Stealth and Combat

[Mor]

We have been given a lot of info on how Stealth work outside of combat, but I don't recall any specifics about how would it work during combat(i.e. rouge hide in shadows), I don't suppose its a non-combat skill only so any thoughts?

 

We have the alertness states (creatures will investigate if you move in too close and cry out an alert and attack if they find you) maybe they will play a role during combat as well e.g. alerted/engaged creatures will have an increase detection radius and thus far harder to fool.

 

Or maybe there will be a check for entering stealth during combat, because if now everyone can sneak, then it will be too simple to just pull a Houdini during combat and or troll path finding with the act.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Mor

[Ffordesoon]

Why wouldn't it only be a non-combat skill? That's kind of what stealth is, isn't it?

 

I mean, I guess there's Batman-style "combat stealth," but he still has to come out of the shadows and attack for a second at some point, and it's not like the rest of the Justice League is being equally sneaky, is it? Maybe there's a way for Rogues to disengage and hide for a little bit, but in general, once your party's seen, it should probably stay that way, no?

[Nonek]

If you hide your make up in a dark enough spot I assume no one will find it.

 

Edit: Sorry, couldn't resist.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Nonek

[Mor]

@Ffordesoon, No reason why it should, but we had so many gameplay changes that effected stealth, that I am not certain what its role within combat anymore.

 

We know that skills aren't class specific, so theoretically you can pump up any class to be stealth master (which would be almost as good as rouge, at least stats wise). Would that offer any benefits outside of avoiding combat? certainly you wont have rouge's abilities(class specific), but would you be able to be heavy hinting Marauder that can "phase" in\out anywhere or?

 

Maybe there's a way for Rogues to disengage and hide for a little bit, but in general, once your party's seen, it should probably stay that way, no?

I don't know, but the disengagement mechanic might be what balance things right now.

[teknoman2]

there is the surprise attack factor where you score an automatic critical for full damage if you attack an enemy from stealth (or within 2s from the moment you break stealth) no matter your class or stats. rogues get their sneak attack bonus as well in this case

now to just go into stealth mode in the middle of a fight is not nor should it be possible. the enemies are in a state of high alert so unless you can go completelly invisible you cant sneak up on them

stealth in PE is not like BG. you dont just press a button and go invisible. it's more like stealth in Deus Ex: the enemies can see you if you are within their detection range and have nothing to hide behind

Edited April 27, 2014 by teknoman2

[Mor]

Do we even break stealth? which in IE games was like invisibility, maybe here sneaking is more worldly concept, being noticed by one guard who alert other to your position doesn't mean the others see you. Of course if you fighter start attacking his "radi" will increase significantly and draw attention, but what about the ranger, can he shoot from scouting mode remaining invisible most of the time?

Edited April 27, 2014 by Mor

[Chippy]

Rouge jokes still going strong?.  I would have thought ten years ago we'd be making jokes about save vs indigestion before backstabbing an enemy and failing stealth...

I should be happy the incline has started with POE though.   

[Suburban-Fox]

The rouge jokes will continue as long as people continue to mis-spell 'rogue'.

[kronyth]

Sneak skill seems like non combat skill only, for circumvent encounters or setting positions before one. Moreover it has been said that entering Scouting Mode will cause "all party members move at walking speed", so I suspect that scouting mode is party feature (like formations) that will be in effect until one of the party members get made.

[Lephys]

^ That makes me wonder if it'll actually be usable in combat. Maybe, so long as you're outside of the enemy's detection radius, you can enter stealth mode to the same effect, even in the midst of combat? Your Rogue can run off and hide (or just go behind a tree/wall, etc.), then pop back out "in stealth" to land another Sneak Attack on that foe who's re-focused its attention on some other party member? *shrug*

[Silent Winter]

^maybe - but remember that it's not like pseudo-invisibility (as in IE games) - it's more about detection radius.  So the enemies' detection radius might be really big in combat and nullify the ability to 'sneak' up to them.

Rogues get their sneak attack bonus within the first 2 seconds of 'combat' according to Josh - might suggest it's only useable at the start.

[Mor]

^ Make sense, since Sneak attack are mostly aren't about sneaking (or hiding in shadows), but exploiting tactical situations. http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Sneak_Attack

[Silent Winter]

^ Make sense, since Sneak attack are mostly aren't about sneaking (or hiding in shadows), but exploiting tactical situations. http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Sneak_Attack

ah, that's right - I was thinking just about the first 'sneak attack' but yes, they also get it if the enemy is under one of those conditions.

[Lephys]

Well, yeah, I'm not saying "because you have stealth, you just get to be stealthy." I mean, I wonder if combat's going to make it so that enemies are just too alert for actual stealth to work, or if it could still work so long as it would've worked in not-combat (you're outside their detection zone, etc.). And/or, if the typical scope of combat encounters is even going to be big enough to ever feasibly allow for such a thing without your Rogue having to run 75 meters away from everyone else, try to stealth, then run back in, etc.

 

That's why I mentioned obstacles and such. I mean, I had a lot of fun with stuff like this in PnP D&D. You had to be fighting in some place with lots of corners/alcoves/trees/foliage, though. You couldn't just step 3 feet behind an enemy, "stealth," and go unseen from there. Well, not with how our DM did it, anyway. I guess, technically, the rules kind of allowed for stealth success in broad daylight, in the middle of a dirt field. 8P

 

But, yeah, I'm just wondering if it's possible to utilize stealth in combat situations, and, if so, if it's ever feasible.

[Mor]

Well, yeah, I'm not saying "because you have stealth, you just get to be stealthy." I mean, I wonder if combat's going to make it so that enemies are just too alert for actual stealth to work, or if it could still work so long as it would've worked in not-combat (you're outside their detection zone, etc.). And/or, if the typical scope of combat encounters is even going to be big enough to ever feasibly allow for such a thing without your Rogue having to run 75 meters away from everyone else, try to stealth, then run back in, etc.

The only thing we know to effect stealth detection radius's is our actions, which increase our visibility radius, enemy 2 state detection radius seem to be constant.

 

I also wonder if ranger or any support unit at the back can use stealth to avoid getting to much attention during combat from various marauders.

 

as for Rogues they don't need to run anywhere to get "stealthy"(see previous post) e.g. double decking any character is enough(if you can position your rogue behind an enemey unit which is already engaged, you get your sneak attack.

 

That's why I mentioned obstacles and such. I mean, I had a lot of fun with stuff like this in PnP D&D. You had to be fighting in some place with lots of corners/alcoves/trees/foliage, though. You couldn't just step 3 feet behind an enemy, "stealth," and go unseen from there. Well, not with how our DM did it, anyway. I guess, technically, the rules kind of allowed for stealth success in broad daylight, in the middle of a dirt field. 8P

 

But, yeah, I'm just wondering if it's possible to utilize stealth in combat situations, and, if so, if it's ever feasible.

I don't know if you can utilize stealth in combat in anyway, but you can still sneak up on unaware enemies at the beginning. Also there is no LOS(line of sight, light or whatever) only detection radius's, so no utilizing obstacles at least in game mechanics, but no one said you can't RP it in your head

[Lephys]

@Mor... To clarify, I'm well aware how Sneak Attacks work. I'm literally just talking about Stealth (with a capital S) as it is named and specified in the mechanics of the game. I apologize if my wording made it seem like I thought sneak attack = attack from Stealth mode. That is not the case.

 

But, yes, I'm just curious, since nothing has really been said specifically about it (I don't think?), how the combat state affects Stealth mode, if at all.

 

One of the conditions that contributes to sneak-attackery is "attack within the first 2 seconds of combat." So, that makes it seem as though, in combat, enemies are a lot more aware of your presence (mechanically) than they were before combat began. Understandably so. But, I'm just curious exactly how the mechanics treat this.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Lephys

[rjshae]

The rouge jokes will continue as long as people continue to mis-spell 'rogue'.

 

[Lephys]

What do you derisively bark at the Rogue whom you force to carry all your stuff?

 

"Mule on, Rouge!"

 

Call me a recent installment of Halo, 'cause that was a Reach!

[Mor]

One of the conditions that contributes to sneak-attackery is "attack within the first 2 seconds of combat." So, that makes it seem as though, in combat, enemies are a lot more aware of your presence (mechanically) than they were before combat began. Understandably so. But, I'm just curious exactly how the mechanics treat this.

As I understand once the enemy inner detection radius touch yours, they become aware of you and switch to alert state calling up for help. The 2 second rule is the "surprise" attack window, during which they unable to defend themselves effectively from your attacks.

 

As I said it mean to simulate you sneaking up them unaware i.e. you need high enough Stealth skill (compared to enemy perception) so you can get close enough to the enemies (your\their detection radius is small enough) to make use of that window.

 

After that I have no idea what (if any) application Stealth has in Combat.

[nipsen]

Mulling rouges? Pretty sure it's just difficult to design something that makes sense in a normal 3d level. You can't have people starting to sneak and disappear in plain sight. And the levels don't tend to be big enough, or the battles long enough for it to make sense for a thief to sneak off and flank someone. Breaking line of sight and somehow disappearing makes no sense unless it's in a maze of a dungeon, or a thick forest.

 

And none of that ever happens in a game, and it doesn't work in pen and paper either. So the thing that could make a thief and sneak attacks useful in combat is: smoke, mirror images, invisibility, cloak, warp and physical or magical disables, along with knock-downs. *shrug*

 

I don't know. I always liked the idea of solving this by having a combat stage - before the enemy would be completely aware of your team. So if you had a thief in your party, they could scout ahead, or create an actual ambush, and so on. Same with the wizards or priests casting small spells silently to light up the path ahead, or to bless a weapon, that sort of thing. Low-level, silent spells and abilities suddenly becomes useful, if you actually have a party with a thief, and people not running around in clanking plate. Not sure how that would be implemented in a game. But if you did that, you could imagine having a hit at the beginning of the battle, while the thief disappears out of the combat zone, puts down some traps again, the party retreats there, traps go off, thief backstabs weak wizard at the back of the party, and so on.

 

Or else it's wizard-thiefs, and druid-rogues, I guess, that would work in combat. Which makes no sense to me.

[constantine]

It's possible to set up ambushes in PoE by sneaking up on enemies (and rogues still get their Sneak Atk bonus when an enemy is affected by 1 of various Status Effects, as it was mentioned above).

 

However, if whole party 'sneaks', your detection level is based by the worst teammate.

 

I would be more interested in sending my rogue(s) ambush a group of enemies, then disengage and luring them to where the rest of the party is hiding; maybe enabling the party to perform a surprise attack as well.

 

But we'll have to test those strategies in actual combat to see how it goes.

[rjshae]

Given the sneak radius they are implementing, one tactic could be to arrange the party so that the more stealthy party members are at point with the heavy iron further back in reserve. That way the sneaky characters get close enough to launch a surprise round, while the clunkers run forward to engage the survivors.

 

To do that, we would need to be able to organize different formations then switch between them based on the circumstance. Plus the game would need to allow the party to perform ambushes.

[J.E. Sawyer]

The scouting state ends when the party enters combat, i.e. when a party member is being targeted by a hostile character.  Using scouting to set up ambushes is extremely valuable even if you don't get right up in the eyeballs of enemies before you attack them.  There are some practical gameplay limitations on how many traps you can put down, but scouting also allows you to do that, which can be very valuable for softening up a horde of attackers.

 

One of the rogue's Sneak Attack conditions is "within the first two seconds of combat".  It might not sound like much, but in most cases it's good for at least one really nasty shot, melee or ranged.  If that first attack is paired with one of the rogue's Affliction attacks like Blinding Strike or Crippling Strike, they can immediately chain that into a series of Sneak Attacks.

[Helz]

So you can stunlock an enemy and then chain sneak attacks on him?  Nice :D

[J.E. Sawyer]

I have yet to see any characters stunlocked by standard damage-dealing attacks (i.e. by attacks other than those that cause the Prone, Paralyzed, Petrified, etc. Afflictions).  Most attacks that have high Interrupt ratings also have slow attack rates.  What a rogue can do is put an enemy in a variety of states that ensure Sneak Attack is continuously valid against them.