Excellent read on more progressive games

[Bester]

God I hate this kind of ****. My life is bad enough without people constaly trying to tell me I should feel sorry for being smarter than aborigines and all sorts of races and genders. The Jews made me this way, OK? Get a life.

[Gromnir]

 

there ain't enough games that cater to 40-something, self-important native american lawyers.  so, fight the dominant paradigm. hasta la victoria siempre, fifty-four forty or fight. etc.  

 

uh, what?

 

stupid article.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps to alter content for naive notions that doing so benefits a disfranchised group or necessarily promotes a social agenda that demands attention strikes us as profoundly myopic and more than a little insulting

 

I have to honest, I was perhaps a bit premature to say the article was "excellent"

 

I do find it interesting and it does raise good points but I am also finding several flaws in the writers thinking process

 

am gonna concede that as a minority in America, we has gotten damn tired o' having to deal with the race "issue" all the freaking time. we, perhaps naively, did not take advantage o' affirmative action opportunities when looking to gain admittance to university, or when looking to pay for education. were stupid o' us in retrospect, but we didn't want to be defined by race. every time an acquaintance would make a remotely racist comment and then suddenly pull up short and kinda peak at us sidelong to see if we were offended, we would indeed be offended, but not so much by the slur. example heard last week: "f***ers can become a super power overnight, but they can't even get the starch in my shirts right."  colleague makes a silly off-hand quip about his chinese launderer. comment were dumb, but why the hell should he look at Gromnir as if checking to see if we were angry? it does piss us off more than a little that we gotta constant deal with race... everywhere.

 

yeah, when we go into a hardware store and we see shop owner keeping a particular close eye on us to make sure we don't steal nothing, we has eye-roll moment. is little moments o' racism we deal with all the time. perhaps we should be more concerned. however, if we never had to see discussions/debates o' race or sex in games, we would be relieved. yeah, it may be more relevant than Gromnir wishes it to be, but we got more than a stomach full o' such bile.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited June 30, 2014 by Gromnir

[Bester]

Gromnir not of default race? Oh boy....

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I never knew you were so sensitive Hiro?

 

I have had debates with people on these forums about offensive and unacceptable comments on websites like RPGCodex, for example people joking about rape, and was told " its the Internet, people must learn to have thick skins"

 

But now this one article seems to have created such outrage because the author is deemed to be shouting? What happened to the importance of free speech and having a thick skin?

 

 

You miss the point Bruce.

 

The swear words he uses don't faze me. So no, I'm not so sensitive that if someone uses **** online that it offends me. It doesn't. However, as I said it may offend others. If other people are offended and can't get past the first paragraph, then he's lost readers. And the author using such words are not doing themselves any favours by using them when more effective words can be used. It comes across as a childish rant and lazy writing.

 

And it's not about having a thick skin. I have a pretty think skin myself. It's about presentation. The article could have been written better without all the shouting and have had a more dramatic impact with the readers. And being online, do you think it appropriate that someone who makes any type of presentation, written or even video, that shouting at the audience is an effective way of communication? For instance, would people who follow Anita Sarkeesian like it if she ranted and shouted at her audience? I mean in your words, "What happened to the importance of free speech and having a thick skin?"

 

When I see such articles, full of vitriol, swearing and shouting, I just zone out and move on. I'm not offended by it, I just can't be bothered reading it. If it was presented better, I would have read it all.

 

Oh and you don't mind people shouting at you? If someone was shouting at you, you would just stand there and be okay with it? I mean, in your words, What happened to the importance of free speech and having a thick skin?

 

I do find it funny you would compare this article to RPG Codex.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[AGX-17]

I don't disagree with your stance, but when I see

Guys please read this article

I feel an intense yearning to not read this article.

[BruceVC]

 

 

there ain't enough games that cater to 40-something, self-important native american lawyers.  so, fight the dominant paradigm. hasta la victoria siempre, fifty-four forty or fight. etc.  

 

uh, what?

 

stupid article.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps to alter content for naive notions that doing so benefits a disfranchised group or necessarily promotes a social agenda that demands attention strikes us as profoundly myopic and more than a little insulting

 

I have to honest, I was perhaps a bit premature to say the article was "excellent"

 

I do find it interesting and it does raise good points but I am also finding several flaws in the writers thinking process

 

am gonna concede that as a minority in America, we has gotten damn tired o' having to deal with the race "issue" all the freaking time. we, perhaps naively, did not take advantage o' affirmative action opportunities when looking to gain admittance to university, or when looking to pay for education. were stupid o' us in retrospect, but we didn't want to be defined by race. every time an acquaintance would make a remotely racist comment and then suddenly pull up short and kinda peak at us sidelong to see if we were offended, we would indeed be offended, but not so much by the slur. example heard last week: "f***ers can become a super power overnight, but they can't even get the starch in my shirts right."  colleague makes a silly off-hand quip about his chinese launderer. comment were dumb, but why the hell should he look at Gromnir as if checking to see if we were angry? it does piss us off more than a little that we gotta constant deal with race... everywhere.

 

yeah, when we go into a hardware store and we see shop owner keeping a particular close eye on us to make sure we don't steal nothing, we has eye-roll moment. is little moments o' racism we deal with all the time. perhaps we should be more concerned. however, if we never had to see discussions/debates o' race or sex in games, we would be relieved. yeah, it may be more relevant than Gromnir wishes it to be, but we got more than a stomach full o' such bile.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

That's a interesting post, thanks for sharing some of your personal views on these matter as it adds relevant context

 

Are you saying that at times in your experience  there is an over-sensitivity towards race, for example people worried that you take offense about jokes. But then there are cases where racism is real, like the shop owner incident?

 

But end of the day you don't feel racism is an issue in Video games or needs to highlighted as much as it is?

[BruceVC]

I don't disagree with your stance, but when I see

Guys please read this article

I feel an intense yearning to not read this article.

 

 

Please read it objectively, I want your input. I may not always agree with you on topics but I respect your intellectual contribution towards many subjects

[BruceVC]

 

I never knew you were so sensitive Hiro?

 

I have had debates with people on these forums about offensive and unacceptable comments on websites like RPGCodex, for example people joking about rape, and was told " its the Internet, people must learn to have thick skins"

 

But now this one article seems to have created such outrage because the author is deemed to be shouting? What happened to the importance of free speech and having a thick skin?

 

 

You miss the point Bruce.

 

The swear words he uses don't faze me. So no, I'm not so sensitive that if someone uses **** online that it offends me. It doesn't. However, as I said it may offend others. If other people are offended and can't get past the first paragraph, then he's lost readers. And the author using such words are not doing themselves any favours by using them when more effective words can be used. It comes across as a childish rant and lazy writing.

 

And it's not about having a thick skin. I have a pretty think skin myself. It's about presentation. The article could have been written better without all the shouting and have had a more dramatic impact with the readers. And being online, do you think it appropriate that someone who makes any type of presentation, written or even video, that shouting at the audience is an effective way of communication? For instance, would people who follow Anita Sarkeesian like it if she ranted and shouted at her audience? I mean in your words, "What happened to the importance of free speech and having a thick skin?"

 

When I see such articles, full of vitriol, swearing and shouting, I just zone out and move on. I'm not offended by it, I just can't be bothered reading it. If it was presented better, I would have read it all.

 

Oh and you don't mind people shouting at you? If someone was shouting at you, you would just stand there and be okay with it? I mean, in your words, What happened to the importance of free speech and having a thick skin?

 

I do find it funny you would compare this article to RPG Codex.

 

 

I am now of the opinion that this article is not going to achieve its desired result because of how the message is being conveyed. So you make some good points around the whole belligerence of the author and the bad first impression he makes, but I did say "you need to get past the first paragraph"

 

But for me I try to question the message, in other words " Attack the Argument, Not the Person"

 

So I am more interested in what he is saying than the fact he is shouting ( but yes this can be annoying and counterproductive )

[Monte Carlo]

AGX don't read it. Fight the temptation.

[BruceVC]

AGX don't read it. Fight the temptation.

 

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I am now of the opinion that this article is not going to achieve its desired result because of how the message is being conveyed. So you make some good points around the whole belligerence of the author and the bad first impression he makes, but I did say "you need to get past the first paragraph"

 

But for me I try to question the message, in other words " Attack the Argument, Not the Person"

 

So I am more interested in what he is saying than the fact he is shouting ( but yes this can be annoying and counterproductive )

 

Since you compared it to RPG Codex, I decided to do a search on the F word in my browser to see if he used it. Lo and behold he did. Again, I'm not offended by it but maybe someone from RPG Codex did write this?

 

This sort of ranting just makes me go, 'ugh, can't be bothered'.

[Calax]

On the larger discussion, I can't think of many games recently where you're the generic white man rescuing bikini clad babes.

 

Closest one I know of is FarCry 3, and in that game there were far more issues in the game than just the gender politics.

[Gromnir]

am thinking that video games is a particular poor media for advancing social agenda, and if game developers wanna make a genuine difference, they should go freaking volunteer at a soup kitchen or habitat for humanity rather than adding downtrodden elves or gnomes to their game. am thinking that it has become almost cliché for crpgs to deal with racism and slavery and such.

 

more controversial pov: am thinking that such depictions o' racism as typical appear in games actual hurt the cause o' racial equality more than they help. see poor and oppressed __________ being whipped by evil taskmasters and forced to live in functional concentration camps. anybody gonna argue that such is bad? well guess what, that ain't racism--is not racism of today. racism is much more subtle and is far more difficult to end than is slavery. folks can look at typical game racism and say to themselves, "look how far we have come. real racism doesn't exist anymore."

 

*snort*

 

our recommendation to game developers: quit it. is more than enough evils o' the human condition for you to explore without tying to get edgy 'bout racism and sexism. yeah, we get that it is not reasonable to complete ignore racism and sexism in games. such isms is so integral to real world that their complete absence in a game world is jarring and disconcerting-- entered the matrix. nevertheless, game developers has never done anything particular insightful with racism or sexism other than when they try to pretend it don't exist. ironic.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

On the larger discussion, I can't think of many games recently where you're the generic white man rescuing bikini clad babes.

 

Closest one I know of is FarCry 3, and in that game there were far more issues in the game than just the gender politics.

 

The whole " generic white man rescuing bikini clad babes" is more symbolic, I don't think its meant to be taken literally?

[Monte Carlo]

Bruce, by your own admission you like frequenting strip joints and salivating over digital RPG babes.

 

OTOH when it comes to White Knighting you are the most insufferable bore, a sort of tireless missionary for moribund political correctness. Can you explain the ying and yang of these two positions? Are they linked?

[AGX-17]

Bruce, by your own admission you like frequenting strip joints and salivating over digital RPG babes.

Ohhhhhh, this I like. This is juicy. DO GO ON.

[BruceVC]

am thinking that video games is a particular poor media for advancing social agenda, and if game developers wanna make a genuine difference, they should go freaking volunteer at a soup kitchen or habitat for humanity rather than adding downtrodden elves or gnomes to their game. am thinking that it has become almost cliché for crpgs to deal with racism and slavery and such.

 

more controversial pov: am thinking that such depictions o' racism as typical appear in games actual hurt the cause o' racial equality more than they help. see poor and oppressed __________ being whipped by evil taskmasters and forced to live in functional concentration camps. anybody gonna argue that such is bad? well guess what, that ain't racism--is not racism of today. racism is much more subtle and is far more difficult to end than is slavery. folks can look at typical game racism and say to themselves, "look how far we have come. real racism doesn't exist anymore."

 

*snort*

 

our recommendation to game developers: quit it. is more than enough evils o' the human condition for you to explore without tying to get edgy 'bout racism and sexism. yeah, we get that it is not reasonable to complete ignore racism and sexism in games. such isms is so integral to real world that their complete absence in a game world is jarring and disconcerting-- entered the matrix. nevertheless, game developers has never done anything particular insightful with racism or sexism other than when they try to pretend it don't exist. ironic.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Interesting perspective, I agree that the issue of bigotry is much more nuanced than some developer  saying " look everyone, in this  game we have a female and African American character. You can see how committed we are to transformation and addressing the social injustices of the past"

 

This is going to make no difference to what certain  people really think or behave in private but are they target market for these types of social initiatives? I think these types of campaigns are aimed more at a moderate and reasonable audience

 

I think that gaming is one medium that you can get a certain message across and set a certain narrative. Think about just 7 years ago, the thought of homosexual Romance options in games was unheard of. Now Bioware has bravely and correctly changed this design in the interests of inclusivity. Nowadays its really not acceptable to go to most forums and make comments like " gay people must burn in the fires of hell and the only good gay person is a dead gay person"

 

So even though homophobia is still practised and prevalent in certain countries the narrative and type of bigoted comments are just not acceptable in many countries and on many places in the Internet. This is a progressive and appreciated change for me and this example applies to all other forms of discrimination

 

So  in summary I think gaming can raise awareness around real social justice issues. It can't necessarily change a persons personal views or the real suffering of the indigent  but it doesn't have to. Its just about the message that hopefully resonates with people. Once people believe in the message than they can decide on there own what they want to do next. And maybe they will want to work part time in a soup kitchen?

[BruceVC]

Bruce, by your own admission you like frequenting strip joints and salivating over digital RPG babes.

 

OTOH when it comes to White Knighting you are the most insufferable bore, a sort of tireless missionary for moribund political correctness. Can you explain the ying and yang of these two positions? Are they linked?

You funny Monte

 

My perspective on social justice issues and what change I can effect is reasonable. There are no contradictions in my logic despite what you are alluding to

 

I don't see why appreciation of the female form and appreciation of aesthetics means I can't say I take social justice issues seriously?

 

Let me ask you something. Why if I go to a strip club does that mean I can't say I am opposed to Sexism? I can't offer those strippers a job and I can't fund there lifestyle choices. But I support the fact that they have free choice in what job they are doing. As long as the strippers aren't victims of human trafficking who am I to judge them?

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Why if I go to a strip club does that mean I can't say I am opposed to Sexism? I can't offer those strippers a job and I can't fund there lifestyle choices. But I support the fact that they have free choice in what job they are doing. As long as the strippers aren't victims of human trafficking who am I to judge them?

 

I don't even...

[Barothmuk]

I could go into a tirade about the economic circumstances such women frequently come from and the concept of male-gaze.

 

But I think I've had enough of those types of discussions for one day.

[BruceVC]

I could go into a tirade about the economic circumstances such women frequently come from and the concept of male-gaze.

 

But I think I've had enough of those types of discussions for one day.

 

Comment later, I would like to hear your view

[BruceVC]

 

Why if I go to a strip club does that mean I can't say I am opposed to Sexism? I can't offer those strippers a job and I can't fund there lifestyle choices. But I support the fact that they have free choice in what job they are doing. As long as the strippers aren't victims of human trafficking who am I to judge them?

 

I don't even...

 

 

Please explain why you are objecting to what I am saying. I don't want to assume

[Gromnir]

"I think that gaming is one medium that you can get a certain message across and set a certain narrative. Think about just 7 years ago, the thought of homosexual Romance options in games was unheard of. Now Bioware has bravely and correctly changed this design in the interests of inclusivity. Nowadays its really not acceptable to go to most forums and make comments like " gay people must burn in the fires of hell and the only good gay person is a dead gay person""

 

you give Way too much credit to bio. seven years ago if you had gone to most any developer crpg message board and posted insulting comments about homosexuals, you woulda' been quickly and soundly chastised. am recalling a number o' nwn communities that developed in anticipation o' that game... and that started development considerable more than seven years ago. alfa were a group we helped with... for  bit. 

 

http://www.alandfaraway.org/

 

is still around. had a few Thousand members at one point. there were more than a few openly homosexual members. there were one particularly vocal transsexual member. *shrug* most folks didn't care 'bout sexual orientation of alfa members... and keep in mind that the guy who were elected to be in charge o' alfa at the time were a major in the US army. is not as if nwn were advertised as a gay friendly game neither. interplay, black isle, atari and bioware (nwn had a complicated development) were hardly promoting nwn as a game that were friendly to alternative lifestyle choices, and hasbro, the parent corp o' wotc and d&d were almost comical opposite o' being open 'bout matter sexual. nevertheless, gay bashing woulda' been stopped by community and mods very quick in those days.

 

*shrug*

 

our perspective is different. we do not see bio as successfully promoted gay tolerance in the crpg world.  at "best," bio made so that every crpg development must at least need consider and have open debate about gay romance. am s'posing that is a kinda improvement for the lgbt gaming community. if you squint your eyes and kinda look at the situation sideways and optimistic as possible, then such a triviality might appear to be a "win."

 

huzzah?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Meshugger]

A guy whines about some other guys whining. Wow.

 

Bruce pls, just give us atleast an article that has some solid foundation. This crap about unempowered women and other tripe fresh out of classist thought of Karl Marx high is only helping people that want some people to become more equal than others.

[BruceVC]

"I think that gaming is one medium that you can get a certain message across and set a certain narrative. Think about just 7 years ago, the thought of homosexual Romance options in games was unheard of. Now Bioware has bravely and correctly changed this design in the interests of inclusivity. Nowadays its really not acceptable to go to most forums and make comments like " gay people must burn in the fires of hell and the only good gay person is a dead gay person""

 

you give Way too much credit to bio. seven years ago if you had gone to most any developer crpg message board and posted insulting comments about homosexuals, you woulda' been quickly and soundly chastised. am recalling a number o' nwn communities that developed in anticipation o' that game... and that started development considerable more than seven years ago. alfa were a group we helped with... for  bit. 

 

http://www.alandfaraway.org/

 

is still around. had a few Thousand members at one point. there were more than a few openly homosexual members. there were one particularly vocal transsexual member. *shrug* most folks didn't care 'bout sexual orientation of alfa members... and keep in mind that the guy who were elected to be in charge o' alfa at the time were a major in the US army. is not as if nwn were advertised as a gay friendly game neither. interplay, black isle, atari and bioware (nwn had a complicated development) were hardly promoting nwn as a game that were friendly to alternative lifestyle choices, and hasbro, the parent corp o' wotc and d&d were almost comical opposite o' being open 'bout matter sexual. nevertheless, gay bashing woulda' been stopped by community and mods very quick in those days.

 

*shrug*

 

our perspective is different. we do not see bio as successfully promoted gay tolerance in the crpg world.  at "best," bio made so that every crpg development must at least need consider and have open debate about gay romance. am s'posing that is a kinda improvement for the lgbt gaming community. if you squint your eyes and kinda look at the situation sideways and optimistic as possible, then such a triviality might appear to be a "win."

 

huzzah?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I have been only active on various forums for the last 5 years so I didn't know about previous attempts on inclusivity like that Alfa example so that's interesting and good to know.

 

But I want to focus on the last paragraph, I don't want to give undeserved credit to Bioware but I also think we should recognize that Bioware has created a popular and well known "safe " zone for gay gamers where they can discuss Romance options without fear of ridicule or criticism. And this is important as this is part of the discussion around inclusivity in games and gaming websites

 

This is not the same thing as websites that won't tolerate Homophobia. My experience around gay Romance discussions is that this is one of the most contentious issues that people battle to accept. For example if I go  to any gaming website that is discussing Romance in Bioware games and say "Wow Isabela was hot, nice breasts on that one. I would have loved to tap that ass" the most criticism I would receive is something along the lines of  " that's crude"...or " wow you are objectifying women in a crass way " or something similar

 

Now take that same example but let me rather raise the fact that Anders was hot then describe how I want to have sex with him and I can guarantee you the criticism will be much more personal and vituperative

 

Even on these forums where I've been involved in Romance discussion there has been criticism directed towards Romance along the  lines of " BSN actually encourages inter-racial relationships" and "We don't mind Romance but the thought of gay Romance is not right ".

 

So in summary I don't  think we can downplay what websites like BSN do for inclusivity and the fact that they create "safe" zones for minority groups. Yes they didn't start them and they aren't the only ones but I still think BSN plays an important part in the narrative of equality and fair treatment of all gamers