Update #77: Art in Alpha

[Sannom]

A reasonable counterargument to the idea that so-called "boob plate" may kill the wearer:

• Contrary to popular belief, "Boob Plate" armor won't kill you.

So, this idea may at least be considered suspect.

 

Meh. I thought this would prove that, no, boob plates don't redirect a weapon directly to your chest, but it actually does not, it just says that given how thick the armor is, it would be irrelevant. It would still be a massively stupid design decision if you ask me.

 

Same with the fact that falling face down might hurt someone wearing boob plate. It does not refute, in fact, it says that it's actually true. And I'm sorry, that is unacceptable, because falling face down isn't something that would happen only in the heat of battle.

 

Also, the comments refute the refutation.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Sannom

[rdmcnz]

After a quick search I was impressed to find someone had created female fitted chain armour that doesn't make me cringe.

It looks like they have also put good effort into ensuring generous arm movement.

 

https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/64386571/custom-fitted-chainmaille-shirt-womens?ref=market

 

My experience with chain armour is that the weight is taken from the shoulders and that for longer suits (hauberks) a significant amount of weight is then taken by a sturdy belt on the hips. The ability for the chain to stop the blows seemed increased by it not being taut. When the chain had more movement more of the chain was hit by the blade and the blow was better dispersed. Taut chain is easier to damage and have more of the blow pass through.

 

Another way to shape fitted armour would be to have a fitted leather armour with chain/rings/scale/plates attached to that to keep it in the desired shape.

This however would be like medium armour rather than full chain, or else considerably add to the weight of the suit.

 

The issue in my eyes would be the increased cost to create such a work of art, compared to a simple suit of chain that just drapes over and is so much easier to repair.

But then, we are going to become very wealthy adventurers...

 

[Lephys]

again, is Not fabric. is metal. Heavy metal in links or plates. is no stitch or pleat in the world that is gonna make b00b swell show in chain or scale male.

And this after you just recently chided someone else about context?

 

The only reason I mentioned fabric is because you said "this is metal, not fabric" in support of how it wouldn't be stretchy. I merely mentioned that there are fabrics out there that don't stretch at all, and are still attached together to fit a person.

 

Didn't say anything about connecting metal with stitching, or allowing metal to stretch, or metal being similar to fabric in general.

 

now, do same with chainmail or scale. what do you think happens? put a metal bustier backing into the chain, and have wearer don by being sealed in likes meat 'tween two pieces o' bread? am s'posing that would work... but can't you see just how ridiculous your example is needing to be?

Yeah, you'd have to fasten the armor laterally, like breastplates, etc. that have a back piece and a front piece, etc. I suppose you could do it by using metal bustier pieces in the chain, or a number of other ways that are a lot less ridiculous. It would probably still be more troublesome -- at the very least to put on and take off, if not also in the "it's too easy to compromise the integrity of my armor fastening" sense. That, I'm not arguing against. That would be more of a "are you gonna wear leather, or metal?" type thing. It's not that leather armor is preposterous in its design/existence. It's that you'd probably go with metal, if you had to choose (specific circumstances aside for the sake of this simple example).

 

I don't know why you won't let me make observations without simultaneously arguing "and yes, that's why it's TOTALLY practical to design armor that way, and everyone would do it! 8D"

 

Literally all I'm getting at is that it could be done. Thus, my mind isn't boggled by the aesthetic choice for the purposes of a video game.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

A reasonable counterargument to the idea that so-called "boob plate" may kill the wearer:

• Contrary to popular belief, "Boob Plate" armor won't kill you.

So, this idea may at least be considered suspect.

 

Meh. I thought this would prove that, no, boob plates don't redirect a weapon directly to your chest, but it actually does not, it just says that given how thick the armor is, it would be irrelevant. It would still be a massively stupid design decision if you ask me.

 

Same with the fact that falling face down might hurt someone wearing boob plate. It does not refute, in fact, it says that it's actually true. And I'm sorry, that is unacceptable, because falling face down isn't something that would happen only in the heat of battle.

 

Also, the comments refute the refutation.

 

 

Yep, It's not a reasonable counterpoint at all. In fact the writer doesn't even refute the points raised by the original article that he's trying to refute. His points like, "Secondly you say that landing face down could injure you, while this may be true the reality is ... you'll have bigger problems". Seriously? That's his way to refute points? Oh yes you may be correct but you're going to have bigger problems?  

 

Looks like rjshae only read the title and not the actual article. Otherwise nobody could come to the conclusion that it's a reasonable counterargument.

[Gromnir]

don't read your own posts... and irony, you take our quote and do stupid reply/quote and miss context...

 

you said: "Plenty of fabrics aren't stretchy, and yet they still get fitted to people."

 

we said: "again, is Not fabric. is metal. Heavy metal in links or plates. is no stitch or pleat in the world that is gonna make b00b swell show in chain or scale male. "

 

way to selective quote and leave out the important part. sheesh. how is you thinking they fit those non-stretch fabrics and materials to people anyway?

 

 

the rest is just silly... reduced to absolute absurd.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited May 9, 2014 by Gromnir

[Lephys]

If you don't get what I'm saying, you don't get what I'm saying. It's no big deal. The world will spin on. I just figured maybe we could get on the same page.

 

No worries, Gromnir.

 

I'm sorry that the armor design will be a hair in your soup. For realsies.

[Gromnir]

If you don't get what I'm saying, you don't get what I'm saying. It's no big deal. The world will spin on. I just figured maybe we could get on the same page.

 

No worries, Gromnir.

 

I'm sorry that the armor design will be a hair in your soup. For realsies.

there were never any argument that a suit o' costume chain or scale could be made to accommodate b00b swell, so you really haven't been making a point for quite some time.

 

b00b plate = bad

 

b00b scale = good

 

why?

 

hiro and others has identified why the insta-differentiation excuse made by obsidian is not reasonable.

 

so, what else is there?

 

once b00b plate were nixed, b00b scale became untenable save as some kinda concession to engine limitations... and that weren't the route obsidian chose.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Silent Winter]

Because I couldn't remember ever seeing boob plate on my 0.78 of an inch character on my 22" screen. Even characters smaller on a 15" monitor when BG1 was released. Which is why I said I had to boot up BG1 to find out if there was or not. I do remember using other ways to pick out which character was which and it wasn't by looking at who had boobs and who didn't.

 

Also, when you have characters not facing you like in the below screenshots, I'm not all of a sudden. Gee, which is my female fighter? I better turn the character around so I can see her boob plate. It's the same in battles. And a lot of the time, your characters are facing away from you.

In those screenshots it certainly looks like the female armour is different (more tapered to the waste perhaps?) - or is that an elf-human thing?  Info on race/class for those 2 frontliners?  And are they both wearing full-plate +0?

I take it that's the EE with the different coloured circles and new UI?

 

It is easy to distinguish in that case anyway - hopefully PoE will also be easy to tell characters apart at a glance - whether male or female or human or elf - gives them some character.

 

(Can't boot up BG myself to check it out as my home-PC isn't responding to the power button )

[Hiro Protagonist II]

No, she's human. You're right in that the different outline of the body is one of many visual cue's that you can use to work out from the male body. And they are both using the same full plate. Minsc is bigger, the human female is smaller. The armour would generally be smaller for a female. The size of the armour wouldn't be the same for everyone. eg. in real life, a smaller man would have smaller armour than a larger man. I very much doubt the smithy would have a production line with only one size.

 

And that is the EE and you can colour coordinate the circles. The colour comes from the colour you chose for the clothing on your character.

[Mor]

so, what else is there?

http://forums.obsidian.net/blog/5/entry-139-realism-vs-what-designers-care-about-verisimilitude-and-the-responsibility-of-expectations/

 

and anything you have still have problem with is magic. have fun.

[Silent Winter]

No, she's human. You're right in that the different outline of the body is one of many visual cue's that you can use to work out from the male body. And they are both using the same full plate. Minsc is bigger, the human female is smaller. The armour would generally be smaller for a female.

That's plenty then for the male/female distinction

 

The size of the armour wouldn't be the same for everyone. eg. in real life, a smaller man would have smaller armour than a larger man. I very much doubt the smithy would have a production line with only one size.

 

Of course, but in a computer game we can forgive a lack of diversity based on budget.

 

 

And that is the EE and you can colour coordinate the circles. The colour comes from the colour you chose for the clothing on your character.

Call me odd but I actually dislike that at first glance - too colourful for a UI element.  I never thought to need a different colour to see who's who in the IE games (it was always easy enough with race/gender/gear distinctions).

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

Call me odd but I actually dislike that at first glance - too colourful for a UI element.  I never thought to need a different colour to see who's who in the IE games (it was always easy enough with race/gender/gear distinctions).

 

 

I don't play BG:EE anymore. There were a few bugs that never got fixed. Others may not realise there's bugs while playing because they may not be game breaking bugs and not realise certain things aren't working as intended. But bugs introduced by Overhaul are still in the game, and that comes from meta knowledge. It's jarring for me having played the original game so many times. I just loaded that save game because it shows what you can do with the circles. I prefer the original game and continue to play it. Also, at first it was odd seeing different coloured circles, but after a while you do get used to it. Now, it doesn't bother me.

 

But yes, the models are different to differentiate them already. Even different colours of armour, different helms, etc. And a lot of the time, they will be facing away from you. Walking in directions where you won't be seeing the front of them. In battle where the enemy may be either directly above you (North) or to either side of North.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[rjshae]

 

A reasonable counterargument to the idea that so-called "boob plate" may kill the wearer:

• Contrary to popular belief, "Boob Plate" armor won't kill you.

So, this idea may at least be considered suspect.

 

Meh. I thought this would prove that, no, boob plates don't redirect a weapon directly to your chest, but it actually does not, it just says that given how thick the armor is, it would be irrelevant. It would still be a massively stupid design decision if you ask me.

 

Same with the fact that falling face down might hurt someone wearing boob plate. It does not refute, in fact, it says that it's actually true. And I'm sorry, that is unacceptable, because falling face down isn't something that would happen only in the heat of battle.

 

Also, the comments refute the refutation.

 

Well, you're welcome to your opinion, but deflection is a proven way to reduce weapon damage. If the deflection redirects the energy toward the center of the chest, that still means there are at least two impact points rather than one, and both impacts are at an angle rather than straight on. The energy is spread out and therefore the penetration factor is greatly reduced. Opinions are just opinions; it's engineering that matters.

 

As for damage from falling down, well first that assumes you fall primarily on your chest against a hard surface. That is only true part of the time, and even if it does, most if not all of the impact will be absorbed by the gambeson. That's why you wear the underlining; to absorb and distribute impact damage. Again, engineering matters. Remember, you do have other fixed, uneven surfaces on your armor. Why aren't those a concern when you fall? You're going to bash your head against the helmet--that could be devastating if it isn't absorbed.

Edited May 9, 2014 by rjshae

[rjshae]

In the absolute worse case, the "boob plate" may deflect a penetrating weapon into a direct-on impact. But this can happen with normal armor as well. Part of the energy is already absorbed by the deflection, and the impact area can be reinforced. It's like the main belt armor on a battleship--you apply extra armor to the vulnerable region. It works and is a time-tested method. (The reason battleships became vulnerable to aircraft was because they were attacked from above, and the deck armor was generally thinner.)

 

If there had been "boob plate" armor in reality, it would have evolved over time to be optimized for the battlefield. Weaknesses would have been remedied and strengths adopted. But we don't really know how it would have evolved because there are no examples available. All we have is engineering-based speculation, and the likelihood of strong cultural influences.

Edited May 9, 2014 by rjshae

[Gromnir]

 

so, what else is there?

http://forums.obsidian.net/blog/5/entry-139-realism-vs-what-designers-care-about-verisimilitude-and-the-responsibility-of-expectations/

 

and anything you have still have problem with is magic. have fun.

 

not helpful, though we know you Think you made a wonderful contribution, so...

 

*hands mor a cookie*

 

the bit you link is general/abstract. we already had josh respond actual. actual trumps abstract every time.

 

you want our opinion 'bout realism? can go back up and read any number o' posts we has made on this subject that specific address same subject matter of linked post. am thinking you would be surprised. nevertheless, it don't matter, just as your linked don't matter. we got what obsidian is actual doing with b00b plate and we got what josh said is reasoning for b00b scale.

 

am honestly baffled by the community and obsidian. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited May 9, 2014 by Gromnir

[Gromnir]

 

 

And that is the EE and you can colour coordinate the circles. The colour comes from the colour you chose for the clothing on your character.

Call me odd but I actually dislike that at first glance - too colourful for a UI element.  I never thought to need a different colour to see who's who in the IE games (it was always easy enough with race/gender/gear distinctions).

 

we found the circles useful. am not a huge fan o' the aesthetic, but hiro screenshots does not reveal when the circles is most useful: in combat. particular in bg2ee, there is dark environments, multiple spell effects and many enemies on screen at same time. picture using entangle and grease as well as maybe an ice storm on enemy grouping in one o' those bg2 sewer battles ...'course you has summoned critters as well to add some bodies to the mix. enemy probable has spell casting, so expect having multiple enemy spell effects cluttering screen, and enemy melee is is gonna be in 'mongst your party... and some o' the enemies might even be wearing gear similar to yours. 

 

the color circles may appear unpleasant at first glance, but in actual combat situations, they is a great idea...  and you could turn them off if we recall correct.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[rjshae]

If there had been so-called "boob plate", might I suggest it may have followed the tradition of the Roman muscle cuirass?

 

[Sannom]

Well, you're welcome to your opinion, but deflection is a proven way to reduce weapon damage. If the deflection redirects the energy toward the center of the chest, that still means there are at least two impact points rather than one, and both impacts are at an angle rather than straight on. The energy is spread out and therefore the penetration factor is greatly reduced. Opinions are just opinions; it's engineering that matters.

Yeah, but the article isn't really convincing me of the engineering it's trying to defend, and the comments seem very adamant that boob plates are awful even from an engineering perspective.

 

If there had been so-called "boob plate", might I suggest it may have followed the tradition of the Roman muscle cuirass?

That's not an armor, that's a statue.

[rjshae]

If there had been so-called "boob plate", might I suggest it may have followed the tradition of the Roman muscle cuirass?

 

That's not an armor, that's a statue.

 

Look again. It's a statue showing a person wearing muscle cuirass. Just Google it; there's a ton of examples.

 

[rjshae]

 

Well, you're welcome to your opinion, but deflection is a proven way to reduce weapon damage. If the deflection redirects the energy toward the center of the chest, that still means there are at least two impact points rather than one, and both impacts are at an angle rather than straight on. The energy is spread out and therefore the penetration factor is greatly reduced. Opinions are just opinions; it's engineering that matters.

Yeah, but the article isn't really convincing me of the engineering it's trying to defend, and the comments seem very adamant that boob plates are awful even from an engineering perspective.

 

Well the same concerns can be raised with many helm designs.

 

 

There is also the point that many such non-optimal features were shaped by cultural preferences, rather than best engineering practices. Some amount of armor shaping for reasons of pure vanity is likely to occur.

[Gromnir]

 

If there had been so-called "boob plate", might I suggest it may have followed the tradition of the Roman muscle cuirass?

 

That's not an armor, that's a statue.

 

Look again. It's a statue showing a person wearing muscle cuirass. Just Google it; there's a ton of examples.

 

 

am not sure why you bring this into the mix. muscle cuirass were indeed used by roman & greek men...typically used by officers. were often well-crafted armour, but it were costume armour. show us a picture o' an english major during ww 2 wearing riding boots and armed with little more than a riding crop and use as an example o' english soldier kit? 'course not. also, and more important, b00b plate is out for poe. folks felt b00b plate were ridiculous... weren't a question o' could b00b plate be crafted. you can make plate in all kinda freaky shapes. the thing is, women is shaped different than men, and if a chest plate were designed with b00bs it would decrease its efficacy. the community were displeased and asked obsidian to nix b00b plate. now Given that b00b is out 'cause o' ridiculousness, the question is why obsidian would offer b00b scale... and why community feels different 'bout something no less implausible. 

 

muscle cuirass? ok. so?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[rjshae]

am not sure why you bring this into the mix. muscle cuirass were indeed used by roman & greek men...typically used by officers. were often well-crafted armour, but it were costume armour. show us a picture o' an english major during ww 2 wearing riding boots and armed with little more than a riding crop and use as an example o' english soldier kit? 'course not. also, and more important, b00b plate is out for poe. folks felt b00b plate were ridiculous... weren't a question o' could b00b plate be crafted. you can make plate in all kinda freaky shapes. the thing is, women is shaped different than men, and if a chest plate were designed with b00bs it would decrease its efficacy. the community were displeased and asked obsidian to nix b00b plate. now Given that b00b is out 'cause o' ridiculousness, the question is why obsidian would offer b00b scale... and why community feels different 'bout something no less implausible. 

 

 

muscle cuirass? ok. so?

 

It's not clear? Well it's a historical example of a type of armor designed to exaggerate masculine features. There's no particular defensive benefit to the shape; it requires additional work to build and it is less than optimal from an engineering perspective. But I have to wonder: if there had been no such armor, would the same individuals be clamoring to have it removed from the game as completely ridiculous?

 

I'm just making a point from a cultural perspective here that it is a political bias that is shaping opinions on the matter. Not a sense of anthropological or engineering realism.

[Lephys]

rjshae... This argument has been lured to the Hot Gates... our reasoning will count for nothing!

[Gromnir]

...

 

but it don't matter. am not thinking that people are complete ignorant o' the notion of costume armour.  and regardless, the overwhelming consensus o' the community were such that costume armour that would call for b00b plate should be rejected. the reasoning were that b00b plate were sexist, demeaning and implausible. therefore, revealing male costume armour is not as meaningful as you seem to believe.the observation that there has indeed been armour shaped like a male chest is simply not meaningful. it don't make b00b plate more functional, and it not change fact that community were outraged. it don't change fact that b00b scale is no different than b00b plate as far as functionality is concerned.... and in point o' fact, crafting b00b scale would be more difficult than crafting b00b plate.

 

b00b plate = no

 

b00b scale = yes

 

why? 

 

nobody is answering and the distinction makes no sense, regardless o' excuses being given by obsidian. 

 

you wanna ask: male cuirass v. b00b scale? or is some other reason for raising such an issue. why? it don't matter at this point. muscle cuirass examples add nothing to such a debate. and let's be honest, the questionable design o' b00b plate is admittedly less functional than a muscle cuirass, so is not exactly an obvious case o' community hypocrisy.  

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps your input is akin to those folks who observed that if b00b plate or scale were in, then so should visible cod pieces.  no doubt such observations were deemed clever or colorful by the folks who initiated such lines o' debate, but the cod piece bit lacked actual relevance.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Gromnir

[rjshae]

Meh, whatever. I just want armor that looks somewhat plausible and has plenty of character variety and distinctiveness. Ludicrous chain mail bikinis? No. Form fitting flexible scale armor for male and female with some exaggeration for pixel displays? I'm totally fine with that. You have your preferences, I have mine. I'm not really seeing why you have an issue (other than politics), and I probably don't care.