Amentep Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I.e., I'm all for more Deionarra, but dead against more Aerie. I'm not sure Eternity could take an Aerie anyhow. Something about jamming the eventual baby-as-inventory-item into the deep stash just seems morally wrong. 7 I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot! ~ Ro-Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stun Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) I'm not sure Eternity could take an Aerie anyhow. Something about jamming the eventual baby-as-inventory-item into the deep stash just seems morally wrong. Rofl! Sorry that's not an answer that makes sense to me,I don't care, Bruce. maybe you can give me an example of a game where this has been implemented before?That would kinda defeat the purpose, wouldn't it. Part of its appeal would be that it's something fresh and totally unlike anything ever done before in a video game. But if you're in desperate need of a mental image... imagine Sandal meets Broodmother, with Planescape torment-like dialogue choice screens for its delivery system. Edited July 17, 2014 by Stun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I'm not sure Eternity could take an Aerie anyhow. Something about jamming the eventual baby-as-inventory-item into the deep stash just seems morally wrong. Rofl! Sorry that's not an answer that makes sense to me,I don't care, Bruce. maybe you can give me an example of a game where this has been implemented before?That would kinda defeat the purpose, wouldn't it. Part of its appeal would be that it's something fresh and totally unlike anything ever done before in a video game. But if you're in desperate need of a mental image... imagine Sandal meets Broodmother, with Planescape torment-like dialogue choice screens for its delivery system. That's what I thought, your idea of a good Romance arc is something that doesn't exist and hasn't ever been implemented before. You may as well suggest your idea of a good Romance arc is no Romance because for all practical purposes that's what you are suggesting and this is suppose to be a thread where we discuss the merits of Romance Sorry if I sound rude but once again I'm just being honest "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leferd Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Can you answer the question, what would be an acceptable Romance arc in a RPG?One that deliberately mocks the entire concept of video game romances... and does it via dry wit.Interestingly enough, Obsidian has the perfect writer on their staff for such an undertaking. Chris Avellone. Actually, didn't Avellone already do that? Specifically Alpha Protocol's hatemance with Sie. You antagonize her all game and then in a reversal, she rapes you in a bondage situation when you are tied up. "Things are funny...are comedic, because they mix the real with the absurd." - Buzz Aldrin."P-O-T-A-T-O-E" - Dan Quayle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeJunta Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 this is suppose to be a thread where we discuss the merits of Romance Not just the merits, @BruceVC. Drawbacks are also fair game. 3 I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tajerio Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) And even Deionarra wasn't so much a romance as it was a plot device designed to instill emotions like guilt and regret, rather than love or affection. It was a gimmick too, but it gets a pass because it was a brilliant plot tool. Regret and guilt are quite difficult to implement correctly in a video game. This is what I mean by different definitions. Deionarra was the only plot device in any cRPG I've played that comes close to my understanding of 'romance' in the classical, literary sense. She, however, has nothing to do with 'romance' in the dating-game/harem-anime/dime-store-romance-novel sense. So at least some of us may be talking at cross-purposes. I.e., I'm all for more Deionarra, but dead against more Aerie. I'm more or less in agreement with this. Romance as story in a game can work (as in PS:T), whereas romance as a gameplay element really doesn't (BioWare games). The problem with executing the first, though, is twofold. First, for a romance not to make me cringe, in any medium, the surrounding story has to be good, and the romance has to be executed at an even higher level than the rest of the story. In terms of RPGs, this is an issue because I've only played two that I thought had good story (PS:T and MotB). Those games both had romances in the story that made sense (TNO & Deionarra, Akachi and his beloved), though the MotB one is weaker I think, and the game sadly does employ romance as a bit of a gameplay element as well. But if a game with a merely enjoyable story tried it, like, say, a BG2? Nope nope nope. Not gonna work. Second, romance as story nearly demands that the PC be a fixed character. I dislike this deeply, because one of the joys for me of an RPG is creating my own character. That's why the heinous "mature" romance with Triss in the Witcher drives me bananas (well, part of the reason anyway). I don't have a good story hook as to why I should care about her, because the story flat out just isn't that good, and consequently she just pisses me off. PS:T only gets away with this by virtue of being incredibly good, and also not forcing me in the present to actually do anything about Deionarra at all. MotB takes the other route and has the romance as story not necessarily directly involve you, the PC, per se, but still be central to your story. Basically, if there's gonna be romance in your game, it can't be gameplay. It's gotta be story, and it's gotta be damn good story too. Edited July 17, 2014 by tajerio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stun Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) That's what I thought, your idea of a good Romance arc is something that doesn't exist and hasn't ever been implemented before. You may as well suggest your idea of a good Romance arc is no Romance because for all practical purposes that's what you are suggesting and this is suppose to be a thread where we discuss the merits of Romance Sorry if I sound rude but once again I'm just being honest I am gobsmacked. Ok, let me see if I can sum up this discussion we're having. 1) I spend the better part of 12 pages condemning the very concept of video game romances. 2) You then ask me to describe a romance that I would like to see in a video game. 3) I repeat my assertions that I dislike the very concept of video game romances. 4) You insist that I do it anyway 5) So I describe a scenario of a "romance" who's sole purpose is to be a deliberate mockery of video game romances 6) In a fit of (admitted) rudeness, you conclude that. . . . .I must be one of those guys who does not like video game romances. Damn, I hate it when I get "gotcha'ed". LOL Edited July 17, 2014 by Stun 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 That's what I thought, your idea of a good Romance arc is something that doesn't exist and hasn't ever been implemented before. You may as well suggest your idea of a good Romance arc is no Romance because for all practical purposes that's what you are suggesting and this is suppose to be a thread where we discuss the merits of Romance Sorry if I sound rude but once again I'm just being honest I am gobsmacked. Ok, let me see if I can sum up this discussion we're having. 1) I spend the better part of 12 pages condemning the very concept of video game romances. 2) You then ask me to describe a romance that I would like to see in a video game. 3) I repeat my assertions that I dislike the very concept of video game romances. 4) You insist that I do it anyway 5) So I describe a scenario of a "romance" who's sole purpose is to be a deliberate mockery of video game romances 6) In a fit of (admitted) rudeness, you conclude that. . . . .I must be one of those guys who does not like video game romances. Damn, I hate it when I get "gotcha'ed". LOL Fair enough, good points I have to say your post is one of the funniest posts I have read in a while, I do see the contradictions and pointlessness in what I was asking ... 1 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redneckdevil Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) Depending on the type of "atmosphere" the game has im gonna say the type of romance in a game i would be ok with or like to see is the type of "trying to find but never getting". Ill explain. I would rather have one where through story, dialogue, or notes or etc etc we learn about or we learn more about someone. A lil breadcrumb trail in which we can learn more and even influencing said persons life for better or for worse. After we are engaged in the breadcrumb trail because we are facinated and have a desire to interact with or try to get, at the end of the breadcrumb trail we find that we cannot have said person. Either they be dead, happily marriaged, involved with something that so important they do not have the time nor pleasure to be involved with someone, we cannot have said person. Said person could even not want anything to do with us, or could wish they could be with us but due to circumstances it is just a dream that cant be optained. hell id even favor in the lil breadcrumb trail said person died by our actions even if we didnt know. Like someone whos a high class theif who made alot of enemies but we made a mistake somehwere or got swindled by someons that when we finally find said person, they died because we lead the enemies to them. I guess im ok with getting a chance to "chase" but not getting. That way we can imagine what coulda been and instead of getting disappointed in what is hardcoded. Edited July 17, 2014 by redneckdevil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Depending on the type of "atmosphere" the game has im gonna say the type of romance in a game i would be ok with or like to see is the type of "trying to find but never getting". Ill explain. I would rather have one where through story, dialogue, or notes or etc etc we learn about or we learn more about someone. A lil breadcrumb trail in which we can learn more and even influencing said persons life for better or for worse. After we are engaged in the breadcrumb trail because we are facinated and have a desire to interact with or try to get, at the end of the breadcrumb trail we find that we cannot have said person. Either they be dead, happily marriaged, involved with something that so important they do not have the time nor pleasure to be involved with someone, we cannot have said person. Said person could even not want anything to do with us, or could wish they could be with us but due to circumstances it is just a dream that cant be optained. hell id even favor in the lil breadcrumb trail said person died by our actions even if we didnt know. Like someone whos a high class theif who made alot of enemies but we made a mistake somehwere or got swindled by someons that when we finally find said person, they died because we lead the enemies to them. I guess im ok with getting a chance to "chase" but not getting. That way we can imagine what coulda been and instead of getting disappointed in what is hardcoded. That's a good post and an interesting Romance idea "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amentep Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I think its important - if you were to include a romance - to make each as unique as the NPC. Maybe you can flirt with the person but if goes nowhere. Maybe you build a relationship but s/he leaves you because you keep letting him/her get defeated on the battlefield. Maybe they do flirt with you to steal your stuff. Maybe it'll only really just be getting started by the end of the game with the idea the characters have a future together in the post-game. So far the examples we've had tend to follow the same rhythms and beats and tend to be "get a sex scene before the final fight" other than BG2 which is more like "get a 'fade to black' sex scene, randomly and sometimes in ways and places that don't make sense" as I recall. 4 I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot! ~ Ro-Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valorian Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Love is so popular! These threads reach abnormal lengths everywhere. And I just lost my Obsiromance-thread virginity too. <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lephys Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) Your absurd penicillin example assumes a field of study where progress is constantly being made. Problem: Attempts over the last 25 years to implement *good* romances in video games has not shown a shred of progress. So I'll ask again: what makes you think tomorrow's video game romances will succeed? Unlike video game development, which hasn't seen any progress since the Atari 2600? Problem: You're assuming they were good attempts, AND that their goal was to implement good romance (and not just "this'll draw in a good portion of people who just like romance content for the sake of romance content" attempts.) If Bioware romances are attempts to make "good" romances, I'd sure hate to see half-arsed attempts. Next you'll tell me that the recent Streak of MMOs has exhausted all possible design possibilities for MMOs. You know, because they've all been so drastically varied. @PieSnatcher I have the feeling there's a bit of talking-past-each-other going on here too. Perhaps people are using somewhat different definitions of 'romance.' I, for example, am categorically opposed to 'romance as dating game,' as in BG2, NWN2, the ME's, the DA's, and so on. However, I am not categorically opposed to 'romance as central plot driver,' as in Planescape: Torment. You may be right about people using different definitions, Junta. However, no one's forcing anyone to arbitrarily apply an overly specific meaning to the word as it gets typed by others' fingers. I mean, I know all my posts are only like 3 words long, so it's really hard to discern any specifics from the sea of ambiguity I represent. But, surely, someone in here has elaborated at least a tiny extent on what they mean. Edited July 17, 2014 by Lephys Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stun Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Problem: You're assuming they were good attempts, AND that their goal was to implement good romance (and not just "this'll draw in a good portion of people who just like romance content for the sake of romance content" attempts.) If Bioware romances are attempts to make "good" romances, I'd sure hate to see half-arsed attempts. Oh, I don't disagree with the notion that maybe 100% of all video game romances over the past 25 years have been (intentionally) bad efforts to implement the concept itself, and that's why they all suck. But I doubt the legions of promancers on BSN and elsewhere will agree with such a notion. And it doesn't change the point anyway. If the devs aren't even trying to do better, then how can we expect the next game's romances to be any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Protagonist II Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) Unlike video game development, which hasn't seen any progress since the Atari 2600? Don't confuse the technological advances in computer video games over the last 35 years to a specific part of game development implementation. Just because some implementations have been better doesn't mean all are. While going from games like Doom to Dark Forces and the ability to look up and down have been great improvements in game development, it doesn't mean that all aspects of game development have improved over those years. Edited July 18, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infiltrator_SF Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) I think people need to differentiate between having a romance main plot (starcraft) and subplot (PST). It's far more difficult to execute a love story in an environment where it doesn't have to happen at all, and make it work without killing the suspension of disbelief. It's obvious the love story of PoE would have to be a subplot, of course, and if it can't take place over the majority of the game to make it believable, than I'd rather not have it in an expansion/DLC, the window is too short for anything realistic to happen. I say realistic, because if you look at Bioware has been doing under EA's boot is laughable at best, the Dragon Age "romances" that can be escalated within 15 minutes into awkward sex scenes are vomit-inducing at best. Same goes for Mass Effect. I just didn't feel anything there, too lilttle happened for me to believe characters had any sort of connection, this was taken even further in ME2. I think the BG2/PST romances were good, though annah/aerie were approaching teenage girl fantasies. I think people should read some good books instead of watching action movies when they wanted to get an inspiration for a good love story. Edited July 18, 2014 by Infiltrator_SF 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadySands Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Not a direct response to anyone in particular but reading a lot of these replies about what is believable and what makes sense don't really add up for me. I disagree that there needs to be long build up or slow progression over the course of the game but maybe I'm in the amoral minority who has had one night stands and has also had a few of those actually lead to something more. It may not be capital R "Romance" but if we're talking sex and relationships I can speak from my experience in the military that some people are willing to risk quite a lot to find some connection and comfort when death can literally come from above at any moment. So I also disagree that people fighting for their lives won't occasionally (or quite often) make time to express their feelings or more likely hop on the good foot and do the bad thing That said, if it's forced or just plain badly done then of course it's not going to work but that's not exactly a revelation since that goes for most things Don't get me wrong, I don't want some of the BSN element over here either but I'm not opposed to romance for those reasons I've stated 1 Free games updated 3/4/21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infiltrator_SF Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) Not a direct response to anyone in particular but reading a lot of these replies about what is believable and what makes sense don't really add up for me. I disagree that there needs to be long build up or slow progression over the course of the game but maybe I'm in the amoral minority who has had one night stands and has also had a few of those actually lead to something more. It may not be capital R "Romance" but if we're talking sex and relationships I can speak from my experience in the military that some people are willing to risk quite a lot to find some connection and comfort when death can literally come from above at any moment. So I also disagree that people fighting for their lives won't occasionally (or quite often) make time to express their feelings or more likely hop on the good foot and do the bad thing That said, if it's forced or just plain badly done then of course it's not going to work but that's not exactly a revelation since that goes for most things Don't get me wrong, I don't want some of the BSN element over here either but I'm not opposed to romance for those reasons I've stated One night stands aren't romances though, just consensual one-time sex. Can you imagine having that with a party member? Obsidian would have their hands full with awkward dialogue choices for the remainder of the adventure. In witcher, these worked, but were of course as mundane and superficial as they can get - and deprived the central plot romance from having any sort of weight. I agree that one-night stands can evolve into something in real life, but in a fantasy game that has them as a subplot at that? I don't think it's plausible. Edited July 18, 2014 by Infiltrator_SF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) Not a direct response to anyone in particular but reading a lot of these replies about what is believable and what makes sense don't really add up for me. I disagree that there needs to be long build up or slow progression over the course of the game but maybe I'm in the amoral minority who has had one night stands and has also had a few of those actually lead to something more. It may not be capital R "Romance" but if we're talking sex and relationships I can speak from my experience in the military that some people are willing to risk quite a lot to find some connection and comfort when death can literally come from above at any moment. So I also disagree that people fighting for their lives won't occasionally (or quite often) make time to express their feelings or more likely hop on the good foot and do the bad thing That said, if it's forced or just plain badly done then of course it's not going to work but that's not exactly a revelation since that goes for most things Don't get me wrong, I don't want some of the BSN element over here either but I'm not opposed to romance for those reasons I've stated You have raised a good point and one that I have often raised in the justification for Romance in a RPG and I want to add to your point. It is not only completely reasonable but expected that when people face death or dangerous circumstances many people do turn to sexual intimacy as a coping mechanism So in your typical RPG adventure where you have this party of people trying to save the world or facing some diabolical and powerful demigod where everyday could be there last why wouldn't Romance naturally develop? Especially if people are attracted to each other? This to me is one of the obvious reason to include Romance from a realism perspective. Edited July 18, 2014 by BruceVC "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 One night stands aren't romances though, just consensual one-time sex. Can you imagine having that with a party member? Obsidian would have their hands full with awkward dialogue choices for the remainder of the adventure. In witcher, these worked, but were of course as mundane and superficial as they can get - and deprived the central plot romance from having any sort of weight. Erm... how exactly? "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infiltrator_SF Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 One night stands aren't romances though, just consensual one-time sex. Can you imagine having that with a party member? Obsidian would have their hands full with awkward dialogue choices for the remainder of the adventure. In witcher, these worked, but were of course as mundane and superficial as they can get - and deprived the central plot romance from having any sort of weight. Erm... how exactly? A bit offtopic, but I just couldn't picture Geralt caring that much about Triss as the developers might have tried him to be. That said, TW series is one of my top 10 games ever, and that's no small feat considering I've played all the best games in what I consider the "golden" age of PC gaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrayAngel Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Seriously this topic is still on there will by no Romance in PoE so get over it i count for mods to make some good romance into game like in BG2 some where great and it make me play it many more time, some where terrible but few where great and NPC mod to ID1 where good too. For the people that against the romance in PoE it not Bioware game you can say no and at least for me it can give new perspective of gameplay. For proromancers be real Obsidian is not making the best romance so it somewhat good that there will not be one:) if Chris write romance it would be bad don't make him do it so:). PS. Sorry for bad English PS2. Chill out people pro- or against- romance people this is not RPGcodex so make it good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Seriously this topic is still on there will by no Romance in PoE so get over it i count for mods to make some good romance into game like in BG2 some where great and it make me play it many more time, some where terrible but few where great and NPC mod to ID1 where good too. For the people that against the romance in PoE it not Bioware game you can say no and at least for me it can give new perspective of gameplay. For proromancers be real Obsidian is not making the best romance so it somewhat good that there will not be one:) if Chris write romance it would be bad don't make him do it so:). PS. Sorry for bad English PS2. Chill out people pro- or against- romance people this is not RPGcodex so make it good. I am the eternal optimist, what if Obsidian is actually going to include Romance in PoE and they just didn't want to spoil the excitement? Like the fact we know nothing about the story of PoE? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anameforobsidian Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) No means no. Edited July 18, 2014 by anameforobsidian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stun Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I am the eternal optimist, what if Obsidian is actually going to include Romance in PoE and they just didn't want to spoil the excitement? Excitement lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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