I feel like I'm missing something here related to souls and the game mechanics in this game...?

[Falkon Swiftblade]

Sorry if this is a double post. The forum didn't load this when I posted it just now. I'm having some cognitive dissonance issues with the concepts shared with us so far about the game play mechanics and the concepts of souls. To me it seems very silly to spend so much time creating things in the game world that are so realistic that we have in our world like taxes and specific damage types, and using elements like berry's and water to heal yourself with, etc. Yet the lore seems to state that souls are a big deal in the game, & we'll spend majority of our time killing things. Don't monsters and wolves or w.e. have souls? Where do their souls go when they die? Why don't the powers at be just have an infinite amount of zombie monsters at their disposal, and how do you kill something that's already dead? Why not bring people back as animals or reincarnate into a giant, or something cool? I dunno, something about the whole soul mechanic in the game just doesn't feel like it fits. I'm just asking for context to really give the story or world a solid foundation. I understand it's a game, but some things you can't just be hokey or sloppy about unless it's done so in a satire or parody way. I got the impression this is a mature story and more of a serious game though, so some aspects seem wonky to me.

[Ark Evensong]

Yeah, I guess you are missing something. Not sure how to string whatever it is you're missing into something coherent, so I'll just address some of your points.

 

One would imagine monsters and animals do have souls, but possibly lesser (or just different) than those of the sapient species. They might reincarnate into baby monsters and animals.

 

No infinite zombie armies because they're expensive and/or hard to make? Oh, and to control. In PoE, you can't just take a dead body, shove some soul fragments in there, and hey presto, zombie! You need to tie the soul to the body, and from what I understand, this can only be done while the soul is still in there. (So, before death.) Then you need to starve the poor newly undead for a while before it becomes a full fledged zombie. Ti kill an undead, I'd imagine you simply damage the body enough until whatever process that tethered the soul to the body breaks. Alternatively, (and perhaps more horribly) you damage the body enough so it can't do anything anymore. This might involve grinding it down into a paste and setting it on fire. I dunno, I'm speculating here.

 

Maybe people do reincarnate and come back as other species. (Maybe they don't, different kind of souls or something.) Won't do much good, they'd have to start at birth again anyway. There doesn't seem to be a (known) way to keep an already untethered/newly dead soul around or shove into something else.

[Fiaryn]

Part of the whole idea of PoE is that it's a world with people who's cultures and history's aren't all that dissimilar from our own. They are meant to be living breathing societies.

 

They also happen to have magic in their world, and this being a quasi-renaissance setting this means you have people applying (rudimentary precursors to the) scientfic theory to magic and souls. How do they work? Why do they work? That's what people in this setting as well as us want to know. We're not supposed to have all the answers. But we do have some! Like that lashing a soul to a dead body has really bad side effects and that undeath is living on borrowed time that will, inevitably, run out.

 

And not leave your soul in a great state, at that.

 

As for why the powers that be don't have an army of the undead, aside from the above, you know how in the real world it's sometimes hard to get things that are unequivocably good to survive the political process because of talking points or whatever? Okay, now imagine the arbitrary cultural and/or ethical pushback that a good thing might get...magnified by the proposal in question being inherently objectionable, like raising the dead to be unliving enforcers of the state.

 

Ya know, the kind of thing that might incite a peasant rebellion or two or three or four, at minimum.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Fiaryn

[J.E. Sawyer]

Don't monsters and wolves or w.e. have souls? Where do their souls go when they die? Why don't the powers at be just have an infinite amount of zombie monsters at their disposal, and how do you kill something that's already dead? Why not bring people back as animals or reincarnate into a giant, or something cool?

 

In short, it's due to a combination of ignorance and the current limitations of science (animancy, specifically).

 

1. Yes.  Druids are animists and educated people have known for many generations that animals (and some plants, and some stones) have souls.  Animancers believe those souls have many similarities to the souls of kith ("civilized" folk) but are not identical and not interchangeable.  Some souls occasionally reincarnate in animals, plants, or living rocks, but it is uncommon and the process isn't understood.

 

2. No one knows exactly where souls go when the bodies associated with them die.  Popular belief among Aedyran/Dyrwoodan cultures is that they go to Hel, a vaguely-defined underworld, where the gods hold them and later release them back into the living world.  Short of reincarnation and Awakening, these are one-way trips.  Even Awakened souls have no memory of their afterlife.

 

3. Animation of unliving material and re-animation of once-living material is difficult, time-consuming, expensive, and fraught with complications.  Centuries ago, the intentional creation of what could best be called corporeal undead (broadly termed "vessels" in Eora) was one of the events that heralded a backlash against animancy in most nations.  Vessels can be killed by severely damaging their physical forms.  Souls that are present in the physical world need something physical to anchor to.  The exception are spirits, which never left the physical world and are anchored in it through the sheer will to be physically manifested.

 

4. Some animancers try to do these things.  Ancient Engwithans did it in a limited fashion and created animats, multiple warrior souls bound into a suit of bronze armor.  However, there are almost always side effects assuming the process works at all.  Both the general public and many powerful people view animancy as reckless and likely to invoke the displeasure of the gods.  It's seen as tampering with a natural or divine cycle.  So while many animancers are interested in this research for a variety of reasons, it's not always easy to find patrons.

[Natusake]

 

In short, it's due to a combination of ignorance and the current limitations of science (animancy, specifically).

 

1. Yes.  Druids are animists and educated people have known for many generations that animals (and some plants, and some stones) have souls.  Animancers believe those souls have many similarities to the souls of kith ("civilized" folk) but are not identical and not interchangeable.  Some souls occasionally reincarnate in animals, plants, or living rocks, but it is uncommon and the process isn't understood.

 

 

So, what about Ciphers then? Ciphers can control the souls of other humans, so can't they also control the souls of other life around them? What's stopping a cipher from feeding off the souls around him to bolster his own soul? To what degree can ciphers control souls? Can powerful ciphers rip souls out of bodies? If this is the case, then what's stopping a immensely powerful cipher from destroying huge areas of flora and fauna, or even humans or animal and livestock for that matter?

[NWN_babaYaga]

wow guys. You thought out that soul/ reincarnation stuff pretty deep. I know a bit of our own world reincarnation theorys and I like what you are describing. It makes sense to me even i´m not the ultimate mind guru. So another big + for PoE where things are not just "background" images but a rotating world with essence Love that!

[J.E. Sawyer]

So, what about Ciphers then? Ciphers can control the souls of other humans, so can't they also control the souls of other life around them? What's stopping a cipher from feeding off the souls around him to bolster his own soul? To what degree can ciphers control souls? Can powerful ciphers rip souls out of bodies? If this is the case, then what's stopping a immensely powerful cipher from destroying huge areas of flora and fauna, or even humans or animal and livestock for that matter?

 

Powerful ciphers can do a lot of things with souls, but I don't think what they do is, conceptually, tremendously out of line with what wizards and other powerful characters can do.  What's stopping any powerful character from laying waste to things at will is other powerful characters who oppose them.

 

Ciphers can't rip souls out of bodies, but they can manipulate and use them as power sources for other effects.  Detonate and Disintegration are the high-level cipher powers most obviously associated with direct single-target damage.

[Lephys]

Si. It's still all only partial control, no matter how devastating it is. Ciphers don't just puppet-string your soul, change who you are, and/or plant you into another vessel, etc.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Ciphers do have some combat charm/dominate powers (in fact, one is actually called Puppet Master), but they are relatively short duration and do not change the fundamental nature/soul of the target.  Some animancers do attempt to change the nature of souls/implant fragments of other souls/transplant souls, etc. -- usually with limited or no success.

[Lephys]

Perhaps I chose my words poorly, then, haha. Even then, you have some kind of defense (unless it's 100% effective), plus the fact that you can do plenty of stuff to them, too.

 

I guess a better description would've been that Ciphers are not Magneto, with souls being metal. 8P

 

At least, in the way this all seems.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Lephys

[Gromnir]

"However, there are almost always side effects assuming the process works at all.  Both the general public and many powerful people view animancy as reckless and likely to invoke the displeasure of the gods.  It's seen as tampering with a natural or divine cycle."

 

animancy sounds like scary stuff, particular in a magical world. magic necessarily is playing fast and loose with the natural order, which no doubt makes application o' the scientific method problematic, even if the scientific method is in widespread use by the "educated men" you describe above.  tampering with souls strikes us as a potentially extreme divisive use o' magic-- will no doubt be some who think any benefits o' animancy is outweighed by the obvious seeming costs. one difficulty we has is in an obsidian response that analogized resistance to animancy and real world concerns regarding stem cell research. would you say that fears and concerns regarding animancy in poe is approaching stem cell research levels? greater? is the dangers o' animancy (e.g. link 'tween corporeal undead creation and animancy) well known? am suspecting that different cultures will have differing levels 'o resistance to animancy. got any such examples? there any cultures or locales wherein the dangers o' animancy is largely ignored? if so, how is such tolerance explained?

 

no doubt many o' these questions need be answered in the game. even so, descriptions o' animancy in previous info drops don't necessarily seem to align with your contributions in this thread. care to enlighten, or should we expect clarification in the game? wait for game explanation is fine with Gromnir, just so long as we is knowing such explanations is actual forthcoming.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 8, 2014 by Gromnir

[J.E. Sawyer]

The places most tolerant of animancy are the Dyrwood and Vailian Republics.  Animancy was explicitly outlawed in Aedyr and Grand Vailia (the old world).  The new colonial nations, once they gained independence, were slow to deal with issues related to animancy and research has flourished as a result (with some hiccups along the way).  Aedyr and many of the "old world" cultures still think animancy is extremely dangerous for both immediate (you will get physically messed up) and global (the gods will get mad) reasons.

 

Detailed (correct) knowledge of animancy is not particularly widespread.  The research texts tend to be held by a small number of people in part because texts are all still copied by hand.  Common folk have a lot of ideas and opinions about what animancy is, but it's not well-informed.  Even within the Dyrwood, where a lot of animancy research occurs, there is a strong division between the opinions of rural Dyrwoodans/Glanfathans and people who live in Defiance Bay, much closer to where the research is actually happening.

[Gromnir]

no doubt josh is trying to be careful to not give anything away that is best left for the game. am understanding. nevertheless, we didn't actual learn much that you didn't already say previous, and we is still mighty confused. not wanna address stem cell analogy? okie dokie. how 'bout,"common folk have a lot of ideas and opinions about what animancy is, but it's not well-informed." see, am not certain what to make o' this. use real world ignorance o' the unwashed masses don't seem to help neither. think new sciences will possibly rob you o' your soul is the kinda silliness we would expect from a story set in similar time/place as The Name of the Rose, or even in early Renaissance.​ the difference here being that the real dangers o' animancy include the horrors one would expect uneducated to imagine in the absence o' knowledge. animancers is messing with your soul and creating undead. if the realities o' animancy include the horrific, then is the "common folk" actual imagining worse? may take us a bit to try and come up with a possible worse. 

 

am seeing we will need wait to get clarification... or perhaps we won't. hopefully the in-game explanations satisfy where current developer explanations leave more questions.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[ManifestedISO]

We have little choice but to play WASD style. Wait And See Dude.

[Gromnir]

We have little choice but to play WASD style. Wait And See Dude.

truth.

 

am nevertheless concerned. it is possible that the soul stuff simple weren't thought out very well. in a world where Gods is unequivocal real, and the existence o' the soul is not in question, we would expect greater resistance to animancy, particular when the real dangers o' that "science" is stuff outta nightmares. stem cell research? really? that is a good analogy? clearly Gromnir is missing something. am hoping that something is actual in the game.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[J.E. Sawyer]

The common folk are imagining that the gods themselves will punish/annihilate entire nations for the activities of a few.  Many also believe that animancers are inherently malicious and that their practices are intentionally undertaken to swindle/cause harm.  They associate animancy with gods-forsaken evil instead of ethically-questionable but maybe well-intentioned haphazard experimentation.

[J.E. Sawyer]

We've focused in the past on how animancy has been used in the past to create undead, but I'm positive we've also discussed that a great deal of animancy research goes toward understanding and attempting to correct personality defects/mental illness and other beneficial things.  Enough powerful people in Defiance Bay see the potential for good (at least, their own good) in animancy to keep the mobs at bay.

[DCParry]

Fascinating stuff as always, but every bit opens up more questions!

 

There can be a lot of factors that complicate the matter that will make the presence of souls quite interesting. There is always the distinction between our absolute knowledge as players (souls are actual things, and these things have effect/can be effected) and in-game knowledge (which will be divided along cultural [do we have nations yet? would seem a bit early for that], socio-economic, or religious lines). Like Josh said, druids know animals have souls (or soul like analogues), but does the swineherd know this? I assume that the world isn't populated by a gaggle of Pythagoreans who have never known the joy of meat or beans. 

 

Incidentally, are beans one of the plants that have souls? Please say yes; they are, after all, the magical fruit. 

 

Of course, if a group can dismiss the souls of animals, then it is not a huge rationalization to claim that certain groups actually have no souls either, justifying horrific violence and oppression. All sorts of fun possibilities! 

[Gromnir]

the reaction o' the common folks strikes us as entire plausible. view animancers with extreme suspicion? that makes perfect sense. correct info about animancy is, as josh observed, not wide-spread. mostest folks is gonna necessarily be ‘mongst the uniformed. most will be suspicious.

 

the informed, on the other hand, is gonna be aware that animancers is capable o’ such “evils” as binding a soul to a corpse, such that unless the animated corpse eats his fellow men, he goes inextricably insane? going insane in such circumstances strikes us as something o’ a blessing. we is talking ‘bout a world where souls is not mere an abstraction neither, yes? 

 

is poe souls viewed so complete different from real world? maybe souls is more akin to a human appendix… or at least a kidney? sure, a kidney is extreme important, but you gotta spare, yes? we would let somebody experiment on our kidney if we were extreme desperate, had all kinda safety protocols in place, and were knowing that outcome would not potential damn us to an eternal torment.

 

…

 

yeah. am still clear missing something. we get that there is benign applications o’ animancy. am gonna assume there is potential lucrative opportunities to be making money from such benign applications. nevertheless, you has created a “science” that births the stuff outta nightmares AND is a direct manipulation o’ souls. the absence o’ extreme suspicion from the uniformed and Many of the informed is odd. poe has some strongholds o' enlightened acceptance? ok. sure. is a game too, so why not? that being said, am hopeful game does better job o' making animancy seem more palatable.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[curryinahurry]

@ Sawyer's comments

 

This begs the question of how are these experiments/treatments observable and reproducible?   We've heard a good deal about the de facto existence of souls, but not much about how they are observed (and thus manipulated) other than a few snippets (Orlan Cipher 7 the 'housed soul' in the knife as an example).  Are they auras, fields, etc.  that are viewable through some objective means (special lenses, equipment, spells, etc.) or only by the proverbial 'select few'?  

 

BTW, this is all sounding much more like something out of a Hammer film than something out of the turn of the renaissance, but that's not a bad thing if it's handled well.

Edited July 8, 2014 by curryinahurry

[Gromnir]

post script

 

please don't bring real world examples into this. a man dying o' a pancreatic cancer will consider most any possible medical solution. if ridiculous and expensive dolphin urine and coffee grounds cure don't work, what is the worst possible result? death? the guy is dying for chrissakes. dying by inches and not least bit dignified. a quick and painful death is not something to be greatly feared by the man who has pancreatic cancer. souls make different. in a world where souls is real, death is not the worst outcome for a dying man. risk your eternal soul to be guinea pig in a schizophrenia treatment study? hmmm. yeah, what is option B again?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

edit: typically we would not be curious 'bout the religious backgrounds o' game developers, but it occurs to us that this might be a factor. the moderate well educated person in their 20s and 30s is tending to be the least religious 'mongst the American demographic. if obsidian guys is all atheist or somesuch, am guessing it is possible that they could be dismissive o' the importance o' the soul. maybe obsidian folks, in spite o' creating a world with objective real souls, simply don't get how vital the soul is to people who have faith. in poe you don't need faith. maybe gotta talk to some True Believers to get a sense o' importance o' the soul? had never occured to us before now, but if literal everybody at obsidian don't actual have any kinda faith that hinges on the notion o' an immortal soul, then perhaps they simple don't understand.  dunno... is a complete left field guess. 

 

to tajerio: we seen your response as we edited, so this may be confusing as we seeming reply before your post. apologies in advance. we did observe that poe souls could be viewed different, and if that is the case such that souls is rather like an appendix, then we can be understanding the pov presented by the developers. given the horror o' corporeal undead, am wondering if such a perspective is plausible. your soul gets anchored to your corpse and it is you who goes cannibal and insane, not just some fuzzy and indistinct notion o' otherness. nevertheless, if souls is like hair or fingernails or appendix, am gonna need reevaluate. 

 

we mentioned in another animancy thread that philip pullman books (golden compass/northern lights) actual deal with separate soul concept. is a worthwhile read. am not suggesting pullman is only way to do such, but his perspective seemed internal coherent. 

Edited July 8, 2014 by Gromnir

[tajerio]

post script

 

please don't bring real world examples into this. a man dying o' a pancreatic cancer will consider most any possible medical solution. if ridiculous and expensive dolphin urine and coffee grounds cure don't work, what is the worst possible result? death? the guy is dying for chrissakes. dying by inches and not least bit dignified. a quick and painful death is not something to be greatly feared by the man who has pancreatic cancer. souls make different. in a world where souls is real, death is not the worst outcome for a dying man. risk your eternal soul to be guinea pig in a schizophrenia treatment study? hmmm. yeah, what is option B again?

 

HA! Good Fun!

In Eora, is your eternal soul actually YOU, though, or is it just a piece of what goes to make you up? Depending on how that's understood among the various cultures, there could well be plenty of people who would risk crazy things in order to save themselves.

[DCParry]

post script

 

please don't bring real world examples into this. a man dying o' a pancreatic cancer will consider most any possible medical solution. if ridiculous and expensive dolphin urine and coffee grounds cure don't work, what is the worst possible result? death? the guy is dying for chrissakes. dying by inches and not least bit dignified. a quick and painful death is not something to be greatly feared by the man who has pancreatic cancer. souls make different. in a world where souls is real, death is not the worst outcome for a dying man. risk your eternal soul to be guinea pig in a schizophrenia treatment study? hmmm. yeah, what is option B again?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I see what you are saying, but there is the intellectual, philosophical knowledge that your soul is immortal, and perhaps there is even widespread empirical knowledge to the effect (although I am not sure this would be the most likely case as knowledge dissemination may not be as wide spread as even our Renaissance analogue, as it appears we have no printing press yet), and then there is the physical, visceral knowledge of your impending demise. I am sure there is a PoE Plato of some sort who nattered on about caves and such, but there is the possibility that if all we know are shadows, and we have only heard about the other things, we are going to cling to those shadows with every bit of crazy delusional self destructive strength we can. 

[Gromnir]

 

post script

 

please don't bring real world examples into this. a man dying o' a pancreatic cancer will consider most any possible medical solution. if ridiculous and expensive dolphin urine and coffee grounds cure don't work, what is the worst possible result? death? the guy is dying for chrissakes. dying by inches and not least bit dignified. a quick and painful death is not something to be greatly feared by the man who has pancreatic cancer. souls make different. in a world where souls is real, death is not the worst outcome for a dying man. risk your eternal soul to be guinea pig in a schizophrenia treatment study? hmmm. yeah, what is option B again?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I see what you are saying, but there is the intellectual, philosophical knowledge that your soul is immortal, and perhaps there is even widespread empirical knowledge to the effect (although I am not sure this would be the most likely case as knowledge dissemination may not be as wide spread as even our Renaissance analogue, as it appears we have no printing press yet), and then there is the physical, visceral knowledge of your impending demise. I am sure there is a PoE Plato of some sort who nattered on about caves and such, but there is the possibility that if all we know are shadows, and we have only heard about the other things, we are going to cling to those shadows with every bit of crazy delusional self destructive strength we can. 

 

am not thinking actual knowledge o' immortality o' the soul is necessary to be making experimentation with souls unpalatable. josh mentioned earlier that there is varying notions 'bout what happens to souls after death. there also seems to be some empirical evidence regarding reincarnation. regardless, the soul is real. is not a hypothetical. the folks who have knowledge o' animancy is also aware that animancers can anchor your soul to your corpse, and that your corpse persists indefinitely. immortal? don't know, but regardless, the soul is real and one is knowing that it can exist beyond death. 

 

question: in a world where gods and souls is incontrovertibly real, do you honest see persons being more dismissive o' the soul than in real world? 

 

as we said before, we is gonna need more info. yeah, is possible to makes some explanation as to why poe peoples is indifferent to souls, but based on how the common folks react and given how josh otherwise describes souls and animancy, we cannot reconcile what we is being told.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 8, 2014 by Gromnir

[ManifestedISO]

 

Some souls occasionally reincarnate in animals, plants, or living rocks, but it is uncommon and the process isn't understood.

 

Could these living rocks be hewn to, say, a pillar form--an encasement meant to last for ... eternity?