Update 80: State of the Project - From Alpha to Beta

[Darji]

Regarding update, it looks really good and I'm very happy everything's on track and heading to release.

 

However, as someone previously stated, I'm not entirely happy with the fact that the backers have to wait to see the presentation of the game (and what's worse, in not defined future), while the press has already seen it. As the backers were ones who made the development of PoE possible, in my opinion they should have the opportunity to see the presentation first, or at least the same time as the press. It's good to remember that it's not the same thing as with some AAA, publisher-driven titles, so the approach also should be different, even on marketing level.

The whole presentation is maybe a bit too much to ask since they will also explain basic stuff they already told us but at least some kind of footage at the same time would have been nice. This is really frustrating especially during E3.  This year for example with MGSV and Bloodborne. All we got to see where some CG and 5 minute trailer without any gameplay at all while the press got a 30+ minute  demonstration. People who do not even care much about these games or even reported badly about the whole game (Quite Accident for example) . Not even like 5 minutes of this footage.

 

And what happens because of this. People now leaked a very early trailer of Bloodborne which was supposed to be shown at last years TGS. Which looks even worse than the stuff they showed the press at this years E3.  So yeah there is definitely a marketing problem. There. 

 

With kickstarter I had hoped it would be a bit more different. And many developers actually do this. they release alphas, show very early gameplay (Wasteland 2 for example) and explain these backers what is going to change so these people can understand that this is not final at all. And people really dig and appreciate these video updates. Sadly this does not happen with this game which is a damn shame since I believe this one has the chance to be very special for many people in the end. 

 

I really feels sometimes as a second class person even I undoubtedly love and support these games way more than these journalists do.  Nintendo did a really really good job in this regard at this years E3. It is very rare that I actually praise everything Nintendo does. But it seems they have at least understood this actually pretty simple matter.  These kind of games do not need the press at all.  Because fans can market this game way better than any journalist can do. 

Edited June 13, 2014 by Darji

[Tenebrael]

@Darji

 

Well, the situation between AAA publishers and gamers/journalists are a bit different. In this case gamers didn't pay anything (yet) so it's totally up to the publisher what will be shown to whom and when. However, in case of KS projects, the backers are the group which made the development process possible and in my opinion they should be put in the 1st place when it comes to release any info or show a presentation of a game. If they;re not, it looks like "we took your money, now shut up and wait patiently for your turn and our good will to show you anything".

 

Maybe it's strongly said, but well, it can look that way. I hope it was just a single fail and Obsidian will show us what they've shown the press imediately.

[Darji]

@Darji

 

Well, the situation between AAA publishers and gamers/journalists are a bit different. In this case gamers didn't pay anything (yet) so it's totally up to the publisher what will be shown to whom and when. However, in case of KS projects, the backers are the group which made the development process possible and in my opinion they should be put in the 1st place when it comes to release any info or show a presentation of a game. If they;re not, it looks like "we took your money, now shut up and wait patiently for your turn and our good will to show you anything".

 

Maybe it's strongly said, but well, it can look that way. I hope it was just a single fail and Obsidian will show us what they've shown the press imediately.

 

 

Oh yeah of course. I just find it really sad  with AAA games but with kickstarter games I really expect this now. I backed quite a few RPGs and they all do a much better job than Obsidian in this regard.  If you look at Wasteland 2 or especially Divinity: Original sins. They do such a fantastic job to communicate with people and show their progress a lot in video updates. They do not spoiler anything but you really get a feel of the world they created, the system they have build and all other mechanics and skills in this game. 

 

It is really a joy and thx to that I even raised my pledge, because  I really feel like taking part in their progress. I do not feel left out at all.  I also bet Obsidian will forbid any beta streams on twitch as well. Which really shows that they need to learn a lot about this issue.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Darji

[rjshae]

@Darji

 

Well, the situation between AAA publishers and gamers/journalists are a bit different. In this case gamers didn't pay anything (yet) so it's totally up to the publisher what will be shown to whom and when. However, in case of KS projects, the backers are the group which made the development process possible and in my opinion they should be put in the 1st place when it comes to release any info or show a presentation of a game. If they;re not, it looks like "we took your money, now shut up and wait patiently for your turn and our good will to show you anything".

 

Maybe it's strongly said, but well, it can look that way. I hope it was just a single fail and Obsidian will show us what they've shown the press imediately.

 

For all you know the presentation showed spoilers that some of us don't want to see yet. We will all see the product at some point; you're all getting exactly what you paid for, which is a game. The entertainment is extra, and it is basically up to the developers, and their public relations, as to what they show and to whom.

[Darji]

 

@Darji

 

Well, the situation between AAA publishers and gamers/journalists are a bit different. In this case gamers didn't pay anything (yet) so it's totally up to the publisher what will be shown to whom and when. However, in case of KS projects, the backers are the group which made the development process possible and in my opinion they should be put in the 1st place when it comes to release any info or show a presentation of a game. If they;re not, it looks like "we took your money, now shut up and wait patiently for your turn and our good will to show you anything".

 

Maybe it's strongly said, but well, it can look that way. I hope it was just a single fail and Obsidian will show us what they've shown the press imediately.

 

For all you know the presentation showed spoilers that some of us don't want to see yet. We will all see the product at some point; you're all getting exactly what you paid for, which is a game. The entertainment is extra, and it is basically up to the developers, and their public relations, as to what they show and to whom.

 

Then show us some random encounter from early in the game and done. This excuse is pretty weak.  And yeah I will get what I paid for but that does not mean I will support more and future projects because I really do not like how they handle this situation while so many and even much smaller studios do it so much better. This is no AAA top secret project but they are really treating it like that.  Which is just sad in my opinion.

[NWN_babaYaga]

I have no problem with the way obsidian handles this "issue" as some think that there is one... i dont see myself now less valuable then the press now just by the way they are doing what they do. They might have a reason .. well there is always a reason for anything and we ALL know that we made it possible that PE is going to be developed. And like rjshae said we paid for the game and we get the game they told us and thats what i see realy matters in the end. That the game itself will be what we thought could rock the RPG genre again and here we are, witnessing how great the game comes together. And i was never so satisfied with updates how a game comes together as here with obsidian. I totaly changed my oppinion regarding them as a Team too just by being "part" of this game so to say

 

Not that i dont understand some feelings regarding this press/ showcase stuff but right now i´m personaly very happy with everything. And well, thats very rare these days to be honest. I dont give a damn about most of the games and way less about what devs or publishers talk how cool their so called rpg´s will be. Skyrim sucked, Dragon ages suxs even more and there are many others which are just dull, boring and silly etc. imo! The last RPG game i "understood" or where i was realy sucked into was the witcher 1. Before that nwn and gothic 2. Either i have lost the case for most of the RPG´s these days or they suck plain and simple! :D

 

And to compare one studio with another one how they manage their PR work is somewhat ...well. Every person or studio has their own principles or guidelines they follow and i´m happy with that. I dont want everything acts like every other.

Edited June 13, 2014 by NWN_babaYaga

[rjshae]

 

 

@Darji

 

Well, the situation between AAA publishers and gamers/journalists are a bit different. In this case gamers didn't pay anything (yet) so it's totally up to the publisher what will be shown to whom and when. However, in case of KS projects, the backers are the group which made the development process possible and in my opinion they should be put in the 1st place when it comes to release any info or show a presentation of a game. If they;re not, it looks like "we took your money, now shut up and wait patiently for your turn and our good will to show you anything".

 

Maybe it's strongly said, but well, it can look that way. I hope it was just a single fail and Obsidian will show us what they've shown the press imediately.

 

For all you know the presentation showed spoilers that some of us don't want to see yet. We will all see the product at some point; you're all getting exactly what you paid for, which is a game. The entertainment is extra, and it is basically up to the developers, and their public relations, as to what they show and to whom.

Then show us some random encounter from early in the game and done. This excuse is pretty weak.  And yeah I will get what I paid for but that does not mean I will support more and future projects because I really do not like how they handle this situation while so many and even much smaller studios do it so much better. This is no AAA top secret project but they are really treating it like that.  Which is just sad in my opinion.

 

Ah, rubbish. They've fed us plenty of information. I'd much rather they spend their time building a good game than wasting lots of energy trying to slake a few poster's sense of entitlement. We'll all see the same results in the end.

[Darji]

 

 

 

@Darji

 

Well, the situation between AAA publishers and gamers/journalists are a bit different. In this case gamers didn't pay anything (yet) so it's totally up to the publisher what will be shown to whom and when. However, in case of KS projects, the backers are the group which made the development process possible and in my opinion they should be put in the 1st place when it comes to release any info or show a presentation of a game. If they;re not, it looks like "we took your money, now shut up and wait patiently for your turn and our good will to show you anything".

 

Maybe it's strongly said, but well, it can look that way. I hope it was just a single fail and Obsidian will show us what they've shown the press imediately.

 

For all you know the presentation showed spoilers that some of us don't want to see yet. We will all see the product at some point; you're all getting exactly what you paid for, which is a game. The entertainment is extra, and it is basically up to the developers, and their public relations, as to what they show and to whom.

Then show us some random encounter from early in the game and done. This excuse is pretty weak.  And yeah I will get what I paid for but that does not mean I will support more and future projects because I really do not like how they handle this situation while so many and even much smaller studios do it so much better. This is no AAA top secret project but they are really treating it like that.  Which is just sad in my opinion.

 

Ah, rubbish. They've fed us plenty of information. I'd much rather they spend their time building a good game than wasting lots of energy trying to slake a few poster's sense of entitlement. We'll all see the same results in the end.

 

They have not shown any gameplay at all while the press got this opportunity several times already.  And yeah wasting a 30 minute demo on journalists is ok but making maybe a 5 minute demo for the people who financed this game in the first place is too much to ask? 

[Sensuki]

We'll get to see one when the animations and FX are a bit more polished. Journalists are used to seeing stuff in an unfinished state, the general public isn't.

 

Wouldn't want a bunch of people complaining about sloppy animations to be the main comment for the video

[Darji]

We'll get to see one when the animations and FX are a bit more polished. Journalists are used to seeing stuff in an unfinished state, the general public isn't.

 

Wouldn't want a bunch of people complaining about sloppy animations to be the main comment for the video

Yeah because we are stupid and telling us that this is work in prgress did totally mislead all the Divinity and Wasteland 2 backers.... Oh wait it did not. 

 

I love Obsidian and their games but next time I will just buy the game when it is done and support actaully developer that value me more and do not shove me aside. 

Edited June 13, 2014 by Darji

[NWN_babaYaga]

 

We'll get to see one when the animations and FX are a bit more polished. Journalists are used to seeing stuff in an unfinished state, the general public isn't.

 

Wouldn't want a bunch of people complaining about sloppy animations to be the main comment for the video

Yeah because we are stupid and telling us that this is work in prgress did totally mislead all the Divinity and Wasteland 2 backers.... Oh wait it did not. 

 

I love Obsidian and their games but next time I will just buy the game when it is done and support actaully developer that value me more and do not shove me aside. I really need to look at if I can back out of Torment and get my money back and instead give it to other developers. 

 

You sound abit personaly hurt and i realy wonder why. I mean you and me and all we here are just people who wanted this game and not the control of the way how obsidian does their work right? And i dont understand why you tell everyone you dont want to back this then and want your money back... people who tells everything what they are gonna do about it as some kind of revenge are pretty childish imo. Not that i want to sound to rude but the way you express yourself is realy a bit over the top as a adult dont you think?

Edited June 13, 2014 by NWN_babaYaga

[Sensuki]

Wasteland 2 and Divinity Original Sin don't have an NDA on the story/themes either. 

 

One of the mistakes Brian Fargo made was going and telling everyone about stuff in the game, only to find that upon beta release it was like literally the only example of such content in the game (such as examples of reactivity he gave in talks being the _ONLY_ examples in the game at the start of the beta ... which was a joke).

 

I'd love to have seen a 15-20 min gameplay video long before this, but I understand the reason why Obsidian haven't done one yet. We will get one. Just have to wait a bit longer.

[Darji]

 

 

We'll get to see one when the animations and FX are a bit more polished. Journalists are used to seeing stuff in an unfinished state, the general public isn't.

 

Wouldn't want a bunch of people complaining about sloppy animations to be the main comment for the video

Yeah because we are stupid and telling us that this is work in prgress did totally mislead all the Divinity and Wasteland 2 backers.... Oh wait it did not. 

 

I love Obsidian and their games but next time I will just buy the game when it is done and support actaully developer that value me more and do not shove me aside. I really need to look at if I can back out of Torment and get my money back and instead give it to other developers. 

 

You sound abit personaly hurt and i realy wonder why. I mean you and me and all we here are just people who wanted this game right and not the control of the way obsidian does their work. And i dont understand why you tell everyone you dont want to back this then and want your money back... people who tells everything what they are gonna do about it as some kind of revenge are pretty childish imo. Not that i want to sound to rude but the way you express yourself is realy a bit over the top as a adult dont you think?

 

It is not about revenge. It is about not believe something anymore.  Again I will still buy these games from obsidian but I will not back them anymore since I think it is wrong to prioritize the press and give nothing to backers at all. No one demands anything ridiculous. And I think like 5 minutes of gameplay  which is still pretty small is not too much to ask to make for the people who actually made this whole game possible in the first plade. 

 

Doing a kickstarter means more communication and in my opinion I think they are not doing this at all.  Again I bet they will not even allow beta streams when it is out for backers.  This alone shows how outdated their understanding is in this regard. Obsidian makes great games but they do a really ****ty job promoting it. Maybe that is why their games sadly do not sell that well in the first place. 

 

This NDA alone is just bad marketing in my opinion. And whoever  had that idea in the first place needs to be fired...

Edited June 13, 2014 by Darji

[Sensuki]

It wasn't for marketing purposes, Josh Sawyer decided on it in 2012. Good idea too because the most annoying thing about lots of game previews is they give the story away before you even play the game.

 

An anecdote:

 

I'd read all of the sample chapters and some transcriptions of chapters read by George R. R. Martin at conventions before A Dance with Dragons came out. So when I finally got the book I'd already read like 80% of the first 12 chapters in it. So that was a bit of a drag having to read that again and I think it lessened my enjoyment of the book overall as well. It's the only ASoIaF book I haven't been able to bring myself to re-read (not solely because of that, but I do think it ended up affecting my opinion of the book overall).

Edited June 13, 2014 by Sensuki

[Darji]

It wasn't for marketing purposes, Josh Sawyer decided on it in 2012. Good idea too because the most annoying thing about lots of game previews is they give the story away before you even play the game.

If you can not show anything than it is not a good idea at all.  We also do not know much about the story in Divinity or Wasteland as well since they only have released a small part of the game for testing.  So that excuse is pretty weak. Don't you think?

 

Also If you don't want to be spoilered dont read spoilers?  Its not like some internet trolls are so interested in a hardcore RPG and spoil the whole game for you. Eternity is no AAA game aferall. 

Edited June 13, 2014 by Darji

[Sensuki]

We actually know quite a lot about the Wasteland 2 story (pretty much everything except the ending) but I have actually really enjoyed the Divinity videos, early access and all that. Original Sin is a bit more sandboxy and is a lot further along in development than PE is (they were developing it for years before the Kickstarter).

 

You don't have to understand or agree with Obsidian's methods of doing things, so I'm not going to bother arguing about it.

 

Edited June 13, 2014 by Sensuki

[Darji]

We actually know quite a lot about the Wasteland 2 story (pretty much everything except the ending) but I have actually really enjoyed the Divinity videos, early access and all that. Original Sin is a bit more sandboxy and is a lot further along in development than PE is (they were developing it for years before the Kickstarter).

 

You don't have to understand or agree with Obsidian's methods of doing things, so I'm not going to bother arguing about it.

 

 

Don't you think that there is something wrong when the only thing you need to get into these presentation is to have some popular YouTube channel while "normal" people can not get any info or material at all?  Hell I even could pretend to be an Indy game developer to get a badge for E3 and I could go into these presentations.  What makes these people special?  In my opinion nothing at all. And I do not think that I am a second class fan just because I do not lie or have some YouTube channel....

[Sensuki]

They don't dictate who gets into E3 though ?

 

One of the fans from another forum got in (because he's somehow related to the games industry) but he's had to sign an NDA and he can't talk about the game until the NDA is lifted (next thursday for E3 impressions).

Edited June 13, 2014 by Sensuki

[Beholder]

Thank you for the update, from what i read everything is shapping up nicely ! Good to hear fellows ! I guess the next update will show how those parts fits together.As for the people asking for having a complete view of the beta i'd say " Patience and the fullness of time do more than force or fury"-La Fontaine (Jean de)-

 

Also i want to point this :

Our character artists have completed all of the creatures and creature variants we planned for the game (and even a few that we hadn't planned on)

More of the underlined part ! pretty please !

 

Once more, thanks and keep up the good work !

[Tenebrael]

Well, imho Kickstarter is not only about fundraising. People back projects also because they want to take part in the whole process, be able to monitor it and for the transparency, for which KS projects are famous for. It's not only about money, it's about mentality and transparency.

 

So, what some of You say (that Obsidian promised only a game, nothing more) is technically true. But it means KS turned here to be only the platform for very early pre-orders, nothing more.

 

And I repeat - this doesn't mean I hate Obsidian, hate PoE or am angry at them or want to un-back other projects they take part of. It means I'm just a little dissapointed that the VIP-like treatment of the backers ended when the funds were raised, and now it all goes similar to "normal" AAA titles, with NDAs, press-first attitude, and "stay tunned" mantra. Just that.

[curryinahurry]

^ Actually,  if you had spent time on these forums over the past few years participating in topics and reading updates, you would realize that the folks at Obsidian have remarkably transparent.  There have been several instances where the developers have come to the forums to seek out direct input from the community, or changed a mechanic because of feedback from an update.  There have been candid discussions between us backers and the developers that has led to changes in mechanics, attribute designations, etc.  It has been a really fascinating process for someone like me to view and participate in.

 

You seem to have more of a consumer's mentality towards the issue of information and transparency; you need to see executed product to feel you are getting your money's worth.  That is a valid position, but it's only one of many avenues available to Obsidian to communicate with, and get feedback from their backers.  The fact that they have chosen other methods of interacting with us doesn't lessen their commitment to engaging the community.

[Sensuki]

The developer posts (particularly Josh Sawyers - on here and Something Awful) are really, really good. And you don't find many developers who interact with the community like that.

[Darji]

^ Actually,  if you had spent time on these forums over the past few years participating in topics and reading updates, you would realize that the folks at Obsidian have remarkably transparent.  There have been several instances where the developers have come to the forums to seek out direct input from the community, or changed a mechanic because of feedback from an update.  There have been candid discussions between us backers and the developers that has led to changes in mechanics, attribute designations, etc.  It has been a really fascinating process for someone like me to view and participate in.

 

You seem to have more of a consumer's mentality towards the issue of information and transparency; you need to see executed product to feel you are getting your money's worth.  That is a valid position, but it's only one of many avenues available to Obsidian to communicate with, and get feedback from their backers.  The fact that they have chosen other methods of interacting with us doesn't lessen their commitment to engaging the community.

Other developers do that as well. And yes i want transparency. I want something to get excited about. Something I feel good about to have backed. And sadly  I really do not get it with this game and company.  Changing skills, numbers or mechanics do not mean anything to me as long I can not see them in a video or by playing it.  So all the stuff eople discuss about is hypothetical which have no meaning as long you can not see it integrated in a game. 

 

Talking to people is fine. Even Bioware does this. The problem is showing the things you change and integrate into a game.  A visual feedback.  Again go and watch all these divinity logs and go to their forums. In their forums they do at least the same as here maybe even more. But the huge difference is the visual  approach. Same goes for Wasteland. 

[NWN_babaYaga]

Strong is the dark force in the above me one. I feel your anger.. dont hold it back... let it take over you and let me complete your training my dark consumer. We two will rule the galaxy for ever.

 

Well, i think you made yourself very clear by representing yourself being "pi**sed" about that more then 6 or 7 times by now... so obsidian is aware that you WANT it your own way only. I mean we are at update 80 right, isnt that a lot already. And you dont want to accept that obsidian definately has a REASON for why they do this. And now you even dismiss the game... well have faith in the dark force then little consumer, it will make you much more upset later once you play it and it is nice...

[sesobebo]

itt people who were willing to give money for the benefit of the game, are not willing to wait a week [for the benefit of the game]...