(mini?) Update tomorrow / PE E3 stuff

[Osvir]

https://twitter.com/thedesslock/status/477852586184548352
Used to write columns for PC Gamer...? Found a forum post from 2012 saying he isn't working with them, I don't know. Can't find any PC Gamer columns with him anyways. Lots of Obsidian people follow him nonetheless (on twitter). Can't tell if he was at E3 or not, but he's hyping it

EDIT: Albeit Dragon Age has established itself over the years and over the installments, don't forget one of it's main selling points and big marketing push for them was "Baldur's Gate spiritual successor". I know, because I followed Dragon Age: Origins and participated in community almost as much as I commit to Pillars of Eternity (this was before the game had shipped).

In that sense, I actually believe Pillars of Eternity can stand toe-to-toe against Dragon Age.

I totally agree about "The Witcher", though, it is looking fantastic. I'm not a huge Witcher series fan, but I like what they are and have been doing and what I am and have been seeing and hearing... I just... I don't have the energy

Edited June 14, 2014 by Osvir

[Lephys]

Because many people just do not care without video footage.

Well, since we're never going to get any video footage, I guess many people will just never care about this game. I know if I don't see some video footage soon, I'm going to go ahead and pre-order every other game in existence that has shown video footage, then never even install PoE or play it. u_u

 

It's not like I go home the night of updates and tell my girlfriend (who's barely a gamer) all about how cool the game looks because of some class mechanics or spiffy graphics engine technicalities they've presented.

 

I need video... WITH EXPLOSIONS!

 

Also, we should probably always just worry about what irrational people do, then cater to that. That'll make the world a better place, in the long run.

 

Heaven forbid the majority of people stop caring about a game until they're shown video of a human sacrifice or something. "Better get some spare people in here... don't wanna fall behind in random people's eyes!"

[Leferd]

https://twitter.com/thedesslock/status/477852586184548352

Used to write columns for PC Gamer...? Found a forum post from 2012 saying he isn't working with them, I don't know. Can't find any PC Gamer columns with him anyways. Lots of Obsidian people follow him nonetheless (on twitter). Can't tell if he was at E3 or not, but he's hyping it

That's Desslock. He wrote influential reviews and excellent online guides for the old IE games.

[nipsen]

PCGamer US back in the day, yes? ..hopefully he has changed his tastes a bit since then, or it's going to be bad :D

 

I don't know. I said this in the DoubleFine kickstarter as well. That they should treat the reviewers with the courtesy they deserve, and nothing more. They do not represent anyone, they are not the designers, and they shouldn't be catered to. And if a typical, successful reviewer now hypes a game, odds are that no one who backed PoE is going to look at the game, not even sideways. If Moriarty and Greg over at IGN positively hates the game, that's of course not going to be good for sustaining the "buzz" -- but will Obsidian truly lose anything by being slammed for making an old-school game for PC only? Could be that's music to the ears of people who would never read IGN, and just become angry if they did.

 

So my suggestion was to deliberately use other primary channels than the normal review-channels. To use critical reviewers, have a dialogue with them, to use youtube, to start promotion sites, to pick advertisement avenues where you would be likely to hit people who were into games 5+ years ago. And then to favor users with a timely release, so that you wouldn't get the "early review" focus. Instead having major review-sites release the reviews at the same time that other players would be able to. Youtube rants and early looks also will obviously compete with the early reviews.

 

Specially with games that have a lot of playtime. You kind of know that the deadline is going to mean the reviewers will skip parts or avoid exploring anything in depth. And they won't say that in the reviews, to avoid sounding superficial.. and without anyone else able to play the game, that view is going to be just standing there. All kinds of spare time driven sites are also going to lose if the review-sites get early builds. And when you're releasing perhaps a month later than IGN, you kind of don't even want to bother spreading your review around anyway. You just post it and you're happy with 30 hits.

 

I just think it's worthwhile to think about that the reason why this game can't be made together with a publisher, is that the way games are sold now just doesn't allow for a text-heavy game that rewards some thinking. Games like that just don't fit into the "new journalism" convention where you clinically remove any kind of actual analysis or description, in the name of making the writing more appealing. You know, like a travel column that could be written for any city in any country.

 

To actually write a good review of a long-winded rpg then, that requires the reviewer to spend a lot of time with the game, think about what the game really wants to convey, what the journey actually is - and then write about it in an eloquent way.

 

So not relying exclusively on that happening at IGN, at a deadline, might be a good idea.

[nikolokolus]

 

 

If backers also could get way more excited about the game. You know the people who made this whole thing possible. 

You're right, you're the only one that cares about the game.

 

I never said that. I was talking about all the backers that do not participate in these forums, all these people that already have forgotten about this game because there is no exposure at all except a few screens and 2-3 articles.  More people are excited about a Dragon Age 3 right now than about pillars and why? Because they have seen the game. They have seen and heard developer talking about the mechanics while showing gameplay.  Audio Visual concepts are way more exciting than some screens and tons of text most people will not even read to begin with. 

 

But yeah lets wait till Thursday and look at the comment section of these articles. With maybe 100 or even less comments.  Because many people just do not care without video footage. 

 

 

The backers have already paid all of the money they are going to for Pillars of Eternity; what difference does it make if Obsidian gets that group excited? I mean, sure, we'd all like to see more and feel like our money was well spent, but getting us excited doesn't translate to exposing the game to a wider audience.

 

As for your assertion that DA:I is more anticipated than PoE because there's more of it to see in the form of trailers and splashy videos, I think you're missing cause and effect. DA:I is more anticipated because it is much larger franchise, built for a wider general audience. Obsidian could release all of the gameplay videos in the world and PoE would still be a small, niche game with a much different target demographic.

[LordCrash]

I'm already looking forward to the Pillars of Eternity interview done by AngryJoe at E3. I'm curious if has asked whether the game is like Diablo or not.... 

 

Just kidding, since he mostly asked question directly posted by his followers (and PoE fans/backers) I guess the questions were rather good. 

Edited June 14, 2014 by LordCrash

[Natas]

 

 

So some video game journalist who don't really give a **** about PoE

Please do spout that hipster BS somewhere else, you'll find it's not really taken to kindly here.

 

 

To be honest, I backed them because it seemed like they really wanted to change the game industry. At least that was part of my motivation why I backed them on that level.

They were pretty straight-forward. They said they wanted to make an original IP, and that this was one of their only options to do so.

 

You can feel "betrayed" all you want, but it really just sounds like you spent a lot of money and now you are realizing you shouldn't have.

Now I know that it was just to get my money. Nothing else. 

Again: you just have buyer's remorse. Obsidian are some of the most dedicated people in this industry.

But they didn't even want to change behaviour of the style and politics of game development in the first place it seems. 

And how, pray tell, would they have done that? They run their business the way they want. If you thought you were funding some sort of revolution... I'd go back to dreaming of a glorious industry crash that will surely bring world peace.

Good games are not about marketing. Good games always sell. 

Do you also think that if you're good and pure of heart you'll get everything you want just because? That you can get any job you want just because?

 

By the way, what do you think the Kickstarter was if not marketing?

 

What do you call 79 updates if not transparency?

 

 

You're right about everything. I feel remorse for my pledge. Totally true. And yeah, you might call me a dreamer or whatever you want but I did hope for a change.

 

The 79 updates so far were only "talking" without ANY real gameplay so far. That's what games are all about. You can write lore all day and explain how you plan to do stuff and everything. But nothing is as honest and clear as gameplay. And that's what they've shown to the journalists first.

 

So yeah, I'm disillusionised now, thanks.

 

And I can write as many "hipster bs" as I want. I'm not here to make any friends or to please anyone. Are you the forum's official advocate here, anyway?

 

What do you want man? You want to see the whole game before its realesed? Be mad at yourself and not the company, there doing there best to promote and sell the game and make there customers happy and just because you feel bad about spending 500$$ thats no reson to bad mouth the company over a desision you should have put more thought into.

[LordCrash]

What do you want man? You want to see the whole game before its realesed? Be mad at yourself and not the company, there doing there best to promote and sell the game and make there customers happy and just because you feel bad about spending 500$$ thats no reson to bad mouth the company over a desision you should have put more thought into.

 

 

I want them to show me SOME gameplay, an actual proof that the game is on the way to what they promised us in the first place. I think as backers we could demand more than screenshots, art design and write-ups. The vertical slice was finished months ago and still we haven't seen even a single minute of gameplay so far. They told us that they don't want to show us anything because of spoilers. I say bull****. Why can't we see just a small combat encounter for one or two minutes? How could that include serious spoilers? And even if: kickstarter was also about shared development. It's up to each individual if one want to spoil something for themselves or take part in alpha/beta or whatever. There is no reason to hide stuff from backers because of spoilers or "unfinished polish". Of course it's unpolished. It's in alpha stage. Every sane backer/person knows that. So why do they share stuff with the press for weeks now but not with us backers? There is no good reason for that other than staying true to their traditional closed development rules. That's disappointing. I want to take part in this and see how far they actually are in development. I want to see it with my own eyes. Everyone could write something up, that's nice but nothing profound. Gameplay is profound. Actual and real game material. I never said though that I want to "see the whole game before its released." That's an unsustainable accusation...

Edited June 15, 2014 by LordCrash

[Sensuki]

We'll get one, just have to wait a bit longer (my guess is a couple months). Won't be seeing much until beta.

Edited June 15, 2014 by Sensuki

[Galomtala]

 

I want them to show me SOME gameplay, an actual proof that the game is on the way to what they promised us in the first place. 

 

 

For our money, Obsidian promised us to make a game they want, the way they want (including marketing). Back then, this promise was enough for you. Why have you lost confidence in Obsidian now? Because Obsidian shows a video to the press and not to you?

There are KS where you can pledge to get all the press releases, created builds and so on. But Obsidian never promised this. They promised insights in to the development process, and with 80 Updates and hundreds of forum posts by the developers they delivered this (in my view, you may think otherwise).

[talharbash]

It is unfortunate they're showing the press game play and not the backers, yes.

 

I haven't lost faith. I just think it's in poor taste.

[LordCrash]

It is unfortunate they're showing the press game play and not the backers, yes.

 

I haven't lost faith. I just think it's in poor taste.

This.

 

I haven't lost my faith in the game I have lost some of my faith (and patience tbh) in Obsidian in being a really fan-and-backer-friendly developer. I'm still very much looking forward to Pillars of Eternity but I probably won't back any future project of Obsidian on kickstarter with "big money" anymore.

 

Again, this "spoiler argument" brought up by Obsidian makes absolutely no sense. Why spoilering something to journalists and denying backers the option to decide for themselves whether they want to see the stuff and "get spoilt" or not? And why is a pure combat encounter spoiling anything? I just don't get it why they can't show us something yet and we have to have another few weeks...

 

That's how I currently feel. Maybe I feel much better again once I've seen the game in action. Who knows...

[Osvir]

I kind of sort of agree with LordCrash partially on one specific aspect... and that's the combat...

If Obsidian showed combat at E3 in the demo, if they have all the animation in place, and if they have spoiler-free combat footage (no boss/VIP character, just some wolves/imp/spider/monster-type) somewhere in the E3 demo, and even if it is 5-10 seconds... what is the harm in showing something like that to us... if something like that exists? (lots of IF'S).

I believe what they are doing is strategically sound and wise, though. A bit frustrating and emotional (in an eager, impatient, childish yet positive, excited, and cheerful way ), sure, I believe it is because we care 

Edited June 15, 2014 by Osvir

[PrimeJunta]

Man, if any thread ever needed a whaambulance, it's this one. Grow up people. In the meantime, pass the ointment.

[IndiraLightfoot]

[Lephys]

I gotta say, it's your decision to make, LordCrash, but basing your decision of whether-or-not to fund a developer's projects in the future, and/or how much to fund them, on the simple fact that they actually partook in E3 just like everyone else and we didn't get our hands in a particular candy dish first is quite petty.

 

Granted, I'm not telling you you should, specifically, gratuitously fund them. I'm just saying, whether you do or don't, or how much, should be based on much better factors.

 

You're funding the game's production, not the game's revolution around you. Even at the $10,000 tier, there was nothing in there that says "comes with additional guarantee of entitlement." They just got to design some cool content and whatnot. They don't get to alter Obsidian's decisions of what to show to whom, and when. And I bet none of them are like "Awww, man... if I had known the press would get to see some unknown footage that I'll still get to see but just not right this moment, I would've only backed at the $50 level."

 

Maybe they need to put a disclaimer on the next Kickstarter: "Assumptions are not included in reward tiers."

[Ink Blot]

Granted, I'm not telling you you should, specifically, gratuitously fund them. I'm just saying, whether you do or don't, or how much, should be based on much better factors.

Indeed. Personally, whether or not I back another Obsidian kickstarter for big dollars will depend solely on what PoE turns out to be like. If it's all that they said they would do, then they'll see (much) more of my money on another kickstarter. If not, they won't. Simple as that. I don't personally care when I get to see gameplay footage. I care about the end product.

[nipsen]

Still think it's unwise for Obsidian to even spend resources on proposing to the industry partners this way, though. They have other titles they know will generate at least some buzz. But they didn't get a trailer pushed in with MS or Sony, and I haven't seen PoE even mentioned anywhere. So if it took development time to prepare a demo, it's not going to be worth it.

 

Like I said - there's a very good reason why you see very specific types of game promoted at e3. Even things like No Man's Sky, which is spectacular in every possible way... given that you like games, or intelligent programming, or know anything about how difficult it is to realize a design like that... never gets mentioned. Because it belongs to something the people who attend e3 know doesn't generate common appeal. See that tendency over and over again, even with games that people with press-passes admit they are impossibly impressed with. Because the expectation that they will have larger appeal to their readers is thought to be nil.

 

So just watch. If PoE gets any press post E3, it will be some sort of snarky, hardcore d&d grinder who describes it as the death-throes of the isometric rpg-game. Making a point of how real time combat is Obsidian's kneefalling attempt to woo "modern gamers". While then moving on to a first-person time-waster as if it's the second coming of Christ in the next feature.

[Lephys]

^ Explain Bastion, then. It took home about 1,000 awards the year it debuted at E3, and went on to be a huge success, despite being nothing like the mainstream AAA titles.

[Galomtala]

So just watch. If PoE gets any press post E3, it will be some sort of snarky, hardcore d&d grinder who describes it as the death-throes of the isometric rpg-game. Making a point of how real time combat is Obsidian's kneefalling attempt to woo "modern gamers". While then moving on to a first-person time-waster as if it's the second coming of Christ in the next feature.

 

Lets see this next week, after the press embargo is lifted.

[nipsen]

Because it had a known format, and they sold it on the colorful visual style and the unique narrative-driven approach. Next gen platformer in HD. It's something that looks like Braid. It's something that looks like something that has already been successful. It doesn't matter that the game itself was great in all kinds of ways that we would never know from the coverage. What matters is that the pitch they choose and the presentation they had at E3 will represent something thought to generate some appeal.

 

It's also a point that until it started getting all those rewards and "outsider" notices several places, the utterly uninteresting Valve stuff, etc., there were actually very few features done on that game.

 

Anyway, case in point with PoE:

 

 

But since fantasy's isometric halcyon days, the genre has moved on. Fantasy games aren't niche retoolings of Dungeons and Dragons anymore – now the industry's Elder Scrolls, Dragon Ages and Dark Souls are front and centre at every expo and awards ceremony from E3 to Gamescom. We can chop zombies to bits in painstakingly textured, digitally hand-painted 3D these days, so what, if anything, do your top-down, text-rich RPGs have left to offer?

http://www.redbull.com/en/games/stories/1331658188490/pillars-of-eternity-interview

 

I had not read that before making the other post.

[talharbash]

 

Granted, I'm not telling you you should, specifically, gratuitously fund them. I'm just saying, whether you do or don't, or how much, should be based on much better factors.

Indeed. Personally, whether or not I back another Obsidian kickstarter for big dollars will depend solely on what PoE turns out to be like. If it's all that they said they would do, then they'll see (much) more of my money on another kickstarter. If not, they won't. Simple as that. I don't personally care when I get to see gameplay footage. I care about the end product.

 

 

I now only back (crowd funded games) by small indie teams that aren't going crazy with PR out of the gate. I honestly find it's better suited to the experience I expect from this sort of patronage.

 

Whenever there's a business there's PR and this sort of behind the door exclusivity leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's not a slap in the face or the end of the world or anything. It just shows where Obsidian's priorities are. Those priorities are probably good ones to have (if you're Obsidian).

[Bryy]

 I'm still very much looking forward to Pillars of Eternity but I probably won't back any future project of Obsidian on kickstarter with "big money" anymore.

That's.... fine?

 

You continue to act like you spending your own money is somehow Obsidian's fault. Also, I assume by putting quotes around big money, that's code for "I'm not going to buy the game on release! I'll wait for the sale! That will REALLY show EA!".

[Fatback]

I think bastion was described as an action rpg by the developers themselves not a platformer and braid looks nothing like bastion.

 

And onto the main topic I would be almost positive that everything having to do with e3 and pillars would have been paid for by paradox, and even if they didn't really want to would have to because paradox is there publisher (see marketing) and not even obsidians choice.

[bonarbill]

I just want to see gameplay.  It's just so weird to not show any when the game is supposed to be released in about 6 months.  I know I'm certainly more excited for both the Witcher 3 and Dragon than PoE because I actually got a chance to see both in action.

 

It seriously makes me wonder whether they are going to even hit the 2014 release date.

Edited June 16, 2014 by bonarbill