Your PoE Pros and Cons: 5 and 5

[ShadySands]

How about a tribe of brutal lesbian, African American women who enslave and humiliate other racial groups but particularly white males in PoE?

 

This made me laugh because there are certain people who believe this is the case now

[Barothmuk]

I want to focus on your primary objective with this type of game design. We know the feudal system was sexist and had an inimical to various groups.

And yet you advocate the elimination of the sexism that is inherent to the feudal system.

 

It'd be almost as silly as depicting a feudal society with the qualifier of "Oh but class conflict doesn't exist". It just doesn't make sense.

 

So I want you to give me an example in PoE of a society or town that would be designed that is going to educate or benefit the cause of understanding, for example, sexism that we don't already know or need to be presented with.

I honestly don't even know what you are trying to say here meaning you have no doubt missed my point as well (as I have missed yours).

 

I'm not demanding PoE be an afternoon special with a new moral lesson for each town. Rather the institutionalised discrimination inherent to the feudal system (race, class, sex, etc) and how it manifested would be shown throughout the whole game. Its simply a part of the setting.

 

snip

Oy vey.

 

The link was a quick reference to the common misconception that certain pre-feudal societies having different freedoms for women does not mean they were "matriarchal" or even equal. As most sociologists will agree, although primitive matriarchal societies having existed are certainly possible, there's simply no evidence that any have actually existed.

 

Nevertheless, the various Native American nations were not feudal thus the point is moot.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Barothmuk

[Gromnir]

 

How about a tribe of brutal lesbian, African American women who enslave and humiliate other racial groups but particularly white males in PoE?

This made me laugh because there are certain people who believe this is the case now

 

"How about a tribe of brutal lesbian women who humiliate other racial groups but particularly white males?"

 

altered thus it sounds a bit like Berkeley when we were going to school.

 

"Nevertheless, the various Native American nations were not feudal thus the point is moot."

 

actually, you is missing the point. as we has now said numerous times, poe is a fantasy (quasi) feudal setting. so such examples is as relevant as any other. and again, while it has been more common post 1970s to identify iroquois and hopi as quasi-matriarchal, there is still considerable scholarly support for such a label.

 

regardless, links to wiki is = 0.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited June 28, 2014 by Gromnir

[Barothmuk]

actually, you is missing the point. as we has now said numerous times, poe is a fantasy (quasi) feudal setting. so such examples is as relevant as any other. you is not getting the fantasy bit?

I already addressed this.

 

Of course it can. Plenty of fantasy settings dismiss the logical structures present in primitive systems in favour of creating what amounts to an idealized modern world with fantasy coating.

 

Pillars however seems to be examining the logical structures present in societies (institutionalized racism, class conflict and so on) and actually exploring them.

[ManifestedISO]

Really, the exasperated Jewish professor schtick ...

 

When you say 'logical', that means you're advocating.

[Gromnir]

 

actually, you is missing the point. as we has now said numerous times, poe is a fantasy (quasi) feudal setting. so such examples is as relevant as any other. you is not getting the fantasy bit?

I already addressed this.

 

Of course it can. Plenty of fantasy settings dismiss the logical structures present in primitive systems in favour of creating what amounts to an idealized modern world with fantasy coating.

 

Pillars however seems to be examining the logical structures present in societies (institutionalized racism, class conflict and so on) and actually exploring them.

 

to take your turn o' phrase, "Oy vey."

 

again, is a fantasy setting. as noted above, with a single stroke o' a pen the the logic you see in existing societies can be altered and changed and kept wholly rational and internal reasonable. arguing reality as basis is doomed. the fact that poe will have racism and class conflict does not mean that such will be mirrors o' reality, anymore than poe combat will be mirroring reality, or that poe flora and fauna will have realistic biological basis. is fantasy.

 

and again, we already addressed how gender is different. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited June 28, 2014 by Gromnir

[Zombra]

Depicting inherently bigoted, oppressive and sexist systems as bigoted, oppressive and sexist is not antagonizing.

 

Maybe not, but saying, "Hey!  Let's make a game world centered around a bigoted and sexist system!  This'll be great!" is.

 

What I advocate is showing the misogyny of feudal society

 

You mean showing the historical misogyny of feudal societies of Earth?

[Barothmuk]

When you say 'logical', that means you're advocating.

Advocating?

 

again, is a fantasy setting. as noted above, with a single stroke o' a pen the the logic you see in existing societies can be altered and changed and kept wholly rational and internal reasonable.

I have never seen such a thing. Instead the setting will say "Oh but we don't have social problem X" all the while still having the internal contradictions.

 

None the less, as you are a firm believer in the "fantasy ergo anything" mentality whereas I am completely the opposite I believe we simply lack enough common ground to bother continuing.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Barothmuk

[Gromnir]

 

When you say 'logical', that means you're advocating.

Advocating?

 

again, is a fantasy setting. as noted above, with a single stroke o' a pen the the logic you see in existing societies can be altered and changed and kept wholly rational and internal reasonable.

I have never seen such a thing. Instead they will dismiss the setting will say "Oh but we don't have X" all the while still having the internal contradictions.

 

None the less, as you are a firm believer in the "fantasy ergo anything" mentality whereas I am completely the opposite I believe we simply lack enough common ground to bother continuing.

 

am not advocating that anything goes in fantasy. but with imagination and some small effort, internal rational is not so great a hurdle.

 

but again, it is a Fantasy Game. fantasy, by its very nature requires deviation from reality. the fact that poe is a game also requires concessions. but yeah. we lack common ground if you can't recognize why in a fantasy setting it is just as plausible to have fantasy feudal system that is matriarchal or quasi-matriarchal or complete equal as one that victimizes women. give women the magic and suddenly everything is turned upside down or backward or... whatever. am also lacking common ground if you cannot recognize that as poe is a Game with women players, forcing them to endure endemic misogyny might be a poor choice for developers.

 

*shrug*

 

reality is rare a sufficient reason to include anything in a fantasy game. realistic combats?  realistic flora and fauna?  realistic disease and infection? realistic economy? make any o' the aforementioned genuine real in a Fantasy Game, and the whole thing collapses. so why the need for genuine society that has no possible genuine analog in a fantasy setting with magic and undead and freaking monster? is there advantages to some kinds o' verisimilitude? sure is, but realism itself should no more be a goal than being different. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps just for the hell of it, consider one tiny change made possible by magic: safe and reliable birth control.  is something seeming incredible small, but imagine the impact on primitive societies all the way up to industrial age. women is no longer forced by nature to spend many o' their adult years either pregnant or rearing children. possible decreased birth rates impact societies how? women is more likely to be getting educated and using education as adults. etc. if we insert reliable birth control into poe via magic, literal everything changes. and that is just one change. am thinking magic can makes more o' a difference than some people might s'pose.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Gromnir

[Stun]

I'm not advocating stat penalties for female PCs, class limitations, ability limitations or what have you.

Why not? Didn't all of that exist? You really can't advocate an historically accurate feudal society and then just turn around and toss some of its realities out the window simply because you want to maintain gender equality for female PC's.

 

Rather I'm advocating that the setting itself depict the primitive reactionary values inherent to feudalism and its consequences on the population. That does not mean the female PC is silenced or necessarily 'limited' mind you, rather they'd have a different experience where they are far more likely to discriminated by virtue of their sex but still obviously be able to fight against that.

 

The problem I have with most fantasy setting is that they will either ignore the suffering women felt under feudalism and simply sweep the inherent misogyny of such a system under the rug or they will show feudal societies as sexist but essentially silence the female sex under the guise of "well they didn't have a voice then".

 

What I advocate is showing the misogyny of feudal society all the while exploring its actual impact on females by still showing their agency under the oppressive system.

RPGs with 100% historical accuracy don't sell worth a damn. So you'll never see a company like Obsidian making one. Besides, can you imagine how *dull* such a game would be? Edited June 28, 2014 by Stun

[Arakasi01]

 

I'm not advocating stat penalties for female PCs, class limitations, ability limitations or what have you. Rather I'm advocating that the setting itself depict the primitive reactionary values inherent to feudalism and its consequences on the population. That does not mean the female PC is silenced or necessarily 'limited' mind you, rather they'd have a different experience where they are far more likely to discriminated by virtue of their sex but still obviously be able to fight against that.

 

The problem I have with most fantasy setting is that they will either ignore the suffering women felt under feudalism and simply sweep the inherent misogyny of such a system under the rug or they will show feudal societies as sexist but essentially silence the female sex under the guise of "well they didn't have a voice then".

 

What I advocate is showing the misogyny of feudal society all the while exploring its actual impact on females by still showing their agency under the oppressive system.

RPGs with 100% historical accuracy don't sell worth a damn. So you'll never see a company like Obsidian making one. Besides, can you imagine how *dull* such a game would be?

 

 

That is so very irrelevant. He's arguing for something which would, if anything, increase the intrigue in the game.

 

As for the other point being made, I would like to hear an actual woman's opinion on whether having the sexist environment in PoE that Barothmuk described would make them feel uncomfortable or not. Somehow I doubt it would. If it would make some women uncomfortable, should there not be racism in the game then too? It might make real minorities feel uncomfortable.

 

Also, also. RPGs with historical accuracy can and do sell woth a damn, just saying.

 

[Barothmuk]

Why not? You really can't have an historically accurate feudal society without such penalties placed on females.

I wasn't arguing from a position of "historical accuracy". I was arguing from a position of structure. I.e. Reactionary attitudes towards women are an inherent part of the feudal structure.

 

Nevertheless just because the structures in place actively discouraged females from being able to do said things that doesn't mean females doing these things was in of it self impossible.

 

There's a legion of difference between a backwards feudal society having total equal rights and an individual within a primitive backwards society going against cultural norms.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Barothmuk

[Gromnir]

 

I wasn't arguing from a position of "historical accuracy". I was arguing from a position of structure. I.e. Reactionary attitudes towards women are an inherent part of the feudal structure.

 

 

such attitudes is not necessarily inherent o' a fantasy feudal system (you know, one with powerful women mages, safe and reliable birth control, etc.) and such attitudes simple might not be advantageous in a game with a fantasy feudal system.

 

*shrug*

 

but as you say, no common ground.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

 

And yet you advocate the elimination of the sexism that is inherent to the feudal system.

 

It'd be almost as silly as depicting a feudal society with the qualifier of "Oh but class conflict doesn't exist". It just doesn't make sense.

 

So I want you to give me an example in PoE of a society or town that would be designed that is going to educate or benefit the cause of understanding, for example, sexism that we don't already know or need to be presented with.

I honestly don't even know what you are trying to say here meaning you have no doubt missed my point as well (as I have missed yours).

 

 

 

I don't think I am misunderstanding you, but I want to understand exactly what you are asking for and why. I am not trying to catch you out, I asking for clarity.

 

You want Obsidian to explore themes like misogyny and racism that existed in the feudal in the interests of realism, is that not what you are suggesting?

[Stun]

I wasn't arguing from a position of "historical accuracy". I was arguing from a position of structure. I.e. Reactionary attitudes towards women are an inherent part of the feudal structure.

You do realize that PoE is not taking place on earth, yes? And that the Reactionary attitudes you want are, in fact, going to be in the game but they will likely manifest themselves in logically and understandably different ways, since the societal facts on the ground are so fundamentally different? (Unlike earth, this world happens to have Orlans, and Dwarves, and Godlikes for society to deal with)

 

Besides, Josh Sawyer did not say that the world state is Feudal without pointing out that it is also in a period of societal transition.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Stun

[Barothmuk]

I don't think I am misunderstanding you, but I want to understand exactly what you are asking for and why. I am not trying to catch you out, I asking for clarity.

Oh don't worry I'm not suspecting malice on your end or anything.

 

You want Obsidian to explore themes like misogyny and racism that existed in the feudal in the interests of realism, is that not what you are suggesting?

More or less.

 

Misogyny and patriarchy were an inherent part of the feudal structure and rather then merely sweeping that under the rug I'd rather actually explore those themes (along with all of the other similar themes mentioned by Obsidian).

[BruceVC]

 

I don't think I am misunderstanding you, but I want to understand exactly what you are asking for and why. I am not trying to catch you out, I asking for clarity.

Oh don't worry I'm not suspecting malice on your end or anything.

 

You want Obsidian to explore themes like misogyny and racism that existed in the feudal in the interests of realism, is that not what you are suggesting?

More or less.

 

Misogyny and patriarchy were an inherent part of the feudal structure and rather then merely sweeping that under the rug I'd rather actually explore those themes (along with all of the other similar themes mentioned by Obsidian).

 

 

Okay that's what I thought you were asking, sometimes I do misunderstand what people are asking.

 

This brings me to my next question, what is the reason you are asking for this? Is it

 

• purely because you want a realistic game that captures the real themes of the feudal system
• do you want to raise awareness of these types of SJ issues so at the end of the game you may have some people who think "wow sexism was bad in those days, I am glad I am opposed to it nowadays ( this is just a simplified example )
• Another reason I am not aware of

[Barothmuk]

You do realize that PoE is not taking place on earth, yes?

I fear my main point is missed because we can't get past this.

 

Yes, it is not Earth however the primary races are still incredibly human and the structures in place are still clearly analogous to already existing historical structures (i.e. slave societies, feudal societies). The impact of souls, the length of elven lives and the possible existence of gods obviously would have an impact on how these structures develop and persist (hence why I'm merely voicing my critique as a potential problem [see first post]) however so far they still seem to be largely similar.

 

Besides, Josh Sawyer did not say that the world state is Feudal without pointing out that it is also in a period of societal transition.

They have a level of technology comparable to 15th/16th century Europe; this would mean we are coming towards the decline of feudalism. Naturally this would still mean the society would be in close contact with many of its holdovers.

 

Okay that's what I thought you were asking, sometimes I do misunderstand what people are asking.

 

This brings me to my next question, what is the reason you are asking for this? Is it

 

purely because you want a realistic game that captures the real themes of the feudal system

More or less.

 

It was part of the structure hence I'd rather explore it rather than ignore it. Outside of that it's also because I'm a feminist and I find the history gender inequality and its structural manifestations interesting and worthy of examination.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Barothmuk

[Stun]

I wish we could go back to discussing Romances.

 

Wait, did I just say that?

[Gromnir]

I wish we could go back to discussing Romances.

 

Wait, did I just say that?

the "feminist" says he wants women gamers to have their characters experience misogyny... 'cause that's real... er, real in a fantasy world.  we already crossed over into the twilight zone, so don't feel bad.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

 

You do realize that PoE is not taking place on earth, yes?

I fear my main point is missed because we can't get past this.

 

Yes, it is not Earth however the primary races are still incredibly human and the structures in place are still clearly analogous to already existing historical structures (i.e. slave societies, feudal societies). The impact of souls, the length of elven lives and the possible existence of gods obviously would have an impact on how these structures develop and persist (hence why I'm merely voicing my critique as a potential problem [see first post]) however so far they still seem to be largely similar.

 

Besides, Josh Sawyer did not say that the world state is Feudal without pointing out that it is also in a period of societal transition.

They have a level of technology comparable to 15th/16th century Europe; this would mean we are coming towards the decline of feudalism. Naturally this would still mean the society would be in close contact with many of its holdovers.

 

Okay that's what I thought you were asking, sometimes I do misunderstand what people are asking.

 

This brings me to my next question, what is the reason you are asking for this? Is it

 

purely because you want a realistic game that captures the real themes of the feudal system

More or less.

 

It was part of the structure hence I'd rather explore it rather than ignore it. Outside of that it's also because I'm a feminist and I find the history gender inequality and its structural manifestations interesting and worthy of examination.

 

 

Okay thanks for explaining. I am also a feminist and take issues of social justice seriously so for me if we can raise issues of SJ through gaming then I would support that

 

But I understand your primary reason for wanting this is for realism. So for me the question is really does a person want a realistic game that does follow the avenue of feudal realism? Apart from the fact this represents realism it may even raise awareness and help causes like feminism

 

My experience has been it even if it depicts realism it will receive more misplaced criticism because I don't think any software company can depict issues like feudal misogyny in way that will be seen as being overall positive to the cause of sexism. In other words people will misunderstand the intention and you will have other feminists criticizing Obsidian for portraying women in a demeaning way ( or other minority groups ). I just don't think its worth the possible negative publicity

 

I hope I am making sense

[BruceVC]

I wish we could go back to discussing Romances.

 

Wait, did I just say that?

 

Yaaaaaaay, Stun did you know I love discussing Romance ?

[Barothmuk]

the "feminist" says he wants women gamers to have their characters experience misogyny.

Quite a crass depiction of my point. You chauvinistically assume all women do not wish to explore themes of sexism inherent to feudal societies and you naively believe people only play as their own sex.

 

Anyways I too am tired of this argument (for tonight at least) and am going to bed.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Barothmuk

[Gromnir]

 

the "feminist" says he wants women gamers to have their characters experience misogyny.

Quite a crass depiction of my point. You chauvinistically assume all women do not wish to explore themes of sexism inherent to feudal societies and you naively believe people only play as their own sex.

 

Anyways I too am tired of this argument (for tonight at least) and am going to bed.

 

and you chauvinistically believe that they should have misogyny forced 'pon them in the game?  being confronted with your own hypocrisy is a hoot, no?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps how many people do you actually see being specific interested in sexism in feudal societies? 

Edited June 28, 2014 by Gromnir

[BruceVC]

 

the "feminist" says he wants women gamers to have their characters experience misogyny.

Quite a crass depiction of my point. You chauvinistically assume all women do not wish to explore themes of sexism inherent to feudal societies and you naively believe people only play as their own sex.

 

Anyways I too am tired of this argument (for tonight at least) and am going to bed.

 

 

To be fair Gromnir he isn't saying that

 

 You could use a game to raise awareness of a SJ issue and it could also be realistic. For example the movie "12 years as a slave " was all about slavery but you left that movie with the reinforced fact of how appalling slavery was. So you can use various mediums to raise awareness which is a good thing

 

I just think a game isn't the best way to do it because of the gaming culture and how people interpret things , but I may be wrong