ME2 and DAII.

 

As with most people, it seems, adding in RPGs from other companies changes this a fair amount. Then it becomes BGII+ToB > IW > BG > IWII > PS:T* > Arcanum > ToEE >> DA:O > Morrowind > Lionheart > NWN > NWN2 > KotORII > KotOR > Skyrim > Oblivion >> ME1 > ME2 > DAII. I've not yet completed the Fallout games, though they've been on my "to play" list for quite some time, so I'm not sure where they'll fit in. Somewhere in the first or second tier, most likely.

 

* PS:T is only there as opposed to higher because it has much less replayability for me due to the nature of playing different variations of the same character rather than an entirely different character each time, as well as not having the option to create a full party. Those things, especially the first, are quite important to me, but I still consider it one of the best games I've played.

 

Its always kinda interesting to see how classic crpg fans really hate modern Bioware.. I guess its because modern bioware doesn't seem to target crpg fans.

They don't. In my opinion, in fact, they're getting closer and closer to just giving up on roleplaying altogether, as per their voiced PC/dialogue wheel (also known as not even being able to tell what your character is going to say) shenanigans. Sure, they still make games that are at least more of roleplaying games than some out there, but that's about as far as it goes any more. I'm getting the suspicion that DA:O was the last BioWare game I'm actually going to completely like.

 

At least if you visit their forums, there seem to be way too many romance obsessed teens. Heck, their reputation has gotten to the point that I don't think you can even find a single interview with them that doesn't contain any romance questions.

Yep. Not only that, but the crowd of people who seem to want an interactive movie rather than a roleplaying game.

 

I personally don't think their games are horrible, the ones I have played are good for what they have tried to do. However, I find it really annoying how Bioware for some reason overhauls everything when they make new game, new aesthetics, new gameplay, writing changes and even retcons if you take a notice... All ME and DA games are so darn different from each other that its just annoying how they seem to be inable to keep things at least somewhat consistent.

Yes. This is another thing with their recent behaviour that is very annoying to me, especially since I personally consider DA:O a vastly superior game to DAII, and ME1 a rather noticably superior one to ME2. And so far, with each game comes a little bit less control over your character. So far they're still ahead of games that have a set protagonist, but that's been slipping steadily. If they get to the set protagonist point, I won't bother watching what they're doing any more.

 

Sooo yeah, I wouldn't really say that bioware rpgs are bad or mediocre, they mostly range from good to average and they are mostly enjoyable. Its just that obsidian and black isle rpgs(with some exceptions) are great so in comparison they come out as even worse. I do get the bioware hate somewhat, but I guess I just hate bethesda more I mean, bethesda games are fun, but they aren't rpgs no matter what people say and it annoys me when people praise them as such. I play Bioware rpgs for different reasons than I play fallout or such so I don't have the same expectations.

Interesting. To me, Bethesda is actually ahead of BioWare in RPG terms recently -- although in previous times, they were not -- simply because they haven't been cracking down so much on what you can do with your character.

 

Of course, everybody wants something a bit different out of RPGs, and most everybody seems to have their own personal classification of what is and is not an RPG. For me, it's all about letting me create and control one or more characters in the game. The rest of it, especially combat and mechanics, does matter a good deal to me in terms of game enjoyment -- but has little to no effect on rather I consider something an RPG or not (although if your character's abilities clearly have no impact on the combat, I'm less likely to consider something an RPG).

[Volourn]

"However, I find it really annoying how Bioware for some reason overhauls everything when they make new game, new aesthetics, new gameplay, writing changes and even retcons if you take a notice... All ME and DA games are so darn different from each other that its just annoying how they seem to be inable to keep things at least somewhat consistent."
 

Well, people have been around for a long time would tell you that BIO used to be blasted for their games all being the 'same' and for never changing. Now the new kids are whining that they change things.

 

L0L The internet.

 

 

"To me, Bethesda is actually ahead of BioWare in RPG terms recently"

 

Bethesda has always, is, and always will be crap. They have NEVER made a RPG worthy of even a 5. The worst RPG company of all time. I'll even take Twitcher series over them. Or *shudder* ME3 or Lionheart.

[nzmccorm]

Well, people have been around for a long time would tell you that BIO used to be blasted for their games all being the 'same' and for never changing. Now the new kids are whining that they change things.

I think it's more that they're blasted for changing things badly. After they gave up on their four-hubs game structure, the resulting games felt very disconnected and janky in terms of plot. When they tried something new by focusing on a single city over a long time, they came up with Kirkwall, which was terribly bland, never really felt like time was passing, and which never really felt like a living space. Plus there's the way that ME3's ending apes Deus Ex's. They're still leaning on cliche when it comes to narrative design.

 

Which reminds me... they're also not changing the right things. They might simplify mechanics or place a bigger focus on action, but ME games still have very bland level design and their quest design still tends to be extremely linear with, at most, a binary choice when it comes to resolution. Quest design's the crux of it for me. Their quest design is pretty primitive and simplistic because it's about delivering the player to an ending with as few variables as possible. In that regard they're about on par with Bethesda, only with much less content.