The Official Romance Thread

[Darkpriest]

WHAT THE F!!! what kind of development of the romance are you talking about? 3 lines of text which are different? give me a break? There was no dating (20min of total dialog between characters?) there was simply, winking, smiling and banging in the end... like a typical club slu.... well you know what i mean.

[Stun]

No not at all, it was the development of the Romance I enjoyed which is part of my overall RP experience.

There is no development of the romance. There's just a single 'sex' scene that is completely independent of everything, save for a single dialogue that triggers it. And having sex with her has exactly ZERO effect on anything that happens afterwards.

 

If you do So for example even though she betrayed me with the Desire Demon I forgave her and continued to court her

In your head? You get the exact same "Apology accepted!" dialogue and continuance of the friendship whether you're romancing her or not. What "courting" are you talking about, exactly?

 

You say that there was no difference between being her friend or trying to Romance her with dialogue options, I wasn't aware of that because most of my conversations with her were with the intention of developing Romance

That's kinda my point, bruce. And the point of several other posters' arguments that you have dismissed away as 'unconvincing'. A well written NPC friendship is indistinguishable from a Romance, save for the absence of all the pretentious juvenile crap that a video game romance must have, like cartoon kissing and pixel sex so the horny teen fanbase can get their hard-ons, which the marketing department pie charts suggest is an effective way to boost game sales. Edited July 12, 2014 by Stun

[BruceVC]

 

No not at all, it was the development of the Romance I enjoyed which is part of my overall RP experience.

There is no development of the romance. There's just a single 'sex' scene that is completely independent of everything, save for a single dialogue that triggers it. And having sex with her has exactly ZERO effect on anything that happens afterwards.

 

If you do So for example even though she betrayed me with the Desire Demon I forgave her and continued to court her

In your head? You get the exact same "Apology accepted!" dialogue and continuance of the friendship whether you're romancing her or not. What "courting" are you talking about, exactly?

 

You say that there was no difference between being her friend or trying to Romance her with dialogue options, I wasn't aware of that because most of my conversations with her were with the intention of developing Romance

That's kinda my point, bruce. And the point of several other posters' arguments that you have dismissed away as 'unconvincing'. A well written NPC friendship is indistinguishable from a Romance, save for the absence of all the pretentious juvenile crap that a video game romance must have, like cartoon kissing and pixel sex so the horny teen fanbase can get their hard-ons, which the marketing department pie charts suggest is an effective way to boost game sales.

 

 

No offense Stun but it seems that the difference between you and me is you lack imagination during a RPG. My RP experience is not defined by a few lines of text or only what the games presents to me. When I explore a tomb, fight a dragon or Romance someone in the game my idea of what is happening is not just what I see in the game, its what I RP..its what I imagine..yes in my head,

 

So for example when Isabella betrayed me you saw the game offering the same "apology accepted". I saw this totally differently, in my head, and Isabella became more committed to our relationship. Of course I need a foundation, in other words if there are no Romance options or party interaction I can't create one

 

In BG2 when you travel to the Drow city your experience about the city is limited around what you see , like the Aboleth that is imprisoned. But for me I was imagining many other things that did exist in the city. They weren't actually there in the game but I could still RP the experience.  

 

The same principle applies to Romance and exploring a Romance arc. End of the day you are over analysing what the game doesn't offer, there is much more to an RPG than just what you can see and what the developers can present.

[Namutree]

2 things. First, It'd be more accurate to say that the only people who liked the way Romances were implemented in DA2 were the promancers, and they tend to not be very picky when it comes to romances. Their motto is "any inclusion of a romance in a video game is a good thing", yes? Tell me I'm wrong.

 

Second, Isabela's story and motives are irrespective of her romance. They're part of the game's main plot, and ALL of it will occur regardless of whether you romance her. So no. You can't cite it as proof of anything.

I like romance in some games, but not in others. In the Mass Effect series it was pretty bad. They really should have focused on quality over quantity in that case. Somehow people liked them, but I felt I was on the love boat; not the Normandy. If Obsidian chooses to add romance to poe2 I hope they do so in an interesting and mature way.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Namutree

[Stun]

No offense Stun but it seems that the difference between you and me is you lack imagination during a RPG. My RP experience is not defined by a few lines of text or only what the games presents to me. When I explore a tomb, fight a dragon or Romance someone in the game my idea of what is happening is not just what I see in the game, its what I RP..its what I imagine..yes in my head,

Oh, is that so?

 

In that case, what's the point of asking for Romances in PoE? Can't you people just imagine they exist and spare us the multi-thread whining?

Edited July 12, 2014 by Stun

[Nonek]

When I play let's pretend with the kids I don't need a computer.

 

But seriously putting forward Isabella as a good romance option is really harming your cause promancers, she's an incompetent, idiot, unmotivated slave who can't even dress herself appropriately for combat or climate, and comes and goes for years at a time at anothers bidding. And she can only be "fixed" by the protagonists phallus, tongue or whatever, which is rather demeaning in and of itself. A blow up doll would have a better personality and writing, and you'd be spared the cringeworthy Bioware "humour" as well as the over emotional idiocy.

 

I'd choose a better proponent personally, as i'm yet to see an argument for the feature that is not silly or ridiculous, such as the idiotic deep interactions only arise from romances.

[BruceVC]

 

No offense Stun but it seems that the difference between you and me is you lack imagination during a RPG. My RP experience is not defined by a few lines of text or only what the games presents to me. When I explore a tomb, fight a dragon or Romance someone in the game my idea of what is happening is not just what I see in the game, its what I RP..its what I imagine..yes in my head,

Oh, is that so?

 

In that case, what's the point of asking for Romances in PoE? Can't you promancers just imagine they exist and spare us the multi-thread whining?

 

 

 

I knew you were going to ask that, but you must remember something important. I did say I need a foundation to build my RP experience so for me this Romance discussion is about raising the importance of Romance and also generating awareness so hopefully Obsidian includes them in PoE 2

[BruceVC]

When I play let's pretend with the kids I don't need a computer.

 

But seriously putting forward Isabella as a good romance option is really harming your cause promancers, she's an incompetent, idiot, unmotivated slave who can't even dress herself appropriately for combat or climate, and comes and goes for years at a time at anothers bidding. And she can only be "fixed" by the protagonists phallus, tongue or whatever, which is rather demeaning in and of itself. A blow up doll would have a better personality and writing, and you'd be spared the cringeworthy Bioware "humour" as well as the over emotional idiocy.

 

I'd choose a better proponent personally, as i'm yet to see an argument for the feature that is not silly or ridiculous, such as the idiotic deep interactions only arise from romances.

 

No offense Nonek but you have never liked Isabella, your opinion is therefore egregiously bias and we have to treat you as hostile witness..sorry, nothing personal

[Nonek]

Biased is the word you're looking for Bruce.

 

Try a better fact based defense and better inspiration old boy, my problems with the character arise from her portrayal and should be clearly evident to any unbiased view, they can't be refuted.

 

Edit: If I were you i'd put forward Jahiera, Ravel, Kreia and a few others of similarly sterling quality, Isabella is a preposterous character aimed squarely at the lowest common denominator.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Nonek

[PrimeJunta]

@BruceVC Nono, this thread is here to demonstrate how much the Obs fanbase hates romance so we can make sure they won't include it in PoE2.

 

Perhaps we can resolve this with a dance-off. 

 

 

vs 

 

[BruceVC]

Biased is the word your looking for Bruce.

 

Try a better fact based defense and better inspiration old boy, my problems with the character arise from her portrayal and should be clearly evident to any unbiased view, they can't be refuted.

 

You cheeky..you know that

 

But you are correct, I meant to say biased

 

But please understand I don't make the rules..I merely adhere to them

 

In a court where only Stun or I could be right and the decision was based on fact you cant possibly see yourself as objective towards Isabella? Its clear you are biased...sorry

[Nonek]

No Bruce i'm objective, you're presenting the biased viewpoint for romance and Stun against, I merely provide an ocassional ridiculous jape or make a point. I thought the relationships with Ravel and Kreia were extremely well done, thematically potent and well integrated, i'd be for such content. I'd be against objectively poorly made characters such as Isabella, and by putting her forward you harm your own cause.

 

Edit: Think about your cause and your argument, then present with pertinent and favourable evidence, preferably garnered from first hand experience of the subject.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Nonek

[Stun]

 

I knew you were going to ask that, but you must remember something important. I did say I need a foundation to build my RP experience so for me this Romance discussion is about raising the importance of Romance and also generating awareness so hopefully Obsidian includes them in PoE 2

Romances aren't important for RPGs. Nor is anyone at Obsidian unaware of their existence, So if this is some crusade or campaign of yours, it died before it began.

 

If Obsidian does decide to do romances for PoE2, it will not be because of anything being discussed on this thread, because there's nothing here that they haven't already seen 10,000 times.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Stun

[anameforobsidian]

When I play let's pretend with the kids I don't need a computer.

 

But seriously putting forward Isabella as a good romance option is really harming your cause promancers, she's an incompetent, idiot, unmotivated slave who can't even dress herself appropriately for combat or climate, and comes and goes for years at a time at anothers bidding. And she can only be "fixed" by the protagonists phallus, tongue or whatever, which is rather demeaning in and of itself. A blow up doll would have a better personality and writing, and you'd be spared the cringeworthy Bioware "humour" as well as the over emotional idiocy.

 

I'd choose a better proponent personally, as i'm yet to see an argument for the feature that is not silly or ridiculous, such as the idiotic deep interactions only arise from romances.

 

I think romances can be done well and poorly, and I certainly am not zealous about keeping romantic / erotic content from a game.  However, all I saw of Dragon Age II was particularly terrible in this regard.  It relied waaaaay too much on trope in general, and romances in particular.  Isabella in particular lacks any consistent set of goals or motivation, and orbits around player decisions.

 

That said, Dragon Age II removed one of the age old problems of romance in games: the vaguely rape-y aspect of it.  Since characters in rpgs are really just systems and particularly simple systems at that, and systems can be gamed / have no free will, the only person with agency is the player.  This means the player is free to create conditions where the character cannot refuse sex with the player, which has some pretty dark undertones.  Dragon Age II solved this problem by removing the vast majority of player agency; since both characters are a collection of binary switches it's romance is more like a movie and less like a game.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

That said, Dragon Age II removed one of the age old problems of romance in games: the vaguely rape-y aspect of it.  Since characters in rpgs are really just systems and particularly simple systems at that, and systems can be gamed / have no free will, the only person with agency is the player.  This means the player is free to create conditions where the character cannot refuse sex with the player, which has some pretty dark undertones. 

 

 

Now that's an interesting viewpoint I haven't considered before.

[TMZuk]

I believe that for me it boils down to choice and reactivity.

 

CRPGs, unlike PnP RPGs, are limited by the writing. That is of course one reason why VA has ruined so many of the CRPGs of the past decade. It limits the amount of dialogue possible even more. Back in the nineties, when Bethesda published TES2: Daggerfall, I was awestruck. The freedom of the game was incredible, my character could go anywhere and do anything... I thought. After playing it a lot, I came to realize that in fact I could basically interact with the world in two manners; Kill stuff and steal stuff. I wanted more! I wanted to talk to people. To say: "You're a jerk", "you're all right" or "I think I might like you, a lot!"

 

That was what I was used to from PnP games, and gradually poor Daggerfall lost it's luster, and I've never been able to get into a TES game after that.

 

Then came Fallout 2, PS:T. and BG2. Fallout 2 had perhaps the greatest amount of freedom, combined with entertaining interaction that any cRPG has ever had. But they were all good and that, of course, got my hopes up that future CRPGs would continue that trend. As we all know, they didn't. Consoles and voice acting changed all that.

 

So of course I was - and am - hyped for PoE. But the message that they had no options for romantic involvment was a disappointment, because it in my opinion means that there's less choices and manners to interact with the world in and consequently less reactivity. If I believe my character would be attracted to an NPC or a Companion, I'd like the option for my character to say that to be present. And where it could have gone to a new level would of course have been if the NPC then played the PC. Or cheated on him/her. Or took the initiative. All manners of intersting options could have been present.

 

That's the core of my disappointment.

[Naesh]

One thing i have concluded from reading this thread is that randomizing the npc responses to some extent would make them feel more alive.

[Silent Winter]

@BruceVC Nono, this thread is here to demonstrate how much the Obs fanbase hates romance so we can make sure they won't include it in PoE2.

 

Perhaps we can resolve this with a dance-off. 

Playing them both at the same time and hearing the tango music wihile watching the Haka video is a fantastic contrast

[BruceVC]

No Bruce i'm objective, you're presenting the biased viewpoint for romance and Stun against, I merely provide an ocassional ridiculous jape or make a point. I thought the relationships with Ravel and Kreia were extremely well done, thematically potent and well integrated, i'd be for such content. I'd be against objectively poorly made characters such as Isabella, and by putting her forward you harm your own cause.

 

Edit: Think about your cause and your argument, then present with pertinent and favourable evidence, preferably garnered from first hand experience of the subject.

 

I want to make another observation, I have noticed a lot of criticism from many people towards Isabella. And it makes me question why? Why single out Isabella constantly when it comes to diatribe against the various DA2 characters. And the attacks against her are often personal, they are not based on logic

 

There are several possible reasons for this but one reason is the fact that Isabella challengers the predefined  gender roles that people are comfortable with. Isabella is a confident, vociferous and sexually driven person. She is not ashamed to talk about sex openly and how she can use sex to further her aims. She is totally liberated and its great to see

 

So some people are not comfortable with this type of female personality, they prefer the meek and weak archetypical  1960's house wife. Isabella's confidence is seen as vacuous, annoying  and unrealistic.

 

But this is really about the positioning of gender roles and what people expect. And I'm NOT saying this is why you don't like her. You have explained before but this is about why others don't like her

[Nonek]

An incompetent idiot slave challenges gender roles? Come now Bruce that's just wishful thinking, she is just a badly written and poorly concieved character appealing only to the lowest common denominator. If you wish for a character whom challenges a gender role then look at Lady Grace, the owner of the Brothel for Slaking Intellectual Lusts, she challenges not just gender roles but her very nature as a Succubus.

 

The argument that Isabella is challenging gender roles by being too stupid to wear clothing appropriate to the climate (or wearing armour in a city that has combat every ten feet and is mainly inhabited by bandits) is silly in the extreme. One does not have to dress illogically to act sexually aggressive, or be so obsessed by sex that it's ones only salient point of conversation. It's good that people criticise such poorly made characters as all of the cast in DA2, as hopefully Bioware will hire some talented writers to make substantive and complicated characters, rather than these one note caricatures.

 

Edit: If you want a liberated, free and powerful female role model look at Kreia, whom does not have to bother with gender, sex or any other transitory nonsense. She doesn't feel the need to spout cutesy inanities every second, or take part in cringeworthy "banter," as she pursues a philosophy and a goal that is far more important, moral and substantive. And she does it while spitting on the use of open force and vulgar displays of aggression, that is a truly liberated woman, whom rejects societal and religious roles to pursue her truth.

 

Isabella is just a slave whom comes and goes at the bidding of others, and can do nothing herself, not even dress appropriately for the weather, when she comes from much warmer climes. She's a joke.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Nonek

[Stun]

I don't know if I should be proud or pathetically ashamed at the fact that I'm the only one on this thread who has correctly spelled Isabela's name. lol

 

I want to make another observation, I have noticed a lot of criticism from many people towards Isabella. And it makes me question why? Why single out Isabella constantly when it comes to diatribe against the various DA2 characters. And the attacks against her are often personal, they are not based on logic.

Oh, it's definitely not my intention to single her out from all the other DA2 NPCs, since each and every one of them is a poorly written caricature...even Varric (who for some reason I still haven't figured out, tends to get a pass from DA2 critics, even though he's a classic case study on terrible writing and misuse of plot devices) I'm only focusing on her because she was the specific DA2 romance you cited.

 

There are several possible reasons for this but one reason is the fact that Isabella challengers the predefined gender roles that people are comfortable with. Isabella is a confident, vociferous and sexually driven person. She is not ashamed to talk about sex openly and how she can use sex to further her aims. She is totally liberated and its great to see

 

So some people are not comfortable with this type of female personality, they prefer the meek and weak archetypical 1960's house wife. Isabella's confidence is seen as vacuous, annoying and unrealistic.

Say what? No, that's not it at all. First, I wouldn't call having a totally unsubtle, pound-you-over-the-head-with-it slutty personality as "liberated". lol Second, she's hardly confident. In Act 2 she runs away from her problems instead of facing them. In act 3, and in typical, tiresome Bioware fashion, you must play the role of high school guidance councilor to get her back in your party. She sulks and broods in the corner of a bar and you have to cheer her up. Then she calls herself a failure and you have to convince her she's not.

 

Are you comprehending this, Bruce? Or was DA2 your first RPG? Because this is all sleep-inducing cliché. Isabela is nothing but a mish mash of several previous Bioware NPCs. She does not posess a single unique personality feature. She's got Morrigan's sensuality but lacks her diabolical mind. She's got Alistair's low self esteem but lacks his compassionate side. She's got Lelianna's Rogish nature, but lacks her innocent exterior. She feels sorry for herself just like Aerie does, but she lacks Aerie's intelligence. She Loves sex as much as Viconia, but lacks the anger, bloodlust, and backstory that makes Viconia so cool.

 

Bioware created her for no reason but to add a teen-centric sexual side to a remarkably unsexy game.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Stun

[Hiro Protagonist II]

One thing i have concluded from reading this thread is that randomizing the npc responses to some extent would make them feel more alive.

 

It's interesting that Bruce likes your suggestion with you bringing up this random response type scenario, because I already brought something like this up in one of the old romance threads. 

 

I wonder what a romance would be like if there was no pre-determined dialogue tree and the game just selected random dialogue options. Would you get annoyed if the npc you're romancing said the same thing 50 times and it comes across as nagging?

[BruceVC]

An incompetent idiot slave challenges gender roles? Come now Bruce that's just wishful thinking, she is just a badly written and poorly concieved character appealing only to the lowest common denominator. If you wish for a character whom challenges a gender role then look at Lady Grace, the owner of the Brothel for Slaking Intellectual Lusts, she challenges not just gender roles but her very nature as a Succubus.

 

The argument that Isabella is challenging gender roles by being too stupid to wear clothing appropriate to the climate (or wearing armour in a city that has combat every ten feet and is mainly inhabited by bandits) is silly in the extreme. One does not have to dress illogically to act sexually aggressive, or be so obsessed by sex that it's ones only salient point of conversation. It's good that people criticise such poorly made characters as all of the cast in DA2, as hopefully Bioware will hire some talented writers to make substantive and complicated characters, rather than these one note caricatures.

 

Edit: If you want a liberated, free and powerful female role model look at Kreia, whom does not have to bother with gender, sex or any other transitory nonsense. She doesn't feel the need to spout cutesy inanities every second, or take part in cringeworthy "banter," as she pursues a philosophy and a goal that is far more important, moral and substantive. And she does it while spitting on the use of open force and vulgar displays of aggression, that is a truly liberated woman, whom rejects societal and religious roles to pursue her truth.

 

Isabella is just a slave whom comes and goes at the bidding of others, and can do nothing herself, not even dress appropriately for the weather, when she comes from much warmer climes. She's a joke.

 

Nonek before I make my point I want to say something. I enjoy debating with you because you have the ability to separate your emotions from the debate, in other words even if you think someone is being personal you don't normally dwell on that. You make your point based on the facts as you understand them. That is what I always try to do, I attack the argument..not the person ( of course I don't always get this right)

 

So even though it may seem like I'm targeting your perspective I'm not, I'm disagreeing with you because I'm confident you can deal with my point without getting offended.

 

Saying all that let me ask you  an important question, I have noticed when it comes to your dislike of Isabella why is you always mention her clothes? If you disagree with me can you give me one example where you single out any character from Bioware where you make a point of pointing out there attire as one of the reasons you dislike the personality?

 

 

I'll explain later why this is relevant

[PrimeJunta]

If I may... I haven't played DA2, but I am playing ME2, and I've developed a quite a dislike for Miranda, and a part of that has got to be the fact that she goes into battle wearing apparently nothing but stripper pumps and body paint. Blatant pandering is blatant. In highly visual games like what BioWare has been doing since Jade Empire, the way a character looks and what she wears is a big part of her portrayal.

[Nonek]

Saying all that let me ask you  an important question, I have noticed when it comes to your dislike of Isabella why is you always mention her clothes? If you disagree with me can you give me one example where you single out any character from Bioware where you make a point of pointing out there attire as one of the reasons you dislike the personality?

 

 

Isabella can't even dress herself appropriately for the climate (when she comes from a much warmer climate) or combat (when she faces a melee every ten feet) and that is just one of the reasons why I dislike her, apart from being an unmotivated, incompetent slave. This is simply factual.

 

Aveline I dsilike despite the fact she wears (artistically hideous Bioware designed) full armour because she's incompetent at her job, abandons it on a whim and needs the Protagonist to hold her hand during a date, like she's a blushing maid. The game tells you repeatedly that she's strong, but only shows you another unmotivated, incompetent slave.

 

Much the same can be said for all of the other characters, but it was you who raised Isabella as the type of romance to be aiming for, I was merely suggesting that you try far better written characters Bruce, as you're hurting your own cause. If you're trying to insinuate that I obsess over clothing, no I observe poor design and writing as any critical mind should.

 

Edit: Sarevok's spiky armour impractical, Varrik's bare chest idiotic, most of the women of Mass Effect pandering, Flemeth going from a crazy old woman to an obvious abomination Milf, NWN everything hideous and a clear step down from its predecessors, Jedi not wearing armour silly with no good reason, basically all of the art design of Bioware has been tremendously gaudy and ugly lately.

 

I could go on.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Nonek