Boko Haram and the kidnpping of the school girls

[BruceVC]

Ah the old, we should "sort out" the natives problems and by sorting out the natives themselves and everything will be fine.

 

Not really, considering the fact the Nigerian government is now officially asking for help from the international community its not unreasonable to realize that the issue is Boko Haram. And yes they do need to be sorted out

[BruceVC]

 

 

So would your advice be to just them leave alone to continue to disrupt the Nigerian way of life? I am talking about practical examples ..not magic bullets.

 

My view is a generational change over decades. Influence the government. Influence it in ways that are beneficial to the people as well as the government. I listed many examples of the problems with Nigeria. Solving one isn't going to change the culture when there's 50 other arguably more heinous things going on. Through this generational change, after say 20 years, you'll probably see a different Nigeria than what we have now.

 

I base my own experience and the experience of living in Australia with generational changes that have been introduced over the last 30 years. Things we do today, the way most people think, how people are treated are a lot different to how it was 20 or 30 years ago. Even simple things like local councils giving two bins to each household, conditioning people to place their plastic bottles, paper, cardboard boxes into one bin and everything else in the other bin. Through distributing local pamphlets to households, advertising on TV, etc. That really didn't happen 30 years ago. Or even 20 years ago in a lot of places. But it's normal now and it would be odd for a lot of people not to do it. That's just one example of how you can condition and change people. Generational change.

 

Just don't expect a magic bullet to fix Nigeria in 1 or 2 years.

 

 

You raise some good points but most people aren't  trying to change the Nigerian culture, even though social issues do need to be addressed. This type of change would take years as you mentioned

 

The issue at hand is much simpler. Its the fact that Boko Haram has been able to operate for the last few years within the borders of north eastern Nigeria with relative impunity. They have become emboldened by the lack of effectiveness of the Nigerian military forces

 

So you need to confront them and defeat them militarily, basically destroy there ability to operate. So what is the best way to do this? I still say give operational authority to Western countries to do this as they have a proven track record in several African countries. Of course the Nigerian government needs to be behind this but based on the latest comments from them that shouldn't be an issue

[HoonDing]

What will happen at the most is another impotent UN force being sent. Like in Darfur, Eastern Congo and Somalia, where the same goes on daily along with recruitment of child soldiers.

[BruceVC]

What will happen at the most is another impotent UN force being sent. Like in Darfur, Eastern Congo and Somalia, where the same goes on daily along with recruitment of child soldiers.

 

Maybe, or you could argue a temporary effective Western military  force that defeats Boko Haram and then leaves the country, like in Mali and Sierra Leone. My point is there are success stories in the African context around Western intervention

[HoonDing]

Doesn't the Delta Force deal with stuff like this?

[BruceVC]

Doesn't the Delta Force deal with stuff like this?

 

Delta Force is a very effective unit of the USA special forces but I don't think they would get  involved due to the politics. But its quite possible there advisors could give invaluable advice on the right strategy?

[Malcador]

Maybe, or you could argue a temporary effective Western military  force that defeats Boko Haram and then leaves the country, like in Mali and Sierra Leone. My point is there are success stories in the African context around Western intervention

They'll flee from that Western force and wait them out, they know they won't be around forever so that might not work.

 

Doesn't the Delta Force deal with stuff like this?

In terms of nabbing/killing specific people sure, but not quite fighting a limited war like this will need. Army SF probably will be useful, part of their job is training snakes to kill other snakes.

[BruceVC]

 

Maybe, or you could argue a temporary effective Western military  force that defeats Boko Haram and then leaves the country, like in Mali and Sierra Leone. My point is there are success stories in the African context around Western intervention

They'll flee from that Western force and wait them out, they know they won't be around forever so that might not work.

 

Doesn't the Delta Force deal with stuff like this?

In terms of nabbing/killing specific people sure, but not quite fighting a limited war like this will need. Army SF probably will be useful, part of their job is training snakes to kill other snakes.

 

 

I think a division of the 101 st airborne should to the trick?

[Sarex]

Why not just hire mercenaries, America has a bunch of them in Iraq and Afghanistan, I'm sure they could fly a few companies out to deal with it. Better yet why has no one tired to ask the Russians, I'm sure that they would, in light of all that is happening, be willing to help and they would like to show of their spetsnaz.

[Malcador]

And it'd make for an awesome movie later. 

[HoonDing]

Russians would just kill everyone. Remember the hostage crisis in that Moscow opera house.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Drudanae

[BruceVC]

Why not just hire mercenaries, America has a bunch of them in Iraq and Afghanistan, I'm sure they could fly a few companies out to deal with it. Better yet why has no one tired to ask the Russians, I'm sure that they would, in light of all that is happening, be willing to help and they would like to show of their spetsnaz.

 

Funny enough mercenaries have played a huge and important part in many African conflicts, but nowadays they aren't so politically correct. The groups in Iraq are considered private security contractors. They are more regulated and are suppose to operate with more integrity than mercenaries but I don't think this would there area of expertise

[BruceVC]

Russians would just kill everyone. Remember the hostage crisis in that Moscow opera house.

 

Also the school.......its like asking an elephant to move fragile china plates . The chine will get moved but also most of it will be broken

[Sarex]

Russians would just kill everyone. Remember the hostage crisis in that Moscow opera house.

 

Didn't they just gas the whole room, but they overestimated the ventilation or something.

[Malcador]

Hey, sometimes simple solutions work.  Doubt we'll ever see the US just bathing villages in WP and thermobaric bombs, though.

[BruceVC]

Hey, sometimes simple solutions work.  Doubt we'll ever see the US just bathing villages in WP and thermobaric bombs, though.

 

But in this case the "simple" solution killed all the hostages as well....so its not much of viable rescue strategy

[Malcador]

Well, that depends on what the problem is.  Terrorists in a building is one, killing everyone solves that.  Hostages needing rescue is a separate one.

[Meshugger]

Russians would just kill everyone. Remember the hostage crisis in that Moscow opera house.

 

To be fair, the objective was to embaress the kidnappers. If they cannot kill their hostages, then mother russia will show them how it should be done.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Russians would just kill everyone. Remember the hostage crisis in that Moscow opera house.

 

Please don't feed the troll. The opera house was very well planned by the terrorists, there was no way to resolve it without serious casualties. That's if you're referring to the civilian casualties, they never intended to let the terrorists live. The gas was a good plan but achieving optimal concentration of it in the air far more problematic when it is pumped in through ventilation and those who were closest were more exposed.

 

The alternative was to run in guns blazing and let the suicide bombers detonate and kill everyone. I think some of the bombs turned out to be fake, but they couldn't have known that.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[Zoraptor]

One of the big problems is that anaesthetics are designed to be used on someone who is lying down, not sitting. When sitting people tend to slump forward, which compresses their lungs (easy to show, sit then lean forward and you'll be able to breathe nowhere near as deeply as if sitting up, standing or lying down) and that makes them far more prone to suffocation from overdoses or even adverse reactions to standard doses. So, you have to pump in the gas, make sure people are unconscious/ kill anyone in non effected areas, disarm external booby traps, make sure bombers won't wake up inconveniently then carry unresponsive people out- and that all takes a lot of time. The problem was not so much with the response, but, as with Beslan, with the chechens getting into the theatre in the first place. As soon as that happened people were inevitably going to die and there was nothing anyone could have done about it.

 

But in this case the "simple" solution killed all the hostages as well....so its not much of viable rescue strategy

 

Show me on the dolly where Putin touched you...

 

850 hostages taken, 133 died. Even the worst alternative is 'only' 200 deaths, and that is nowhere near 'all'.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Mercenaries would be a good solution. I remember there was an African country where 100 very effective mercenaries were replaced with 1500(?) useless UN troops at UN's insistence and everything went to hell.

[Gfted1]

They should send in the Foreign Legion.

[BruceVC]

Some good news, UK and USA advisors are being sent to Nigeria to assist. They say these aren't military personnel but I'm sure they are special force soldiers from both countries

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/06/us-team-nigeria-kidnapping_n_5274484.html

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-27316182

Edited May 9, 2014 by BruceVC

[ravenshrike]

But for me the more important point is that Somalia would have had a working and growing economy as opposed the reality of the country now which is basically one of the worst failed states in the world where most of the people live in dire poverty.

 

Actually, it's kind of funny,but if you look at various demographics like education rates and per capita income adjusted for inflation et al, people in 'failed state'(When in reality it just effectively devolved into a bunch of small city-state entities controlled by various warlords) Somalia are actually better off than they were in non-failed state Somalia. Hell, I'm sure current day Zimbabweans would be happy with an actual failed state than what the have now.

 

This is the kind of comic book evil one'd typically find in Silver Age Superman comics.

Yeah, no. **** no. The human slave trade is ****ing huge, just ignored until, apparently, it looks good on Twitter given the recent hashtag horse**** going on. 

 

Personally I'm in line with Correia's take

http://monsterhunternation.com/2014/05/08/operation-pouty-face/ 

One thing I’m fairly sure of about the kind of people who do that sort of thing for a living, is that they really don’t give a **** about a bunch of American movie stars taking pouty selfies of themselves holding up signs with hash tag give our girls back. The disapproval of fat, soft, Americans on Facebook really doesn’t move them. They care about getting paid or getting killed, that’s about it. The self-righteous pouting is useless.

For the idiot libprog pussies with the selfies, the world is a violent place, filled with violent men. If you actually want something to be done about these evil people, maybe you shouldn’t bitch, whine, and moan every time our military takes action against evil people. It seems odd to me that the same people demanding military action for this are the same ones that complain about military action for anything else. Oh, but wait, I forgot, the left has no overriding principles, and to them violence is always bad unless their guy does it, and evil is relative depending on how it trends on Twitter.

This kidnapping event made the news, but this sort of thing happens every day somewhere in the world. You’re shocked and outraged about this, but that just shows how little you know about the subject. There are plenty of outrageous acts of evil out there to choose from. You can take useless photos of yourself holding up a sign, but it will do nothing other than prove to your fellow idiots that you care so hard.

You want to actually do something? You can demand that America truly be World Cop and swoop in to kill all the bad people every time they do something bad somewhere… Only if you really want that, then you probably shouldn’t bitch continually about the American military doing violent things to violent people. The problem is in reality we couldn’t afford to kill every bad person, we couldn’t pull it off anyway, and it isn’t really our problem.

But if your selective outrage is really up in arms about this one, movie stars with the hash tag, I’ve got a simple solution for you. Take some of your millions of dollars and hire some mercenaries to go into Africa to shoot all the members of Boko Haram. I wonder how that would trend on Twitter. #gurkhaskillscumbags

But the left hates the private sector, so hiring Blackwater (or whatever they are named this week) to gleefully give slavers some stylish new 5.56 body piercings is out of the question. So we’re back to being useless or taking military action. And if we drop Navy SEALs on these ****, you guys really need to think through how come it is okay for our guys to kill these woman abusing ****, but not other woman abusing ****. Those ****, left wingers invite to speak at Ivy League colleges.

The real solution? Nigeria is one of dozens of screwed up countries. If Nigeria wants to be truly safe from slavers and madmen, it is going to require the Nigerians defend themselves from ****, and if the Nigerian government won’t do it, then the Nigerian government needs to be replaced by Nigerians who want something better. For the thousands of other evil events that don’t trend on Twitter, replace Nigeria with whatever lawless hellhole country is in question and you get the same answer. People get freedom when they demand it for themselves.

 

I'm really in favor of the 'hire mercs to slaughter them all approach' as their entire group is founded on the principle that western education is evil. Among other things, their original leader stated that the world is flat, Darwinian evolution is wrong, and that rain doesn't come from evaporated water. Given their obvious girl kidnapping tendencies, introducing them to the concept of survival of the fittest using bullets would be most pleasing.

Edited May 9, 2014 by ravenshrike

[Walsingham]

I've actually met some of the old boys who were out in Africa as hired mercs in the '60s. They themselves will say that it's a lasting mystery how 800 trained soldiers - as opposed to confused half-starved militia - could decide an entire nation's future.

 

I'm not comfortable with the notion that military effectiveness decides civic quality. But then I recall that civic quality is a pretty ****ing good predictor of military effectiveness. And has been since the invention of the hoplon.

 

There was a time when Europe was nothing but tiny ineffective warring factions. What resolved that period wasn't pouty celebs. It was effective organised groups. Being bastards to anyone who wasn't organised. I don't see how it can be racist to wonder if Africa needs to do what Europe had to do. Becuase it's not about what ***ing continent you happen to be born in. It's about what species you are.