Ongoing discussion of Ukraine

[Rosbjerg]

Old thread here.

 

 

Guns and fighters seep through Ukraine's porous Russian border
Combatants engaged in last week's fighting say walked into the country 'to visit relatives' at poorly policed checkpoints
[..]
Russian fighter.. "I called up the military enlistment office and asked what I could do. They said people were gathering in Rostov and it may be possible to go to Ukraine. It's not official; they whispered it in my ear, so to speak."

The Russian fighters – including veterans of the military, intelligence services and riot police – formed the core of a new unit called the Vostok Battalion, which took a lead role in the bloody battle for the Donetsk airport last week, in which 33 Russian citizens were killed.
[..]

 

[Hassat Hunter]

 

 

It's not really ridiculous. It's a carefully orchestrated propaganda campaign by a man who is looking increasingly like your average banana-republic oil dictator.

Are you talking about EU-elections again?

 

Example of local here; Lots of people voted party called "D66" since they were students, stupid and apparently it's the 'student party'... They claimed this stupidity was instead proof the EU lives in people's lives.

And then ****ed over the people voting for them locally now that they no longer risk that negatively affecting them for the EU elections.

 

That's some A-Grade planning and bending stuff right there.

[Mor]

Separatists in eastern Ukraine, mounted an assault on a border post near the city of Luhansk. (link)

 

According to the report: the separatists ambushed a guard post near the city of Luhansk early Monday morning. About 100 gunmen took part in the original offensive, with some firing rocket-propelled grenades from the roof of a nearby residential building. The border guards returned fire. The battle raged for hours, with 400-500 rebels reinforcing the attack. - Although i'd take the numbers with grain of salt until it can be confirmed, though here is a video:

 

 

A video of the attack, posted to the Ukrainian border guards service YouTube channel.

 

 

According to Ukraine: "Russia is secretly sending armed men across the border, including volunteers from Chechnya. The Kremlin – which denies involvement and has called for peace talks – is using its intelligence agencies to coordinate the anti-Kiev insurgency"

The goal of the attack was to: "destabilize the capability of border guard servicemen to coordinate action along the Ukrainian-Russian border"

 

Meanwhile everything else is the same, Russia is still parking huge force on the Ukrainian border, playing at training exercise. While in Eastern-Ukraine the fighting goes one, and some more local editor/journalist have been "taken for questioning" by pro-russia forces.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Mor

[Zoraptor]

And the Ukrainian government has got caught telling porkies again. On the heels of people gassing themselves with chlorine and setting themselves on fire (reminder, this is the president elect's pet theory, not some random nutbar from right sector or Svoboda), shelling themselves etc all just to make Ukraine look bad the separatists have now blown themselves up with AA rockets and said it was  an air strike. Except not only do the independent journalists such as the Al Jazeera reporter actually on the ground say that it definitively was rocket fire from a Sukhoi, they say that it targeted a building that was not actually occupied by any fighters, as well as hitting various other nearby places. Still, got the story out first, and got it uncritically reported* too.

 

I look forward to the UNSC resolution, sponsored by the west, for a no fly zone over Ukraine to prevent further attacks on civilians. Perhaps even a NATO intervention to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe, as with Benghazi. I'm sure that they can count on there being no Russian or Chinese veto, as with the Libyan resolution, so there's nothing stopping them from putting their principles to work this time and help liberate another people from oppression. It might even turn out better than the clusterasterisk they left Libya in.

 

*Particularly amusing was the CNN reporter who had 'reviewed social media' and come to the conclusion that Kiev's propaganda was correct but had somehow managed to miss things like spontaneously exploding trees and tarmac plus multiple craters from the supposed single malfunctioning AA rocket in her 'review'. Sun, rocket, fire into; ignorance--.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Zoraptor

[obyknven]

Western "ignorance" just fabled.

http://vimeo.com/97268926

They awarded modern Al Capone. .

http://www.rferl.org/content/crimean-tatar-jemilev-shooting/24999479.html

 

It is noteworthy that after his return from prison in the early 90s, where Mustafa Dzhemilev had been serving time for anti-government agitation and propaganda, his political rivals (ethnic Tatars as well) started to die under mysterious circumstances. Roland Kadiev — a famous scientist who devoted himself to serving the Crimean Tatar national movement unexpectedly passed away; Yuri Osmanov – one of the leaders of the Crimean Tatars , was brutally murdered in 1993; Norick Shiri – the leader of the youth organization of the Crimean Tatars “Birlik -Unity” , founder and publisher of the newspaper “Voice of the Youth”, was also killed in 2006.

 

http://journal-neo.org/2014/05/19/rus-kry-mskie-tatary-v-antirossijskoj-politicheskoj-igre/

 

Though this is just typical Western behavior, their governments very tied with mafia around the world (Colombia, Mexico, Kosovo etc).

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/22202/50/

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/02/16/the-u-s-war-for-drugs-of-terror-in-colombia/

http://www.american-buddha.com/cia.death.htm

http://www.globalresearch.ca/narcotics-cia-pentagon-death-squads-and-mexico-s-war-on-drugs/31100

[obyknven]

Some similarities exist between current Ukrainian situation and guerrilla war in India. Same action of government ( using brutal force against of opposition instead of diplomatic solving, lobbying big corporation interests, hysteria in media about "terrorists" treat, transformation into police state etc  ) make situation even worse. 

Mr Chidambaram’s War
A math question: How many soldiers will it take to contain the mounting rage of hundreds of millions of people?

http://www.outlookindia.com/article/Mr-Chidambarams-War/262519
 
 

‘Terrorism Isn’t The Disease; Egregious Injustice Is’
On laws like AFSPA, Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act, sedition, democracy, terrorism and more

http://www.outlookindia.com/article/Terrorism-Isnt-The-Disease-Egregious-Injustice-Is/281389

[Mor]

Obama condemns Russian 'dark tactics' in Ukraine

US President Barack Obama has condemned Russian "aggression" in Ukraine.

 

Speaking in Warsaw to mark 25 years since the fall of communism in Poland, he hailed Polish democracy as a beacon for neighbouring Ukraine.

 

"How can we allow the dark tactics of the 20th Century to define the 21st?" he said.

Fitting symbolism, thank the gods they had the sense to postpone a meeting with Puting on D-day, that cynical propaganda troll would have used it to reinforce its bogus narrative of fighting against Nazim,Fascism and the bogymen as long a it get them another piece of real estate.

 

Also we had the first G7 (G8 minus Russia) financial group meeting, and Obama and Merkel warn of tougher sanctions against Russia over Ukraine.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Mor

[Gorgon]

I'm curious Oby, does it pay anything or is it like a labour of love kinda thing. 

 

 

 

 

 

(sorry for being off topic)

[Malcador]

Heh, that revelation is like hearing the NSA spies on foreign countries.

[Sarex]

Not to mention who Putin learned that particular kind of trolling from.

[Mor]

I'm curious Oby, does it pay anything or is it like a labour of love kinda thing. 

 

 

(sorry for being off topic)

5min55sec: "if it looks like Kremlin S***, smells like Kremlin S***, and taste like Kremlin S*** too - then it's Kremlin S***" - golden.

 

Also its not really off topic, Russian propaganda has played a substantial part in the evolution of this crisis. Some times in very scurrilous ways latest example is what Walsingham and Agiel noted there.

 

Also that st.petersburg organization, I am pretty sure that its the same one that was involved in similar payed posters scam couple of years ago in local politics, though atm I can't find an English article to confirm.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Mor

[Zoraptor]

Said it once, said it a million times, if oby does it for any other reason than the basic satisfaction of getting a reaction from compulsive buttock clenchers I'd be extremely surprised. 

 

Also we had the first G7 (G8 minus Russia) financial group meeting, and Obama and Merkel warn of tougher sanctions against Russia over Ukraine.

 

 

Nobody cares about the G7 except the members of the G7. It's the cool kids club shouting about how important they still are, most people grow out of that sort of thing by the time they're 12 or shrugged and went off to play with China and India. Sheesh, most of the G7 members are still meeting Putin anyway, it's a sign of exactly how impotent they really are that they're bigging up something so utterly trivial. 

 

Still, hilarious to see how much propaganda is being spun out of the G7 instead of events on the ground. Just watched the BBC news, five minutes of stuffed suit irrelevancies pontificating, and not a single mention of what was actually happening in Ukraine. It's embarrassing how much better Al Jazeera's coverage has been, not only do they actually have two people on the ground but they're actually covering events on the ground like the repeated and indiscriminate shelling of hospitals and other civilian buildings, instead of spewing PR like a emetic popping bulimic and calling that coverage. Can't have the brave Ukrainians attacking medics and civilians be mentioned on the beeb or cnn though, that would give completely the wrong impression.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Nobody cares about the G7 except the members of the G7. It's the cool kids club shouting about how important they still are,

 

That's true except for the fact that G8 produce 60% of the worlds GDP

 

So if you are  arguing that global economic strength is irrelevant and inconsequential then yes the G8/G7 is irrelevant

 

But considering the reality that the most important consideration for almost countries in the world is the state of there economies you will have to position a very compelling argument to convince me that the G7/G8 is irrelevant

 

And yes Russia being  suspended from the G8 is important. Its another step to isolate them and get them to behave in way that  is more acceptable to most of the international community

[obyknven]

 

 

 

Nobody cares about the G7 except the members of the G7. It's the cool kids club shouting about how important they still are,

 

That's true except for the fact that G8 produce 60% of the worlds GDP

 

Germany in 1938 is almost bankrupt.  Japan before WW is quite weak economically . Just remember how mighty ones fell upon them in war. Yes at last they fell too, but in difference with Russia they don't have such resources and nuclear weapon.

GDP also not reflect real economical might of countries. For example only 23% of US GDP belongs to real economics, while 77% is virtual services - they  IRL absolutely not important.

 

[obyknven]

I'm curious Oby, does it pay anything or is it like a labour of love kinda thing. 

 

 

 

 

 

(sorry for being off topic)

This video make me lol - this is so similar to Russian children's trolling. They usually give to media some nonsenses and giggling when these adult serious idiots repeat these cool stories at all major media channels. In other words Russian trolls troll Western media there.

 

IRL any website who have experience of constant Russian "invasions" can say this anti-Western rhetoric and aggressive alpha-male  behavior is  usual for Russians in Internets. For proofs just visit any gaming server with strong Russian presence - you find there cosmic butthurts caused by them. Also Russian invasions on western imageboards are fabled. It's just typical Russians.

 

[Zoraptor]

Your maths is terrible. You're giving the G7 nearly 50% more GDP share than they actually have.

 

The G7 is irrelevant because there is zero additional anything from being the 'G7' than there is in being 'USA, UK, France, Germany, Japan, Italy, Canada'. They aren't even the seven largest economies any more, and they aren't ever going to be the seven largest economies again.

[BruceVC]

Your maths is terrible. You're giving the G7 nearly 50% more GDP share than they actually have.

 

The G7 is irrelevant because there is zero additional anything from being the 'G7' than there is in being 'USA, UK, France, Germany, Japan, Italy, Canada'. They aren't even the seven largest economies any more, and they aren't ever going to be the seven largest economies again.

 

I don't agree with your assessment of the contribution of the G7 towards the global GDP

 

And this is a discussion that we can have around the facts, not personal views. I'll respond to this later

[Mor]

The G7 is made of seven major economies, effecting international trade/monetary policy etc, I think its foolish to assume that cooperation among them on finance policies and issues won't have weight down the road. Although this is not about their power, it is yet another threat at sanctions aimed at Russia, over its continued destabilizing actions in Ukraine. Its part of the usual verbal clash, although IMO it should be noted that it backed by Germany who is usually consider to have reservations due to its energy dependency, and in my observation so far has been playing the mediators as much as possible, while the UK\US has been more on the "tough" rhetoric end.

[Hassat Hunter]

You know what's funny...

 

The US supports the Kiev army oppressing it, even offered kevlar and communicative gear... so they aren't even hiding how they're supporting it's mass-murdering policies.

In the meanwhile, I am *still* waiting on some definitive proof that Russia is behind East-Ukrain's uprising... it's been how long now? Are American intelligence that incompetant? Or can they simply not find anything so have to resort to vague accusations, to support why they're supplying Kiev with the tool to keep their occupation going despite their amy being on the brink of collapse from financial and structural degredation over the years. May I remind that the US is basically all what keeps Kiev's infra-structure together at this point.

 

Yet no one complains about that... just the "terrrorists" in the East. Not the civilian murdering bandits from Kiev... :/

[BruceVC]

Your maths is terrible. You're giving the G7 nearly 50% more GDP share than they actually have.

 

The G7 is irrelevant because there is zero additional anything from being the 'G7' than there is in being 'USA, UK, France, Germany, Japan, Italy, Canada'. They aren't even the seven largest economies any more, and they aren't ever going to be the seven largest economies again.

 

Without nitpicking based on your link I did a quick calculation on the 2013 global GDP numbers from the IMF ( the second column ) and basically subtracted from the total of $73,982,183 million the combined contribution of G7 GDP based on that column

 

The G7 make up $32,654,000 (rounded some numbers up or down marginally) of the total. This is 44 % of the total worlds total GDP. This is not an insignificant number and it is relevant to the discussion because you are basically dismissing the G7 economic might

 

I

[obyknven]

Ukrainian Nazi-deputy attack Russian journalist in Ukrainian Rada, steal his documents (passport and accreditation) and kick journalist arse from the building. Just yet another day in democratic Ukraine.

http://youtu.be/8m6xXaifqqs

[Gorgon]

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27541005

[Sarex]

Obi it looks like you have some competition! I hope he won't abuse his mod privileges to win the race.

[Gorgon]

[HoonDing]

Likewise with the Syrian civil war, this isn't reported on anymore. If not for oby's relentless bumping I would already have forgotten about it entirely.