The morality of Animancy

[Nonek]

A rather appropriate video I think:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyZSAHPBLY

 

Edit: Personally I say damn the consequences and take the risk, but with an eye for more research and more study before experimentation. If my character is in a position to fund the work of a blossoming Herbert West, then I shall do so, lest he undertake his own research under less than ideal circumstances.

 

I pity the prisoners in my cells however.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Nonek

[Mor]

On practical side of Animancy, I believe that the field of magical items and various enhancements would be largely attributed to Animancer research and mechanical tinkering. Which might include anything from items that grant passive\active abilities, soul powered mechanisms like traps or even healing ( refreshing, if they only can do the stamina part).

 

If not yet, this would eventually become a very lucrative business (and much less dangerous to their person than necromancy) Animancers would be thought out and showered with money by nobles who would want to gain the advantage. Also Animancers are one of the few groups we know of with scholarly pursuits in a world with limited knowledge exchange, and their research already spread far and wide.

[Gromnir]

On practical side of Animancy, I believe that the field of magical items and various enhancements would be largely attributed to Animancer research and mechanical tinkering. Which might include anything from items that grant passive\active abilities, soul powered mechanisms like traps or even healing ( refreshing, if they only can do the stamina part).

 

If not yet, this would eventually become a very lucrative business (and much less dangerous to their person than necromancy) Animancers would be thought out and showered with money by nobles who would want to gain the advantage. Also Animancers are one of the few groups we know of with scholarly pursuits in a world with limited knowledge exchange, and their research already spread far and wide.

as you is largely parroting what Gromnir (and others) said earlier in this thread, who are we to argue? however, we once again note that souls makes different. we is discussing morality, no? 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[curryinahurry]

Update 65, regarding Ciphers, started with a captioned image of an Orlan Cipher trying to communicate with a "housed soul".  If we take the existence of souls for granted (that there has been some objective recognition/ observation that souls do indeed exist), then the PoE setting can be assumed to be Animist (everything has a soul).  It can also be thought of as hierarchical based on the "quality" of the soul ('awakened' vs. 'storng' vs 'fractured', etc.).  What we don't know is whether souls are generic or of a type(is a human soul always a human soul? Can a human soul be polluted by other types of souls?).  

 

If souls are topological in nature (maybe even if they're not, then a fairly clear hierarchy of souls.  While this may be influenced by the god one worships (a  worshiper of a nature god might find certain activities that cause housed souls in plants 'pain' abhorrent), there would likely develop a view of tampering with souls as increasingly permissive as it traveled away from the 'preferred' souls towards those most easily considered 'the other.'  

 

This may even lead to a type of eugenics, were experimenting on those souls not deemed of quality might be considered to certain groups fine as the goal is to create a more pure result.  Pretty nasty stuff potentially.

 

One thing we don't know is if souls can be manipulated  against the will of the thing that houses it.  Or if the condition of the souls effects such manipulation.

Edited June 3, 2014 by curryinahurry

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I think a trial of an animancer of group of animancers would make for an interesting quest. Suppose that arguing for or against it would largely depend on one's subjective view on morality and the cost:benefit ratio of research into animancy.

[Gromnir]

I think a trial of an animancer of group of animancers would make for an interesting quest. Suppose that arguing for or against it would largely depend on one's subjective view on morality and the cost:benefit ratio of research into animancy.

 

real trials is horrible venues for delving into morality, but in a game it could work.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Mor]

@KaineParker, Morality or view on tradition vs progress. Right now everything seem to to suggest that in couple of hundred years or so, the technological advancements would turn it into a "steam punk" sort of setting and with every rapid technological advancements, rapid cultural change follows. It would be interesting to see how those view would be represented withing the setting.

 

Also IMHO if such trial take place it would be in a court of public opinion and limited to a specific faction think Wizards vs "Red Wizards of Thay".

 

 

@curryinahurry, We don't know if everything has a soul, on the other hand we do know that some humans can be born without souls, that certain materials can be used to bind\house souls, and that some old trees in Eir Glanfath has souls (possibly related to the former, although it would be arrogant to assume that only what we perceive as alive can have souls\intelligence)

 

We also know that souls exist in endless cycle and sometime seem to maintain their old memories, while the human body seem like a shell/Vessel, I suspect that its symbiotic process that we gain consciousness while what they gain related to power of gods i.e. "Rather than illuminate the presumed higher purpose of this cycle, the gods have obfuscated the truth, at times spreading cosmological lies, pitting believers and empowered chosen agents against each other, and tacitly approving the prejudices of their followers to maintain power."

 

I also mentioned eugenics as a probable consequence of souls having specific characteristics/strength and "pure" lineages, various breeding are very likely among power groups, although this is not related to Animancers (who are researchers who don't necessarily have powers) but more like wizards/priest/etc..

 

Also it would be interesting to learn who is the watchers(same update), according to legends they was able to see lost souls and perceive an individual's ancestral lives. If so they would be a great asset.

 

 

@Gromnir, get a life, don't let your ego or internet person to hold you back.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Mor

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

^I was referring to exploiting the morality of judges or jurors to side with your preferred side in a trial, not using a trial to decide upon the morality of animancy.

[Mor]

You mean something like the trial in NWN2 OC?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

You mean something like the trial in NWN2 OC?

Yes, but with factional influence taken into account, not being forced into it, the dependent not being the PC, and without a trial by combat against McBadass being forced at the conclusion.

[Gromnir]

@Gromnir, get a life, don't let your ego or internet person to hold you back.

that is just the kinda nonsense that gets threads pruned. is nothing wrong with you being hurt or sensitive or whatever, but be careful o' doing this kinda silliness where it is gonna get threads closed. 

 

"I was referring to exploiting the morality of judges or jurors to side with your preferred side in a trial, not using a trial to decide upon the morality of animancy. "

 

yeah, as we said, real trials is bad for that kinda thing, particularly criminal trials. but, as is a game, no doubt you could do all kinda stuff that need not be least realistic. depending on what you mean by "exploiting" in reference to judges and jurors, we can see wonderfully moral ambiguous actions used to influence trial outcomes that might seem like hypocrisy in light o' your ultimate goal. am just not a fan o' trials though as we has too much experience with such.

 

in any event, moral charged scenarios should present themselves. we would be disappointed if obsidian didn't use such. the cooperation and/or freedom o' the evil or complete amoral animancer is your only hope of ending the threat of the, "Undead (that) abound in Heritage Hill"?  sounds doable. perhaps long term results o' helping animancer pose greater threat than the undead rampaging in one locale? or... whatever. for obsidian to include such obviously fertile soil for moral conundrum and then not til that field would be almost criminal.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited June 3, 2014 by Gromnir

[Nonek]

The potential is almost boundless I agree, and a trial setting precedents and codes of conduct might be a perfect method of exploring the matter. The collecting of evidence, witnesses, clues and opinions from the great and good as well as (of course) the corrupting elements that seek to help and hinder for their own reasons. It might be nice to be supported by the bad man for the wrong reasons, and yet ironically reach the right conclusion, like the original Junktown Gizmo ending.

[curryinahurry]

...

@curryinahurry, We don't know if everything has a soul, on the other hand we do know that some humans can be born without souls, that certain materials can be used to bind\house souls, and that some old trees in Eir Glanfath has souls (possibly related to the former, although it would be arrogant to assume that only what we perceive as alive can have souls\intelligence)

 

...

 

I also mentioned eugenics as a probable consequence of souls having specific characteristics/strength and "pure" lineages, various breeding are very likely among power groups, although this is not related to Animancers (who are researchers who don't necessarily have powers) but more like wizards/priest/etc..

 

 

 

With regards to everything having a soul; of course you are correct, but  think my point about Animism is that non-human entities in Eora have the potential for souls (it might be possible that only higher life forms have any sort of soul-dislocation problems...who knows).  This provides a vast resource for Animancers without ever getting human souls into the mix, and thus avoiding potential moral quagmires (unless such an animacer runs into a druid or early eco-terrorist).

 

Also, when I referred to eugenics (which I may have used incorrectly upon reflection), I was thinking more about direct manipulation of the souls as opposed to the breeding aspects.  Attempts to directly strengthen or fix souls, but also the belief that by taking weaker souls out of the Lottery of Souls by using them in other ways could help alleviate degenerative conditions ascribed to souls that are somehow flawed or 'weak'.

 

It will be interesting to see how Obsidian deals with the issue of observing souls; if it's a real thing in the game or just alluded to, in order to encourage player skepticism.

Edited June 4, 2014 by curryinahurry

[Mor]

 

You mean something like the trial in NWN2 OC?

Yes, but with factional influence taken into account, not being forced into it, the dependent not being the PC, and without a trial by combat against McBadass being forced at the conclusion.

 

It would be interesting if they can arrange something like that, but it was a rather elaborate trial, so I doubt we will be seeing something like that unless its an integral part of the plot. Still its obsidian ,and souls/morality appears to be important themes, so i'd buy and eat my hat if we aren't going to encounter some factions/cults who make use of such knowledge, where you would be able to weigh in on he subject, playing the judge the jury and if necessary imprint the heels of justice at their evil backsides.

 

In fact, one of the very first areas we saw seem to be exactly such a place:

 

 

 

 

 

This provides a vast resource for Animancers without ever getting human souls into the mix, and thus avoiding potential moral quagmires (unless such an animacer runs into a druid or early eco-terrorist).

That an interesting point, fueled on non-human green souls It also brings us back to the question of what is moral in the world PoE i.e. your principles of right and wrong may not be the same in the world of active deities, with similar beliefs about faithless to our ones. In medieval times, people burned witches, thinking they are doing gods work, it took a long time to root out those ideas as bollocks, and in PoE we have divine direction and the science support it..

[curryinahurry]

 

That an interesting point, fueled on non-human green souls It also brings us back to the question of what is moral in the world PoE i.e. your principles of right and wrong may not be the same in the world of active deities, with similar beliefs about faithless to our ones. In medieval times, people burned witches, thinking they are doing gods work, it took a long time to root out those ideas as bollocks, and in PoE we have divine direction and the science support it..

 

 

I think that by a fair margin, in terms of storytelling possibilities, the most interesting thing the Obsidian folks are doing is the faction and local reputation system.  I think that the moral relativism that can be created in this system can lead to a lot of grey areas worth exploring. Also, I think that this allows people to role play their own moral positions if Obsidian can represent enough latitude in solutions.  

 

I'm not convinced that the Obsidian folks completely understand all of the ramifications of what they're taking on with Animancy.  But I think it's an interesting problem they've set up, and I think they've bought themselves a bit of leeway in how they might handle it.

[Nonek]

I'm wondering about possession, and whether it is feasible for an Animancer to swap bodies or Souls? The Fistandantilus situation from the Twins trilogy springs to mind, an ancient Wizard swapping his failing body for that of his apprentices. Investigating or stumbling across this kind of situation has so much potential, one can almost see the scenes making themselves, and ancient eyes watching the characters from a form of young, innocent flesh.

[Thuringwethil]

 

You mean something like the trial in NWN2 OC?

Yes, but with factional influence taken into account, not being forced into it, the dependent not being the PC, and without a trial by combat against McBadass being forced at the conclusion.

 

McBadass was a lot less so given a) missile weapons and spells were legal in that duel, b) that guy, fierce as he was in melee, had no ranged combat capability, so c) most people I know who played through ended up leading him on a merry chase around and around the arena until his Frenzy wore off and anyone could finish him off in all manner of embarrassing for the Luskans) ways.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

That doesn't change the fact that he was a stock villain, the badass evil warrior. Suppose that factors into encounter design, but is pretty off-topic for a thread about animancy.

[Nonek]

Reading the recent PCGamer interview with Mr Sawyer and i'm left wondering if the zeitgeist of the current age in the Dyrwood is focused on challenging both authority and the supposed wisdom of the past, certainly the initial Kickstarter comments seem to hint at this, and the fact that the residents of the Dyrwood are complicit in Deicide from the saint Waidwen incident.

 

Could this be another factor in their acceptance of Animancy? In that they are no longer comfortable accepting the old tales of the past, and are eager to forge their own destiny and stamp their own identity on the world around them. If gods can be slain, immortal being who are supposedly the masters of souls and our destiny, what else that we have been told is a lie and what else can we accomplish? Could there be a rising tide of radicals whom are challenging everything that has been accepted, their daring inspired by what they have allready done?

 

If so how far will this spread? Perhaps after rising amongst the aristocracy and the landed gentry even the most rustic peasants will feel that a new age is overtaking them, and feel more open to the thrill of experimentation? What of the priesthood, a prime component of faith is overcoming ones doubt, is it possible that such a huge blow as has been struck against Eothas will resonate amongst the clergy of many deities? Could heresies arise or perhaps Priests whom are dedicated to finding the truth that the gods seem to be hiding? And of course the backlash to this in the form of a harsher doctrine and a more zealous faithful.

 

Something of a brave new world being born:

What God is he, writes laws of peace, & clothes him in a tempest
What pitying Angel lusts for tears, and fans himself with sighs
What crawling villain preaches abstinence & wraps himself
In fat of lambs? no more I follow, no more obedience pay,

 

W. Blake. America: A Prophecy.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Nonek

[Aethryl]

Just a short hop back towards the OP: I've always found applying moral systems to the types of magic in games to be one of the most interesting aspects of roleplaying. I sometimes like to consider each branch of magic from my character's moral perspective, which can lead me to playing a bard who refuses to use any mind-influencing magic. (unless they are beneficial AND I have permission)

[Nonek]

It's possible that this is one of (if not the main) themes of the game.

 

Looks like you were spot on Sir.

 

Just a short hop back towards the OP: I've always found applying moral systems to the types of magic in games to be one of the most interesting aspects of roleplaying. I sometimes like to consider each branch of magic from my character's moral perspective, which can lead me to playing a bard who refuses to use any mind-influencing magic. (unless they are beneficial AND I have permission)

 

Yes it is interesting, however with a new science there is another thing to consider, ones ignorance of the subject matter tainting any moral behaviour. I think it might well be quite effective to have a budding Animancer try to aid others, and through no fault of his own commit irreperable harm. And what price he chooses or is forced to choose to make reparations.

[PrimeJunta]

As a tangent, I freakin' love the St. Waidwen incident. Fantasy religions fighting each other because reasons is such a cliché. Giving an actual, tangible and understandable reason for the animosity is a brilliant twist. Blowing up your god will do that.

[Panteleimon]

I feel somewhat out of place coming into this debate as a Catholic(Byzantine Rite, specifically) , not to mention many other things that I suppose might place me in the minority here.

We believe that the soul is an immortal, sacred, inviolable thing that must be treated with the greatest respect both by others and yourself at all times, lest you lose hold of it and be in the kind of trouble that can last for literally an eternity.  It is no accident that the only source of the ability to manipulate(corrupt) souls is held to be, que surprise, ~the devil~.  I can't imagine how a "science" devoted to the manipulation, trapping, mutilation and/or control of souls could be viewed with anything other than absolute horror by most people, regardless of whatever benefits it's practicioners may advertise.  So they can cure alzheimers, for example, but every few times they get together they build an awful soul siphon like we see at the end of the gameplay demos Mr. Sawyer has run.  You'd have to be pretty amoral by definition to think that having soul-powered automobiles or flying machines( even if lower creatures like squirrels have souls you can steal as well as humans) is somehow progress because hey, it's modern!  I do understand they're writing a world set in a renaissance period, and I'm sure they'll manage to cast the struggle in a light that makes either side appeal to a healthy portion of the people playing the game.

I don't see an issue with undertaking academic research into the NATURE of souls and existentialism, as we see in the cosmology of antiquity and the extensive theological study, debate and contemplation of Christianity(or any other religion you want to throw out there) for the last 2000+ years.  I do however fail to see why any dillema need be written in such a cynical way as to force a choice between being the amoral pragmatist who puts future prosperity over ethical standards and being the religous 'fradie cat who's just standing in the way of "progress".  It's a trope that's as in style now in ANY media as creating a totally utopian, egalitarian society was in '90's fantasy and Sci Fi(Star Trek TNG, for example) .  But it's bad, lazy writing.

Like I said, I know I'm coming at this from a very, very different angle than most people here(big stuffy conservative coming through!) , but it's not one that I've really seen shared as I read through the thread, so I thought I'd put it out there.  I hope it's a perspective that the developers feel is worth writing into the story with a straight face, rather than forcing me to cast myself as a silly dinosaur who's just getting in the way.  But I have a high degree of confidence in them, and I can't imagine they'd have fun writing that.

 

[Gromnir]

 I can't imagine how a "science" devoted to the manipulation, trapping, mutilation and/or control of souls could be viewed with anything other than absolute horror by most people, regardless of whatever benefits it's practicioners may advertise.  So they can cure alzheimers, for example, but every few times they get together they build an awful soul siphon like we see at the end of the gameplay demos Mr. Sawyer has run.  You'd have to be pretty amoral by definition to think that having soul-powered automobiles or flying machines( even if lower creatures like squirrels have souls you can steal as well as humans) is somehow progress because hey, it's modern! 

...

Like I said, I know I'm coming at this from a very, very different angle than most people here(big stuffy conservative coming through!) , but it's not one that I've really seen shared as I read through the thread, so I thought I'd put it out there. 

 

 

dunno, but Gromnir  were saying much the same stuff ad nauseum in this thread and elsewhere and were coming up a brick wall.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66430-i-feel-like-im-missing-something-here-related-to-souls-and-the-game-mechanics-in-this-game/

 

also, your faith, while not necessarily shared by the average poster in this thread, should be more in line with the norm o' the people in the PoE world. you have faith; you believe. the folks in PoE believe too 'cause they don't need faith. souls is not abstract in PoE.

 

your pov ain't  near as different as you believe... on multiple levels.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 4, 2014 by Gromnir

[Nonek]

In some aspects I agree Mr Panteleimon (and it is very nice to see a representative of one of the old faiths in the discussion,) however we are not used to manipulating our Souls as a common daily occurence as the inhabitants of Eora seem to do, thus we cannot reasonably compare ourselves with them too much. Obviously some examples seem pertinent, but they were probably what Mr Sawyer and the writers were basing Animancy and its practicioners upon. In general however the great mass of people in the Dyrwood seem to hold Animancy in much the same regard as yourself, and may be wise in that any knowldege is by nature a two edged sword, and mostly comes down to its application and weilder.

 

It seems perfectly reasonable to me that the potentates of the Dyrwood may be allowing (if not even pursuing) or funding what they believe to be benign research in Animancy, especially considering the local history of the Engwithans under their feet, how far they have gone in other areas of scientific exploration (blowing up a gods avatar,) and perhaps even the current zeitgeist that has arisen from a new nation finding its feet and rejecting the recieved wisdom of the old. And the rewards that are hinted at are almost beyond imagining and should be thought of as another factor in its supposed favour, immortality, a peak behind the curtains of reality to see what mechanisms whirl in the background, and perhaps even a hand in tweaking those mechanisms which may be considered godhood to an Eoran.

 

Obviously there are the horror stories to rightfully point out, but one assumes that Animancer's whom pursue such disreputable acts are criminals to be hunted down and exterminated by the authorities. Probably by the Dunryd Row. But at the end of the day the ruler (Duc?) of the Dyrwood probably does not care what his subjects think overmuch, so long as they pay their taxes and send their sons to man his militia. His interest is probably focused on his peers and court, as well as the natives of Eir Glanfath.

 

Edit: It does raise interesting questions as to how the traditional nations of Eora are starting to view the Dyrwood, with the slaying of a god and the practise of a reviled craft, a benighted den of sin and villainy?

Edited August 4, 2014 by Nonek