Israel vs Palestine

[Gfted1]

Jeez, that link about the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation was depressing as hell.

[BruceVC]

Jeez, that link about the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation was depressing as hell.

 

You should come  to the Romance thread and support me in my endeavours there Gfted1? That always seems to make you laugh..... 

Edited August 6, 2014 by BruceVC

[Malcador]

Thankfully the "information" war will die down. Tired of people either stroking it to the lions of the IDF and how their existence is under threat or endless photos of dead or maimed civilians (though the latter really has my sympathy, not fun to live blinded or brain damaged, for example).

[BruceVC]

Thankfully the "information" war will die down. Tired of people either stroking it to the lions of the IDF and how their existence is under threat or endless photos of dead or maimed civilians (though the latter really has my sympathy, not fun to live blinded or brain damaged, for example).

 

I'm also fatigued with the lack of objectiveness and reasonableness from certain groups on both sides

[Gromnir]

Jeez, that link about the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation was depressing as hell.

some things is better on the rez today as 'posed to when Gromnir were a kid. it never got much play in the newspapers, but we lost many old people during the winters back in the 70s. many. you got ramshackle houses with little insulation and no electricity. as a kid, our nearest neighbor were over a mile distant and that weren't uncommon. we had no snow removal service and far fewer telephones than we got today. not need to be a genius to guess what happens to folks when blizzards hit in south dakota.

 

http://www.blackhillsbadlands.com/resources/files/page_photos/000Photos/badlands/Badlands_prairieforeground_.jpg

 

kinda pretty, yes? notice many trees? even those old folks spry enough to chop wood for their stove would need travel far to find enough such fuel, and they woulds need do so in deep snows and bitter cold weather. 

 

our grandfather were part o' the self-appointed group that would literal dig the dead out o' their snowed-in homes in spring each year. Many dead.  they were just old folks, and they had US citizenship, so they could just leave, right? we would play in the snow as our grandfather and a small group o' volunteers dug the dead out o' their homes. the only surprising thing were the number o' dogs that managed to survive after their owners died. at least one o' the "rescue" party would carry a gun with them to put such be-damned critters down. most such beasts were in such bad shape that killing were a mercy. others had turned feral. regardless, is not as if we had a local spca shelter. the sound o' the gun going off never failed to startle us, even if we were expecting it. odd.

[TrashMan]

Kidding right? Aravs/Muslims can't even live with just fellow Arabs/Muslims without mass murdering each other. And, you expect us to believe that Arab/Muslim countries would get along with a non Arab/Muslim population? Jewish populations in every single Arab/Muslim state have always been treated as trash at best and their numbers kept low. Same with christians.

 

Yes they can. And yes they have. Trought history. Learn a bit, you'd be surprised.

It's populat to use stereotypes and special/singular events and inflate them to over 9000, but that's not how the world works.

 

Irocnically, often in the past people have been more tolerant than today.

 

[BruceVC]

 

Kidding right? Aravs/Muslims can't even live with just fellow Arabs/Muslims without mass murdering each other. And, you expect us to believe that Arab/Muslim countries would get along with a non Arab/Muslim population? Jewish populations in every single Arab/Muslim state have always been treated as trash at best and their numbers kept low. Same with christians.

 

Yes they can. And yes they have. Trought history. Learn a bit, you'd be surprised.

It's populat to use stereotypes and special/singular events and inflate them to over 9000, but that's not how the world works.

 

Irocnically, often in the past people have been more tolerant than today.

 

 

 

There are several Muslim countries where there are no conflicts. Like Malaysia, Indonesia and Philippines

 

But at the moment the Middle East is a particularly violent place, like

 

• New conflict in southern Lebanon
• Civil war in Syria
• ISIS fighting the Kurds, the Syrians and the currently elected Iraq government
• Ongoing extremist violence  in Yemen
• Gaza conflict

 

And this excludes the sectarian  violence in Libya and Egypt

 

In fact we don't often see this but Africa has less conflicts than the Middle East at the moment

[Gromnir]

 

 

Kidding right? Aravs/Muslims can't even live with just fellow Arabs/Muslims without mass murdering each other. And, you expect us to believe that Arab/Muslim countries would get along with a non Arab/Muslim population? Jewish populations in every single Arab/Muslim state have always been treated as trash at best and their numbers kept low. Same with christians.

 

Yes they can. And yes they have. Trought history. Learn a bit, you'd be surprised.

It's populat to use stereotypes and special/singular events and inflate them to over 9000, but that's not how the world works.

 

Irocnically, often in the past people have been more tolerant than today.

 

 

 

There are several Muslim countries where there are no conflicts. Like Malaysia, Indonesia and Philippines

 

But at the moment the Middle East is a particularly violent place, like

 

• New conflict in southern Lebanon
• Civil war in Syria
• ISIS fighting the Kurds, the Syrians and the currently elected Iraq government
• Ongoing extremist violence  in Yemen
• Gaza conflict

 

And this excludes the sectarian  violence in Libya and Egypt

 

In fact we don't often see this but Africa has less conflicts than the Middle East at the moment

 

philipines is overwhelming catholic.

 

malaysia... is maybe not as great an example as you think, even though it is probable the best example. 

 

http://www.malaysianbar.org.my/selected_judgements/lina_joy_v_majlis_agama_islam_wilayah_persekutuan_2_ors_2005_ca.html

 

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/ft-disaster-looms-amid-rising-religious-intolerance-in-malaysia-neighbours

 

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2010/rich-trzupek/malaysia-and-the-myth-of-islamic-tolerance/

 

am admitting we know very little about indonesia.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Kidding right? Aravs/Muslims can't even live with just fellow Arabs/Muslims without mass murdering each other. And, you expect us to believe that Arab/Muslim countries would get along with a non Arab/Muslim population? Jewish populations in every single Arab/Muslim state have always been treated as trash at best and their numbers kept low. Same with christians.

 

Yes they can. And yes they have. Trought history. Learn a bit, you'd be surprised.

It's populat to use stereotypes and special/singular events and inflate them to over 9000, but that's not how the world works.

 

Irocnically, often in the past people have been more tolerant than today.

 

 

 

There are several Muslim countries where there are no conflicts. Like Malaysia, Indonesia and Philippines

 

But at the moment the Middle East is a particularly violent place, like

 

• New conflict in southern Lebanon
• Civil war in Syria
• ISIS fighting the Kurds, the Syrians and the currently elected Iraq government
• Ongoing extremist violence  in Yemen
• Gaza conflict

 

And this excludes the sectarian  violence in Libya and Egypt

 

In fact we don't often see this but Africa has less conflicts than the Middle East at the moment

 

philipines is overwhelming catholic.

 

malaysia... is maybe not as great an example as you think, even though it is probable the best example. 

 

http://www.malaysianbar.org.my/selected_judgements/lina_joy_v_majlis_agama_islam_wilayah_persekutuan_2_ors_2005_ca.html

 

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/ft-disaster-looms-amid-rising-religious-intolerance-in-malaysia-neighbours

 

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2010/rich-trzupek/malaysia-and-the-myth-of-islamic-tolerance/

 

am admitting we know very little about indonesia.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

You right Gromnir, I don't know why I thought the Philippines was predominantly  Muslim. I must have been getting it confused with Indonesia ?

[Volourn]

"A group of about 20 Palestinians, some of whom were scheduled to enter Israel for cancer treatment, had arrived at the crossing early on Tuesday, an AFP correspondent said."

 

But, this is illogical. Isreal is the devil. Why would they allow Palestinians to come to isreal for any kind of medical treatment if their goal is to kill every last Palestinian. Weird way to go about it. I seriously doubt Nazi Germany (who people just love to compare isreal to) had a habit of  habitually giving expensive medical treatment to jews or other 'undesrieables').

 

 

"Yes they can. And yes they have. Trought history. Learn a bit, you'd be surprised.

It's populat to use stereotypes and special/singular events and inflate them to over 9000, but that's not how the world works."

 

Sadly, the exceptions prove the rule.

 

"Irocnically, often in the past people have been more tolerant than today."

 

\HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Valsuelm]

"A group of about 20 Palestinians, some of whom were scheduled to enter Israel for cancer treatment, had arrived at the crossing early on Tuesday, an AFP correspondent said."

 

But, this is illogical. Isreal is the devil. Why would they allow Palestinians to come to isreal for any kind of medical treatment if their goal is to kill every last Palestinian. Weird way to go about it. I seriously doubt Nazi Germany (who people just love to compare isreal to) had a habit of  habitually giving expensive medical treatment to jews or other 'undesrieables').

 

 

"Yes they can. And yes they have. Trought history. Learn a bit, you'd be surprised.

It's populat to use stereotypes and special/singular events and inflate them to over 9000, but that's not how the world works."

 

Sadly, the exceptions prove the rule.

 

"Irocnically, often in the past people have been more tolerant than today."

 

\HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

Seriously doubt? This isn't a matter of opinion, the facts can be found. Go find them before you jabber please. You really need to go learn you some history. Of World War 2, Germany, Israel, Palestine, the middle east in general, and I've little doubt a slew of other subjects..

 

And the exception is modern times, not history. Most of the strife in modern times is due to a whole lotta people such as yourself buying into the divide and conquer tactics of those who would delude you to steal yours and/or others resources and wealth. That and the conflicts, both the hot and the cold, in the middle east and near everywhere else are fomented and funded by the same evil folks who would delude you. But you'd know this, if you actually knew yourself some history and real world politik. But hey, keep on seriously doubting things that happened, and are indeed intended. Be ignorant. It's the cool thing to do. Near everyone else is doing it. Think that there's some deep ingrain hatred amongst all Arabs and has been since time immemorial. Nevermind reality. Keep on buying the BS, it's certainly being sold in droves, and the price is only other people's blood so, what the heck? Why not. right?

Edited August 6, 2014 by Valsuelm

[Volourn]

"delude you to steal your"

 

You are deluded if you think I have anything worth stealing. L0L

 

 

"Think that there's some deep ingrain hatred amongst all Arabs"

 

Not all. In fact, I'd say most aren't. Just the extreme religious fanatics who seem to get themselves in power.  You should do some real resarch on history  and real world politiks. You might learn a thing or too b/c all of you've spammed is 'isreal are children eaters' and  'Hams is innocent' garbage. Hard to take you seriously.

[Zoraptor]

There are several Muslim countries where there are no conflicts. Like Malaysia, Indonesia and Philippines

 

 

Indonesia has had some problems, though they are generally in abeyance at present- Ambon (and other spice islands) and the Bali bombing was aimed equally much at idolator Balinese Hindus as hedonist atheistic westerners. Plus various separatist movements, though that is hardly unique to muslim countries.

[Valsuelm]

"delude you to steal your"

 

You are deluded if you think I have anything worth stealing. L0L

 

 

"Think that there's some deep ingrain hatred amongst all Arabs"

 

Not all. In fact, I'd say most aren't. Just the extreme religious fanatics who seem to get themselves in power.  You should do some real resarch on history  and real world politiks. You might learn a thing or too b/c all of you've spammed is 'isreal are children eaters' and  'Hams is innocent' garbage. Hard to take you seriously.

 

I never once said Israeli's eat children, nor did I say Hamas is innocent. In your polarized mind it doesn't surprise me it must be thus in your head. The reality is that this post is the first time I've mentioned Hamas in this thread. But hey, don't let reality get in the way of a good sounding false accusation or the self reassuring spouting of your sciolisms.

 

Of course you don't take me seriously. To do so, would mean you'd have to actually go learn yourself some things, think, and admit you're wrong. The latter is likely your biggest obstacle, it is for most. It's much easier to hold onto that paradigm given to you, and to buy that BS being peddled with other people's blood, as you don't need to truly think or actually do any work yourself.

[Tsuga C]

Numbers so far:

 

1156 palestinians dead, 6700 injured - EDIT: (??? Now I'm reading around 1700 dead and 9000 injured?)

53 soldiers and 3 civilians dead

That's a good start. Israel, finish the job.

[Volourn]

"Of course you don't take me seriously. To do so, would mean you'd have to actually go learn yourself some things, think, and admit you're wrong. The latter is likely your biggest obstacle, it is for most. It's much easier to hold onto that paradigm given to you, and to buy that BS being peddled with other people's blood, as you don't need to truly think or actually do any work yourself."

 

It's like looking into a mirror, right?

[Gromnir]

 

I have said this before but Hamas uses civilian casualties to gain international sympathy and support for there political objectives

What's that famous quote attributed to Goebbles

 

"If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself."

 

Seriously, despite the fact that people keep repeating that there's no serious evidence to support it. The IDF on the other hand...

 

(pic)

That's a Palestinian child they're using btw.

Bulls****.

Millions of poeple? There's no way to tell.

 

Japan was already close to the breaking point. A simple blockade was all that was necessary - heck, no even that.

Actually Imperial Japan had already been negotiating a conditional surrender to the U.S.S.R (amusingly Stalin was the good cop to America's bad cop), unfortunately for the Japanese the Yanks wanted nothing less than an unconditional surrender to the U.S.A.

 

can't believe we didn't see this till now. uhm, the ussr declared war on japan After the atomic bomb were dropped on hiroshima. you not see the problem? actually, is arguable that soviet deceleration o' war were as much contributing to japan surrender as were bomb droppings, and that until soviet declared war,  japan had no intention o' surrendering. such is the opinion o' many historians such as Tsuyoshi Hasegawa and Richard Rhodes. 

 

the revisionist bs 'bout japan being ready to surrender is an extreme minority viewpoint nowadays and has been almost wholly discredited by reputable scholars... though am s'posing it still has some popularity 'mongst wikipedia "scholars."

 

*insert gratuitous eye roll here*

 

as for predicted deaths, dr. william shockley, the guy who would eventual win nobel prize in physics in 1956 for work on semiconductors, had been using math to better kill nazis and japaneses during ww2. 

 

"Shockley may have saved thousands of lives without leaving his desk. When war broke out, Morse was recruited to research munitions problems the Navy was having, mostly with its depth charges. Shockley volunteered to join Morse's office, the Anti-Submarine Warfare Operations Group. Under Morse's guidance, Shockley and his team solved the depth charge problem and successful attacks on German U-boats increased by a factor of five. Shockley's main weapon was the science of operations research, then largely ignored in the U.S., but already recruited for the war effort by the British. He then went about changing the way the Navy searched for submarines, again improving the kill-ratio. He devised tactics for the Atlantic convoys to evade German bombers after determining statistically – and without ever seeing either a convoy or a bomber – that the bombers did not carry radar. 

 

"Shockley eventually wound up in the Army Air Corps, helping train bomber crews in the European theater. He became one of the highest ranking civilian scientists outside Los Alamos, and was the keeper of some of America's most closely held secrets. He traveled all over the world. By the war's end, he had essentially designed the training of all American bomber crews and found ways of increasing their effectiveness even in bad weather. He won the National Medal of Merit."

 

turns out that shockley were a bit o' a racist, but he were undeniably scary brilliant. his estimates for US casualties for an invasion o' japan were 1.4-4 million US GI casualties with 400-800k o' those being deaths. his prediction for japanese deaths were even more grim: as high as 10 MILLION japanese deaths.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

clarification for folks who misread history and maybe is confused:

 

japan did send telegrams to soviets requesting mediation. is not same as claims that there were actual negotiations or that japan were ready to capitulate. soviets answered request by attacking japanese forces in manchuria. chance for japanese leaders to keep territory and avoid war crimes ended when soviets declared war, but japan were quite willing to fight the Americans, even after bomb dropped.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 7, 2014 by Gromnir

[BruceVC]

 

Numbers so far:

 

1156 palestinians dead, 6700 injured - EDIT: (??? Now I'm reading around 1700 dead and 9000 injured?)

53 soldiers and 3 civilians dead

That's a good start. Israel, finish the job.

 

 

Very unhelpful comment considering the situation

[JadedWolf]

 

 

 

 

Kidding right? Aravs/Muslims can't even live with just fellow Arabs/Muslims without mass murdering each other. And, you expect us to believe that Arab/Muslim countries would get along with a non Arab/Muslim population? Jewish populations in every single Arab/Muslim state have always been treated as trash at best and their numbers kept low. Same with christians.

 

Yes they can. And yes they have. Trought history. Learn a bit, you'd be surprised.

It's populat to use stereotypes and special/singular events and inflate them to over 9000, but that's not how the world works.

 

Irocnically, often in the past people have been more tolerant than today.

 

 

 

There are several Muslim countries where there are no conflicts. Like Malaysia, Indonesia and Philippines

 

But at the moment the Middle East is a particularly violent place, like

 

• New conflict in southern Lebanon
• Civil war in Syria
• ISIS fighting the Kurds, the Syrians and the currently elected Iraq government
• Ongoing extremist violence  in Yemen
• Gaza conflict

 

And this excludes the sectarian  violence in Libya and Egypt

 

In fact we don't often see this but Africa has less conflicts than the Middle East at the moment

 

philipines is overwhelming catholic.

 

malaysia... is maybe not as great an example as you think, even though it is probable the best example. 

 

http://www.malaysianbar.org.my/selected_judgements/lina_joy_v_majlis_agama_islam_wilayah_persekutuan_2_ors_2005_ca.html

 

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/ft-disaster-looms-amid-rising-religious-intolerance-in-malaysia-neighbours

 

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2010/rich-trzupek/malaysia-and-the-myth-of-islamic-tolerance/

 

am admitting we know very little about indonesia.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

You right Gromnir, I don't know why I thought the Philippines was predominantly  Muslim. I must have been getting it confused with Indonesia ?

 

 

I would think not. Indonesia has quite a few conflicts between muslims and religious minorities. Here is the latest from august 1th: 

 

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Moluccas,-fresh-fears-of-Muslim-Christian-clashes:-4-dead,-dozens-of-homes-ablaze-31781.html

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

Kidding right? Aravs/Muslims can't even live with just fellow Arabs/Muslims without mass murdering each other. And, you expect us to believe that Arab/Muslim countries would get along with a non Arab/Muslim population? Jewish populations in every single Arab/Muslim state have always been treated as trash at best and their numbers kept low. Same with christians.

 

Yes they can. And yes they have. Trought history. Learn a bit, you'd be surprised.

It's populat to use stereotypes and special/singular events and inflate them to over 9000, but that's not how the world works.

 

Irocnically, often in the past people have been more tolerant than today.

 

 

 

There are several Muslim countries where there are no conflicts. Like Malaysia, Indonesia and Philippines

 

But at the moment the Middle East is a particularly violent place, like

 

• New conflict in southern Lebanon
• Civil war in Syria
• ISIS fighting the Kurds, the Syrians and the currently elected Iraq government
• Ongoing extremist violence  in Yemen
• Gaza conflict

 

And this excludes the sectarian  violence in Libya and Egypt

 

In fact we don't often see this but Africa has less conflicts than the Middle East at the moment

 

philipines is overwhelming catholic.

 

malaysia... is maybe not as great an example as you think, even though it is probable the best example. 

 

http://www.malaysianbar.org.my/selected_judgements/lina_joy_v_majlis_agama_islam_wilayah_persekutuan_2_ors_2005_ca.html

 

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/ft-disaster-looms-amid-rising-religious-intolerance-in-malaysia-neighbours

 

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2010/rich-trzupek/malaysia-and-the-myth-of-islamic-tolerance/

 

am admitting we know very little about indonesia.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

You right Gromnir, I don't know why I thought the Philippines was predominantly  Muslim. I must have been getting it confused with Indonesia ?

 

 

I would think not. Indonesia has quite a few conflicts between muslims and religious minorities. Here is the latest from august 1th: 

 

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Moluccas,-fresh-fears-of-Muslim-Christian-clashes:-4-dead,-dozens-of-homes-ablaze-31781.html

 

 

Wow Jaded, nice going. You sure know how to destroy a persons perspective 

 

I was trying to put a positive spin on the view " all Muslim countries are wracked by violence"

 

So that leaves .....Malaysia....well one is better than none I suppose

 

But there are several, Saudi  Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, Jordan, Algeria and Morocco are some Muslim dominated countries that either have  no violence or limited sectarian violence. Anyone else is welcome to add to the list ?

[JadedWolf]

 

Wow Jaded, nice going. You sure know how to destroy a persons perspective 

 

I was trying to put a positive spin on the view " all Muslim countries are wracked by violence"

 

So that leaves .....Malaysia....well one is better than none I suppose

 

But there are several, Saudi  Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, Jordan, Algeria and Morocco are some Muslim dominated countries that either have  no violence or limited sectarian violence. Anyone else is welcome to add to the list ?

 

 

 

I hate to be that guy, but you do realize that for example in Saudi Arabia we're talking about a country where the practice of any other religion than Islam is forbidden, and where aposty is punishable by death?

 

Morocco is probably among the more harmless as far as Islamic countries go, but even there trying to convert people from Islam is forbidden and will result in being kicked out of the country or even being imprisoned.

 

Saudi Arabia is by no stretch of the imagination a tolerant country when it comes to religious minorities. Some of the others on your list are, but ONLY when compared to other Islamic countries. Your list sadly doesn't really instill much hope in me for religious minorities in countries ruled by Islamic parties.

 

The saddest example near us in Europe is Turkey, which is rapidly turning the clock backwards. Just the other day the deputy Prime Minister of Turkey stated that women should not laugh in public as it was not modest.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/10998133/Women-should-not-laugh-out-loud-in-public-Turkeys-deputy-prime-minister-says.html

 

If you ask me, the only hope for religious minorities in Islamic countries is secular government.

 

Edit: pruned the tree.

Edited August 7, 2014 by JadedWolf

[HoonDing]

Oman.

[TrashMan]

"A group of about 20 Palestinians, some of whom were scheduled to enter Israel for cancer treatment, had arrived at the crossing early on Tuesday, an AFP correspondent said."

 

But, this is illogical. Isreal is the devil. Why would they allow Palestinians to come to isreal for any kind of medical treatment if their goal is to kill every last Palestinian. Weird way to go about it. I seriously doubt Nazi Germany (who people just love to compare isreal to) had a habit of  habitually giving expensive medical treatment to jews or other 'undesrieables').

 

A different time and conditions.

 

Natzi germany was hiding it's extermianton camps from the world, and back then there was no such thing as UN and that much external pressure.

These days countreis have to make their actions look good. Everything is for "defense of freedom, democracy and all that jazz".

 

[TrashMan]

turns out that shockley were a bit o' a racist, but he were undeniably scary brilliant. his estimates for US casualties for an invasion o' japan were 1.4-4 million US GI casualties with 400-800k o' those being deaths. his prediction for japanese deaths were even more grim: as high as 10 MILLION japanese deaths.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I don't give a rats ass about his estimates of casualties during a full-scale US invasion.

 

There was no need for any furhter invasion. No need for any furhter war. The US wasn't saving anyone at that point anymore.