Some questions about undeath in PoE

[Infiltrator_SF]

I read the PoE undeath dev log from a few months back, and I can't figure why would "wealthy nobles" pay someone to cheat death if all it lead them to was them having an extended lifetime for the price of eating people and losing their sanity and personality in the process? I mean, surely, if you wanted to cheat death, you'd at least want to keep your mental state intact if you had to look like a ghoul, and have a way to preserve that state eternally until a violent 2nd death, right?

[Sensuki]

Because they don't know the consequences. We as a player know that because we have been told the lore, but in this setting, people in the setting don't understand a lot of things - such as the nature of souls, reincarnation/death and the nature of the gods.

[Infiltrator_SF]

Because they don't know the consequences. We as a player know that because we have been told the lore, but in this setting, people in the setting don't understand a lot of things - such as the nature of souls, reincarnation/death and the nature of the gods.

 

That crossed my mind, but, the world they live in isn't new, and surely, nobles keep company with other nobles, and discussions like "did you hear what happened to Reginald after he was supposed to live forever?" are sure to be expected among them, right?

[Silent Winter]

 

Because they don't know the consequences. We as a player know that because we have been told the lore, but in this setting, people in the setting don't understand a lot of things - such as the nature of souls, reincarnation/death and the nature of the gods.

 

That crossed my mind, but, the world they live in isn't new, and surely, nobles keep company with other nobles, and discussions like "did you hear what happened to Reginald after he was supposed to live forever?" are sure to be expected among them, right?

 

unless taking the 'live forever' treatment is taboo - they don't know that Reginald had it done - just that he got a bit strange and then reclusive, then disappeared.

Besides, I think the degredation of the body happens slowly so they might not know about Reginald's condition until after they themselves die. ... er, I mean, they won't find out before they die.  Other, older nobles might withdraw from society before it gets to the 'noticeable' stage.

[Dornedas]

What do you mean? They are wealthy nobles. Eating people, being insane that's what the bourgeoisie does even before becoming undead.

 

In all seriousness. I'm pretty sure they hide the eating people fact from their customers. 

I know i would since you know ... I'm pretty sure ghouls can't sue you.

[Sabotin]

I would assume it would be relatively easy for someone in power and with lots of money to satisfy his vices. I mean it's not like they go around biting people like zombies, it's just that the steak they have at dinner is a different meat. And I'm sure the necromancers would be willing to provide everything necessary for a comfortable undeath for a small fee.

[Zwiebelchen]

I would assume it would be relatively easy for someone in power and with lots of money to satisfy his vices. I mean it's not like they go around biting people like zombies, it's just that the steak they have at dinner is a different meat. And I'm sure the necromancers would be willing to provide everything necessary for a comfortable undeath for a small fee.

 

... Kinda reminds of that scene in Telltale's The Walking Dead Season 1.

[Mor]

 

Because they don't know the consequences. We as a player know that because we have been told the lore, but in this setting, people in the setting don't understand a lot of things - such as the nature of souls, reincarnation/death and the nature of the gods.

 

That crossed my mind, but, the world they live in isn't new, and surely, nobles keep company with other nobles, and discussions like "did you hear what happened to Reginald after he was supposed to live forever?" are sure to be expected among them, right?

 

Animancy is still in its infancy, its understandable how some Animancers might want to push the boundaries without though or regard of the consequences. Keep in mind that the concept of undead isn't new, there were lost souls long before the current breakthroughs in Animancy, and Egwithian 2000 years ago manged to build constructs that contains souls with some memories.

 

Its very likely that details about the process aren't well known, issues dismissed as technical mishaps that can fixed, or through direct misinformation by interested parties for example Necromancers, nobles would want to keep it in house and or Animancers wouldn't want to draw attention of religious factions..

[Amentep]

"Yes, Sir Reginald did become a flesh eating mindless fiend...but as I warned him, those with weak souls just aren't suited to the process. Mind you I had...heard of unsavory rumors after I'd treated him but he insisted his spirit wasn't weak or degenerate.

 

Surely, though, a fine noblewoman like yourself has a strong soul capable of handling the energies that shall provide lasting life..."

 

To be honest, quackery through the generations tells us that people in general will grasp at even the most unlikely of health solutions - including those that damage their health (see Radithor and Eben Byers, for example). I suspect the sufficiently able salesman/conman would convince those of the right mindset to try out the new discoveries of animancy.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Wealthy people in this world will try all sorts of things to extend their own lives or try to place their soul in someone else's body.  Because animancy is highly experimental, many animancers believe the next revolution in animancy is just around the corner.  All they need are wealthy patrons to fund their research.  And all the wealthy patrons want to hear is how perfectly everything is going to work out for them.

 

Many Dyrwoodans wish the state would regulate (or ban) animancy as most other nations do, but there is enough pressure from powerful/moneyed people that even wild research continues with little oversight.

[Nonek]

The radium mouthwash seemed to be working splendidly, until the gentlemans jaw fell off.

 

I imagine one would simply not connect the flesh eating ghoul that has been dragging the homeless into its abandoned mansion lair with dapper old Baron Behrtric, even if it was dressed in rags of his clothing, and certainly the family would strive at all costs to keep this a secret.

 

The setting is ripe for a Doctor Frankenstein however, obsessed with unlocking the very secrets of the soul, while his victims and their families pay the price. In essence I suppose it's somewhat similar to modern day spiritualists, ghoulishly enriching themselves on the grief, hope and fear of the bereaved.

[Gromnir]

"Yes, Sir Reginald did become a flesh eating mindless fiend...but as I warned him, those with weak souls just aren't suited to the process. Mind you I had...heard of unsavory rumors after I'd treated him but he insisted his spirit wasn't weak or degenerate.

 

Surely, though, a fine noblewoman like yourself has a strong soul capable of handling the energies that shall provide lasting life..."

 

To be honest, quackery through the generations tells us that people in general will grasp at even the most unlikely of health solutions - including those that damage their health (see Radithor and Eben Byers, for example). I suspect the sufficiently able salesman/conman would convince those of the right mindset to try out the new discoveries of animancy.

am thinking we is stretching things a bit to fit poe rather than being rational. desperate people will try just about anything, but am thinking that we need context to makes ghoulish undead work as resulting from quackery. exploiting the poor is dangerous enough for the traveling snake-oil salesman, but you turn Count Bob into a flesh-eating ghoul and we suspect the Count's family, or other nobles, is gonna wanna have a word with you. that "word" would be "pain." quackery is a sketchy enough business when it does nothing... count on placebo effect, actors, and the measurable and undeniable possibility that people will recover from cancers and diseases w/o the benefit o' any doctoring.  

 

now, assume a plague is ravaging some town and our quack is selling a cure that turns folks into ghouls three weeks after taking the cure. am suspecting you could create a rather significant number o' ghouls that way, but would be a (pardon the pun) short-lived  scam. nevertheless, if such a scam happened in various places at approximate same similar time, and assuming limited long-distance communication, we bet you could introduce a rather large pool o' undead into your world via quackery. 

 

yeah, we can see that some research would continue regardless o' the danger. rather than testing on nobles we could foresee unscrupulous nobles providing human test subjects to a poe version o' dr. mengele, but the research would be necessarily kept quiet and hidden... the stuff of rumors.  most failed test subjects would be destroyed, but no doubt some few would escape to spread terror, panic, and rumor.

 

*shrug*

 

need more info, but the current scenario strikes us as straining credulity unnecessarily.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Amentep]

Part of the reason I mentioned Radithor was that Eben Byers was a rich industrialist who did indeed feel better drinking radium dissolved in water. When he did pass away, his doctor insisted it wasn't due to the radiation, but the gout, because none of his other patients had passed away from radiation. And if I remember my reading, he was quite piqued that the company stopped producing the stuff.

 

But the rich "recruiting volunteers" is pretty likely scenario.

[Gromnir]

Part of the reason I mentioned Radithor was that Eben Byers was a rich industrialist who did indeed feel better drinking radium dissolved in water. When he did pass away, his doctor insisted it wasn't due to the radiation, but the gout, because none of his other patients had passed away from radiation. And if I remember my reading, he was quite piqued that the company stopped producing the stuff.

 

But the rich "recruiting volunteers" is pretty likely scenario.

yeah, quackery kinda depends on the willing naivety o' the desperate.  heck, there is those old ronald reagan commercials floating around the internet proclaiming the health Benefits o' cigarette smoking. tobacco companies avoided any kinda liability for decades 'cause is near impossible to prove what causes cancers. the thing is, such claims would be impossible if the cigarettes were observed to turn people into flesh-eating undead. naivety and gullibility can only take us so far. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Fatback]

Does someone smell a quest chain.

[Gromnir]

Does someone smell a quest chain.

possibly, but am hopeful that if undead is wide-spread and appear in any kinda numbers in poe, we gets a better explanation than desperate nobles. doesn't seem particular well conceived, but we admitted don't have details.

 

as an aside, it is scary how many folks is killed by their doctors each year. wrong meds. wrong diagnosis. is something close to 1% of all patients admitted to a hospital end up having a pulmonary embolism. staph infections from hospital stays kill a ridiculous number o' people. etc. the thing is, the people going to the hospital is already sick or injured and so we is less surprised when folks die in hospitals. sick people tend to die. however, a rich noble who dies from a s'posed cure is a bit different than one who is transformed into an undead creature. sick people tend to die... they don't turn into flesh eating ghouls. can't use real-world situations as analogues. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Lephys]

It's not as if they go to sleep a rich noble, and awaken a ghoulish creature. They slowly start to need flesh, while knowing it (at which point, are you going to just go around telling people "Hey, I need to eat flesh, and it's all that doctor's fault!"? And, if someone discovers you're eating people, what incentive do you have to NOT murder that person on-the-spot? You know you need to eat people, and you're probably ashamed of it, or what-have-you. You're probably not going to go to some important diplomatic summit if you suspect your cravings'll "go rogue" on you, and you'll just start attacking people in public. And, by the time you start losing your mind, you're just a crazyman, and are either SUPER secluded in your keep somewhere (in which case no one really knows what's going on with you), or you no longer are capable of retaining your social/political status as a noble in your manor and flee to the woods, and/or attack someone, get publicly discovered and are killed, etc.

 

In any event, it's not very hard to believe that it wouldn't be blatantly obvious, to anyone, really, that you took some super-experimental "elixir," and all this was the result of that. There are probably 7,000 other things in the world they could blame it on. In any event, who's going to know? So long as you don't just tell all your friends "Yeah, man! I'm totally going to live forever now! Just tried a bold new treatment that's totally frowned upon by half the world! 8D!", no one's going to see what's happening to you and immediately think "Man, must've been that super top-secret treatment he had. Better post on Facebook about it, so no one else ever tries that same treatment!"

 

That said, yeah, the majority of "recruitment" on the part of animancers is probably going to be people who don't even know what it is they're getting, rather than just a bunch of nobles who all arbitrarily decide one day to roll the dice to see if they can live longer because they're bored and it sounds pleasant.

 

"So I'm good to go, then?"

 

"Why yes, Baron Shnessenhauf, you'll have the whitest smile in the court, now! 8D"

 

"Sweeeeet! ^_^"

 

*Animancer maniacally laughs*

[Nonek]

Does someone smell a quest chain.

 

Oh yes indeed, a vengeful noble hiring the adventurers to avenge his Undead sibling or such, it's nicely ambiguous. The Animancer did as he was instructed in the eyes of the law in the Dyrwood, and killing him could be construed as a murderous act, and the perpetrators assassins. Then the Animancer can raise the issue of his employers misdeeds, and how many fell by that gentleman or ladies hand as compared to the scholar, who was trying to (unsuccessfully) save and not kill. He can plead for more time, arguing that he stands at the very threshold of immortality, and that killing him is a crime against knowledge and generations of learning to come.

 

It would be a very nice test of the protagonists beliefs I think.

 

Of course if one is encountering the masses of the Undead that we usually have to grind through, then other options are needed, perhaps not even related to an Animancer: A malfunctioning Engwithan artifact, a creature feeding on and raising the homeless of the city as its thralls, an orphanage for the destitute that has fallen to a curse etcetera, but the developers i'm sure have a hundred ideas for such scenarios, that are far more consistent with their setting.

[illathid]

 

if undead is wide-spread and appear in any kinda numbers...

 

Given the current description, I'm guessing that this will not be the case for your standard corporeal undead (Vampires, ghouls, zombies, & skeletons). However, that still leaves the possibility for lots of different incorporeal undead to exist. this seems appropriate considering the settings focus on souls.

[Osvir]

Wealthy people in this world will try all sorts of things to extend their own lives or try to place their soul in someone else's body.  Because animancy is highly experimental, many animancers believe the next revolution in animancy is just around the corner.  All they need are wealthy patrons to fund their research.  And all the wealthy patrons want to hear is how perfectly everything is going to work out for them.

 

Many Dyrwoodans wish the state would regulate (or ban) animancy as most other nations do, but there is enough pressure from powerful/moneyed people that even wild research continues with little oversight.

 

Sounds like extended lifetime would be something an animancer would try on him- or herself just to get those extra years of research eh? "I'll get it right this time... for sure" *nom nom nom+1 week lifetime* "This time... this time for sure!!" *nom nom nom+1 week lifetime* "So close! So close!" *nom nom nom+1 week lifetime* what if there's an animancer who is a fampyr with the knowledge to make other fampyrs, but is purely doing it for research and in an obsession of finding that revolution and develops a sort of "Dracula-complex". "The oldest one". "The King and God of the Fampyrs".

 

I eyed the Update (#73) on the subject, but couldn't find any specific "time" of how long a fampyr is a fampyr. How long is the process of being fampyr? Does the person last for 100, 500, 1000 years as long as there is human flesh to fester on? How often does the cannibalism have to take place? Is a fampyr immortal as long as he/she can eat fresh flesh? Or will they eventually turn into darguls regardless of how many bodies they eat? Does the process speed up, say, a fampyr eats a human once a week, then once a day, then once an hour etc. etc. and the transformation into a dargul is a "natural transition" in the process? It says in the update "Allow yourself to decompose for a while..." which would mean that if you don't allow it you're going to live forever?

 

I can see how a wealthy noble can keep this up for a while before being suspected and eventually hunted down. Heck, I can even see wealthy organizations flock to this idea... and even create a very much alike "Noble Vampire Faction" trope (which the "Fampyr" is obviously taking inspiration from).

 

I can even see how wealthy human nobles could be lured into a wealthy fampyr noble faction, just for the fampyrs to get more funding+bodies (slaves*) to fester on as well as bait for hunters (Last in first out~ if a fampyr faction would be noticed, if the elder fampyrs are noticed, they'd make sure the trails lead to the latest noble added to their crew).

 

And even more, if the Player character becomes a wealthy figure in the world and their Stronghold gets all mansion like, the Player could also be confronted by the fampyrs to join their faction, wherein the player could accept, go undercover to dismantle it, or decline (with more depth of course, I'm just writing out a simplistic concept).

 

* I believe slaves is a thing in Pillars of Eternity? Nobles would have most ease to buy slaves, but of course it'd start to be suspicious when they buy lots of slaves every day, which is why a strength in numbers would be wise for fampyrs.

 

If one noble has a total of 50 slaves, and he is a fampyr, he might run dry quickly and his stockpiling and buying of new slaves would be easily noticed fairly quickly. But if there are 10 fampyrs with 50 slaves each, and they take turns buying new slaves and share their assets with one another, they might instead last much longer before being noticed.

 

In vampire fiction, it's usually the organized vampires who last for thousands of years, whilst the rebel/young or lonely vampires last for the least amount of time due to recklessness and panic... and many times an uncontrollable and non-disciplined thirst. A solo vampire only has his or her own rules, and some are intelligent, others are reckless. Whilst, often, in an organization of vampires, the rules are pretty strict and schooled.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Osvir

[Fatback]

Nonek what if it's a noble recently given "eternal" life he could be asking you to lure people to his strong hold running other evil errands to keep his needs subdued until he asks you to sacrifice one of your non hero hall companions to him. For some legendary item.

 

The good path could be you go and try to help the anima nicer cure him of his situation.

 

Edit : iPhone auto correct not bothering to change it.

[PrimeJunta]

I would expect that undeath isn't a curable condition, since death isn't either. Although I suppose it might be possible to transfer the soul of the undead noble into a living vessel. Hard to see how that would qualify as the good path though...

[Lephys]

Sounds like extended lifetime would be something an animancer would try on him- or herself just to get those extra years of research eh? "I'll get it right this time... for sure" *nom nom nom+1 week lifetime* "This time... this time for sure!!" *nom nom nom+1 week lifetime* "So close! So close!" *nom nom nom+1 week lifetime* what if there's an animancer who is a fampyr with the knowledge to make other fampyrs, but is purely doing it for research and in an obsession of finding that revolution and develops a sort of "Dracula-complex". "The oldest one". "The King and God of the Fampyrs".

True, but if there's anything the Umbrella Corporation has taught us, it's "perfect your research at others' expense, THEN use it on yourself, only to discover it's not quite as perfected as you think, and eventually end up as a boss fight."

 

I would expect that undeath isn't a curable condition, since death isn't either.

I dunno... whenever I'm feeling a bit undeath-ish, I find that a good decapitation tends to do the trick.

 

 

Also, if my character ever discovers a fampyr, I hope the game will allow me to throw them a crazy tea party and sing "A VER-y Merr-y un-DEATH DAY, to you... TO YOU!"

Edited May 21, 2014 by Lephys

[Osvir]

 

Sounds like extended lifetime would be something an animancer would try on him- or herself just to get those extra years of research eh? "I'll get it right this time... for sure" *nom nom nom+1 week lifetime* "This time... this time for sure!!" *nom nom nom+1 week lifetime* "So close! So close!" *nom nom nom+1 week lifetime* what if there's an animancer who is a fampyr with the knowledge to make other fampyrs, but is purely doing it for research and in an obsession of finding that revolution and develops a sort of "Dracula-complex". "The oldest one". "The King and God of the Fampyrs".

True, but if there's anything the Umbrella Corporation has taught us, it's "perfect your research at others' expense, THEN use it on yourself, only to discover it's not quite as perfected as you think, and eventually end up as a boss fight."

 

Yes, but putting Resident Evil aside for a moment, if you have the knowledge and done research on animancy all your life, and you've fallen into the forbidden art of extending someone's life... and you feel you are "so close" to the revolutionary discovery, but your own life is about to end. Your existance is fading. Lay down and die? Or extend your life with the techniques you've been practicing for many years?

 

Another question to the devs: Does consuming flesh of others "refine" the characters features/youth? An old man in his 80's becoming a fampyr, does he stay in his 80's appearance or potentially become younger and more vibrant? Stronger? Any powers? 

[Lephys]

Oh yeah, Osvir. Sorry, I was totally agreeing with you. I emphasized my joke too much and I guess it didn't come through that I was in agreement with just "true. BUT..."

 

Sorry about that. Yeah, longer-if-not-eternal life (while still in possession of all your faculties) at the cost of "I've gotta eat some Soylent Green"? I don't think 20-year-old animancers would jump on that. But, anyone who was older, or afflicted with any kind of life-shortening disease would totally jump on that ride.