Humbleness as applied to development..

[Death Machine Miyagi]

 

Yeah. I've heard GRRM say that he likes writing 'grey' characters. And certainly SoIaF has quite a number of those, such as Jaime Lannister or Sandor Clegane or Stannis Baratheon. Characters who have their good qualities and their bad qualities, though the latter are often so bad they would automatically classify the character as a straight villain in almost any other series.

 

What he doesn't seem to acknowledge, however, is his very obvious fondness for characters so morally black they make Sauron look like a girl scout. Honestly, it sometimes seems like a good portion of his characters are in a 'biggest ****' competition with one another. Queen Cersei, Joffrey Baratheon, Viserys Targaryen, Roose Bolton, Ramsay Snow, Gregor Clegane, Vargo Hoat, Amory Lorch, Walder Frey and most of his family, pretty much every Bloody Mummer, just about the entire society of Slaver's Bay, probably a number of others I'm forgetting...these are characters who are often so over-the-top in their atrociousness that it strains credibility. I sometimes wonder if GRRM walks around thinking up the most horrible things he can possibly imagine a character doing just so he can have his villains do it and make the reader hate them more.

 

Unlike some others in this thread, I enjoy SoIaF a lot, but I have to say this part of it eventually does get rather tiring. It almost seems a cheap trick when you have to have your villains perpetually being as repulsive as possible to make the audience root for the more sympathetic characters. Dany's character arc, in particular, seems almost designed to make her more barbaric behavior look better in comparison by having her enemies be as completely unsympathetic as possible. 

 

I understand this viewpoint, but for me only real ***holes of the series are Joffrey and Ramsay. They are vile just for fun, while others usually have some reasons behind their deeds, be it greed, self-preservation, old grudges, lust for power, etc. Even Cersei gets some sympathy from me as she just happens to be bad combination of stupidity, pride, jealousy and paranoia, which in a way makes her not responsible for her actions. She's just lost in a game that's bigger than she can handle and aforementioned qualities make her incapable of realizing her true situation. I often feel bad for her even if her misfortunes are mostly her own fault.

 

 

 

SPOILERS UP TO STORM OF SWORDS AHOY!

 

 

The masters of Astapor make a sport of slathering three young boys in honey, blood and fish, respectively, and then setting a bear loose on them and wagering which one the bear will eat first. They train the Unsullied by having them raise a puppy as their only companion, then command them to strangle the puppy after a year has past. Their training also involves buying a baby from the slave market and killing it, after paying the owner (not the mother) a gold coin. When a slave rebels, they crucify him and flay his skin off in stripes, such that the open wounds are so infested with swarms of flies they appear like a black and writhing new layer of skin. The Yunkish and Meerenese have their own list of atrocities, but that'll do for Slaver's Bay.

 

Gregor Clegane cold-bloodedly held his brother's face in a hot brazier because his brother took a toy that he wasn't even interested in. He is heavily implied to have murdered his father, his sister, any number of servants and his first two wives. During the sack of King's Landing, he smashed a baby's head against a stone wall then raped the baby's mother with her son's blood and brains still on his hands before smashing her head in as well. When set loose to set the Riverlands ablaze, he gathers prisoners from the local villages and each day has one tortured to death under questioning while he watches, regardless of whether they're cooperative or not or what answers they give. When a woman tries to save her daughter from that fate by volunteering herself, he chooses the daughter for torture and death the next day in order to make sure the mother didn't hold anything back. When an innkeeper protests about his men making grabs at his 13 year old daughter because she isn't a whore, he tells her she is now, hands him a silver and then he and his men gang rape her until she's bloody and broken. After he and his thugs are done, he tells the father she wasn't worth the silver and demands part of his money back.

 

 

And on and on and on. You could make a similar list of atrocities for just about every name I cited, and as of recent Ramsay Snow is making a very impressive effort to surpass all of them. Some of them, like Cersei or Viserys, have freudian excuses of varying validity. Ser Gregor apparently suffers from migraine headaches, which I'm guessing wouldn't hold up well in court as justification for gang raping little girls.

 

Regardless, eventually the relentless atrocities of the worst characters get to be so over the top that it ceases to be horrifying and starts to become darkly comic.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Death Machine Miyagi

[Bryy]

Another big reason is the money is better spent elsewhere.

 

Although that is the reason why I think it should be easy to look past the money issue for developers who don't and sadly not as true as I would have thought.

*sigh*

 

1) Neither you nor I have the ability to see what they "should have" used the money for.

 

2) How do you think games get made if not via money? What do you think the Kickstarter was for?

Edited April 28, 2014 by Bryy

[PrimeJunta]

You know what's the hardest thing about making a game (or pretty much anything that involves more than one person, as a matter of fact?)

 

Project management. Everybody has ideas, there are scads of skilled writers, artists, musicians, modelers, scripters, testers, and programmers around, there are great tools, there are great marketing channels; you name it. But keeping that whole pack together and getting it to produce a coherent whole, now that's tough.

 

One reason I feel optimistic about P:E is that the guy in charge produced IWD2 in ten freaking months. That's some seriously badass project management mojo right there.

[Karkarov]

Just to throw this out there but cut content in most mediums was worthy of the cut.  Go watch 90% of movies that released with "deleted scenes".  You know why they deleted the scene when you see it cause most of the time it sucked, made no sense, or just didn't fit at all with the rest of the movie.  I imagine in games it is the same thing.  Except in a game the sucky scene that doesn't jive with the rest of the movie doesn't last 5 minutes it lasts an hour maybe two, and it can sour a otherwise great experience.  Mass Effect 3 ending anyone?

Not to mention budget/time constraints like others said.  Sometimes perfecting a area or bit of gameplay simply costs more money, time, or both than it is worth.

[Haerski]

 

SPOILERS UP TO STORM OF SWORDS AHOY!

 

 

The masters of Astapor make a sport of slathering three young boys in honey, blood and fish, respectively, and then setting a bear loose on them and wagering which one the bear will eat first. They train the Unsullied by having them raise a puppy as their only companion, then command them to strangle the puppy after a year has past. Their training also involves buying a baby from the slave market and killing it, after paying the owner (not the mother) a gold coin. When a slave rebels, they crucify him and flay his skin off in stripes, such that the open wounds are so infested with swarms of flies they appear like a black and writhing new layer of skin. The Yunkish and Meerenese have their own list of atrocities, but that'll do for Slaver's Bay.

 

Gregor Clegane cold-bloodedly held his brother's face in a hot brazier because his brother took a toy that he wasn't even interested in. He is heavily implied to have murdered his father, his sister, any number of servants and his first two wives. During the sack of King's Landing, he smashed a baby's head against a stone wall then raped the baby's mother with her son's blood and brains still on his hands before smashing her head in as well. When set loose to set the Riverlands ablaze, he gathers prisoners from the local villages and each day has one tortured to death under questioning while he watches, regardless of whether they're cooperative or not or what answers they give. When a woman tries to save her daughter from that fate by volunteering herself, he chooses the daughter for torture and death the next day in order to make sure the mother didn't hold anything back. When an innkeeper protests about his men making grabs at his 13 year old daughter because she isn't a whore, he tells her she is now, hands him a silver and then he and his men gang rape her until she's bloody and broken. After he and his thugs are done, he tells the father she wasn't worth the silver and demands part of his money back.

 

 

And on and on and on. You could make a similar list of atrocities for just about every name I cited, and as of recent Ramsay Snow is making a very impressive effort to surpass all of them. Some of them, like Cersei or Viserys, have freudian excuses of varying validity. Ser Gregor apparently suffers from migraine headaches, which I'm guessing wouldn't hold up well in court as justification for gang raping little girls.

 

Regardless, eventually the relentless atrocities of the worst characters get to be so over the top that it ceases to be horrifying and starts to become darkly comic.

 

I must admit I had forgotten some of The Mountain's best moments. I'll add him to my list, even if he is in constant pain and on top of that most of the time on drugs. I also agree that Slaver's Bay could have been better as more morally greyish, instead of society of outright ***holeness.

 

But still my point never was to revise list of everyones sins. They are all bad people of course, but still I find every one of them interesting and understandable as far as fictional characters in fictional world go and few wild cards like Joffrey, Ramsay and the Mountain add their own flavors and surprises to the story. I don't even think they are that far fetched: Give some mental patient suffering of constant pain, free hands to wreck havoc around countryside along with few words of encouragement and who knows what will happen? Better still give that one whole country to rule over.

 

In the end this all seems to boil down to where everyones personal limits of good taste go. I'm yet to find out, but for you ASoIaF has already crossed that line in some parts and I understand and respect that.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Haerski

[Sheikh]

About the book; the world is still full of all sorts of bad people and "****" today. They just have very very few oppurtunities to realise their bad deeds or evilness compared to times past. Song of ice and fire is set in a time where theres plenty of oppurtunity, thats why you see it.

Just to throw this out there but cut content in most mediums was worthy of the cut.  Go watch 90% of movies that released with "deleted scenes".  You know why they deleted the scene when you see it cause most of the time it sucked, made no sense, or just didn't fit at all with the rest of the movie.  I imagine in games it is the same thing.  Except in a game the sucky scene that doesn't jive with the rest of the movie doesn't last 5 minutes it lasts an hour maybe two, and it can sour a otherwise great experience.  Mass Effect 3 ending anyone?

Not to mention budget/time constraints like others said.  Sometimes perfecting a area or bit of gameplay simply costs more money, time, or both than it is worth.

Well then the developers just dont know what theyre doing. They did not have things planned out alright. Which is understandable though.

[tajerio]

Just to throw this out there but cut content in most mediums was worthy of the cut.  Go watch 90% of movies that released with "deleted scenes".  You know why they deleted the scene when you see it cause most of the time it sucked, made no sense, or just didn't fit at all with the rest of the movie.  I imagine in games it is the same thing.  Except in a game the sucky scene that doesn't jive with the rest of the movie doesn't last 5 minutes it lasts an hour maybe two, and it can sour a otherwise great experience.  Mass Effect 3 ending anyone?

 

Not to mention budget/time constraints like others said.  Sometimes perfecting a area or bit of gameplay simply costs more money, time, or both than it is worth.

Well then the developers just dont know what theyre doing. They did not have things planned out alright. Which is understandable though.

 

Nobody ever does know 100% of what's going to work and how well it'll fit into the time they have.  It's part of not being able to see the future.  Good planning will minimize the need for cuts, but that need is impossible to eliminate.

[Sheikh]

 

Just to throw this out there but cut content in most mediums was worthy of the cut.  Go watch 90% of movies that released with "deleted scenes".  You know why they deleted the scene when you see it cause most of the time it sucked, made no sense, or just didn't fit at all with the rest of the movie.  I imagine in games it is the same thing.  Except in a game the sucky scene that doesn't jive with the rest of the movie doesn't last 5 minutes it lasts an hour maybe two, and it can sour a otherwise great experience.  Mass Effect 3 ending anyone?

 

Not to mention budget/time constraints like others said.  Sometimes perfecting a area or bit of gameplay simply costs more money, time, or both than it is worth.

Well then the developers just dont know what theyre doing. They did not have things planned out alright. Which is understandable though.

 

Nobody ever does know 100% of what's going to work and how well it'll fit into the time they have.  It's part of not being able to see the future.  Good planning will minimize the need for cuts, but that need is impossible to eliminate.

 

If you set yourself restraints (such as of time) then that is true. That's also why I said it is understandable.

[Ffordesoon]

@Sheikh:

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you haven't done a lot of creative work before.

[Sheikh]

@Sheikh:

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you haven't done a lot of creative work before.

Correct. But I think the key is to balancing where it is creative expression and where it becomes work. If you get it right, you get the best of both worlds. Obsidian may not have such possiblity however, since they are a business. On the other hand kickstarter has given them the ability to tilt the balance alot more towards the first than before, which is great.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Sheikh

[Ffordesoon]

Correct.

Then - and I say this with all due respect - you do not know what you are talking about. You may think you do. You don't. You may think I'm being mean. I'm not. What you are doing right now is akin to lecturing an experienced spelunker without having ever entered a cave.

[Bryy]

 

@Sheikh:

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you haven't done a lot of creative work before.

Correct. But I think the key is to balancing where it is creative expression and where it becomes work. If you get it right, you get the best of both worlds. Obsidian may not have such possiblity however, since they are a business. On the other hand kickstarter has given them the ability to tilt the balance alot more towards the first than before, which is great.

 

All Kickstarter did was remove the publisher. And technically, we are the publisher still. So it removed the idea of a traditional publisher.

 

You don't have any idea of what you're talking about. You're acting like money and resources are exclusive. You're acting like people can't be creative when money is involved. You said the devs don't know what they are doing, when you also say you have no idea how creative work... works.

 

Things get cut, and you should be glad for that. Think back to school when you had to do multiple drafts of the same essay before it became perfect.... or any good at all. You think an episode of TV just appears out of thin air, fully formed without any bad content?

[PrimeJunta]

@Sheikh, I hate to break this to you, but creative expression is work. It can be immensely rewarding work, but it's definitely work, subject to all the constraints this sorry excuse of a capitalist economy imposes on us. So until the Revolution, things will be a little constrained.

[Sheikh]

@Sheikh, I hate to break this to you, but creative expression is work. It can be immensely rewarding work, but it's definitely work, subject to all the constraints this sorry excuse of a capitalist economy imposes on us. So until the Revolution, things will be a little constrained.

In practice it is. I was talking about what creative expression is in theory. All creative work involves some creative expression.

 

What I am saying is - the more there is, the better. And I think kickstarted has allowed developers to express their creativeness through developing games more than they might have been able to before.

 

You people have much more practical thinking than I would have figured.

Think back to school when you had to do multiple drafts of the same essay before it became perfect.... or any good at all.

And I NEVER did. And I got it all fine. If you consider essays and making maps for warcraft 3 creative work then I am somewhat familiar with it.

 

Also, I didn't say I have no idea how creative work works. I said I haven't done much of it.

[PrimeJunta]

And I NEVER did. And I got it all fine. If you consider essays and making maps for warcraft 3 creative work then I am somewhat familiar with it.

In that case I'm almost certain that your essays were never even close to as good as they could have been.

 

I'm lazy too and rarely wrote more than one draft of anything at school, because that was enough to get an A, most of the time. Since having to do such stuff in circumstances where it's seriously vetted, I've learned just how good those first drafts really are.

[Bryy]

You people have much more practical thinking than I would have figured.

I'm not sure if this is meant as an insult or not.

 

We're talking to you about practicality because:

 

1) Those are the terms you started this thread with. 

2) Games don't get made with wishes and nice thoughts. There is no "DO" button. Everything has an opportunic cost. 

 

 

And I NEVER did.

Okay.

 

Are you everybody?

Edited April 30, 2014 by Bryy

[Stun]

But can you may be have the best of both worlds at the same time, hypothetically. What about IWD2 story? Obviously a simple story as it is, but it was believable. It was also high fantasy at the same time. If you just made it more complex and grander, would you end up with something good? I dont fully understand what you BG fans see missing in IWD2 story so did I get it right? What would you change in it to make it a better story?

Well, Josh sorta answered that question in the OP's you tube link. Anyway I'll give my opinion:

 

First, I will say, I *liked* IWD2's story(s). Isair and Madae were potentially intriguing villians. And just like the first game, all the major dungeons had decent back stories. The story behind the ice temple was really good, even if the temple itself was a rather dull/repetitive dungeon experience. The story behind Dragon's eye was really good too (the eruption, the Yuanti, the time loop, etc.)

 

IWD2 could have had a much better storyline though. I wouldn't have changed anything, per se. Instead, I just would have...expanded it more. You can tell that Isair and Madae were meant to be far more "personable", but the devs simply didn't flesh them out.. Unfortunately the game manages to drop the ball each and every time they do show themselves to the Player. Every one of those cameos they do is like: "Oh hi!, we were just leaving. here, fight our minions!". Compare that with how BG2 handles Bodhi and Irenicus' multiple appearances.

 

Also, IWD2 had so many areas. But many were wasted with meaningless filler (river caves, fields of slaughter, the monastery, the underdark, etc), when the devs could have easily used them to better flesh out the main plot.

 

 

The PC is raised as an orphan in a library/monastery type setting under the protection of a powerful mage.

^Considering AD&D lore, this *alone* was a risky (and potentially unbelievable) opening scenario on the part of Bioware. What happens if you decide to play an elf? Well, In D&D, Elves don't reach adulthood until they're about 250 years old. Problem: Gorion is human. So Chances are if you're an adult elf, you're probably older than he is. Except that you can't be, because the time of troubles wasn't that long ago and he supposedly saved you from being a baby sacrifice to bhaal after the time of troubles. So by the start of the game, you're a 20-25 year old elf. Which is still a baby. You're like, 2 in human years.

 

Of course, this whole time-based inconsistency stuff in the BG games is made even more illogical in Throne of Bhaal when you meet a huge ancient Dragon who is also a child of bhaal, and who has a Son who's also a huge ancient dragon (if you're keeping count at home, that's a 2000+ year timeline discrepancy, since the time of troubles at the point had only happened, what, less than 25 years ago?)

Edited May 3, 2014 by Stun

[Namutree]

 

But can you may be have the best of both worlds at the same time, hypothetically. What about IWD2 story? Obviously a simple story as it is, but it was believable. It was also high fantasy at the same time. If you just made it more complex and grander, would you end up with something good? I dont fully understand what you BG fans see missing in IWD2 story so did I get it right? What would you change in it to make it a better story?

Well, Josh sorta answered that question in the OP's you tube link. Anyway I'll give my opinion:

 

First, I will say, I *liked* IWD2's story(s). Isair and Madae were potentially intriguing villians. And just like the first game, all the major dungeons had decent back stories. The story behind the ice temple was really good, even if the temple itself was a rather dull/repetitive dungeon experience. The story behind Dragon's eye was really good too (the eruption, the Yuanti, the time loop, etc.)

 

IWD2 could have had a much better storyline though. I wouldn't have changed anything, per se. Instead, I just would have...expanded it more. You can tell that Isair and Madae were meant to be far more "personable", but the devs simply didn't flesh them out.. Unfortunately the game manages to drop the ball each and every time they do show themselves to the Player. Every one of those cameos they do is like: "Oh hi!, we were just leaving. here, fight our minions!". Compare that with how BG2 handles Bodhi and Irenicus' multiple appearances.

 

Also, IWD2 had so many areas. But many were wasted with meaningless filler (river caves, fields of slaughter, the monastery, the underdark, etc), when the devs could have easily used them to better flesh out the main plot.

 

 

The PC is raised as an orphan in a library/monastery type setting under the protection of a powerful mage.

^Considering AD&D lore, this *alone* was a risky (and potentially unbelievable) opening scenario on the part of Bioware. What happens if you decide to play an elf? Well, In D&D, Elves don't reach adulthood until they're about 250 years old. Problem: Gorion is human. So Chances are if you're an adult elf, you're probably older than he is. Except that you can't be, because the time of troubles wasn't that long ago and he supposedly saved you from being a baby sacrifice to bhaal after the time of troubles. So by the start of the game, you're a 20-25 year old elf. Which is still a baby. You're like, 2 in human years.

 

Of course, this whole time-based inconsistency stuff in the BG games is made even more illogical in Throne of Bhaal when you meet a huge ancient Dragon who is also a child of bhaal, and who has a Son who's also a huge ancient dragon (if you're keeping count at home, that's a 2000+ year timeline discrepancy, since the time of troubles at the point had only happened, what, less than 25 years ago?)

 

From my understanding, Bhaal had many children BEFORE the time of troubles; so a 2000 year old dragon child of Bhaal is fine, but you are definitely right about the elf thing. I think I read in the player handbook that elves become adults at about 90, but maybe I'm wrong. Either way, an elf PC makes no sense.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

From my understanding, Bhaal had many children BEFORE the time of troubles; so a 2000 year old dragon child of Bhaal is fine, but you are definitely right about the elf thing. I think I read in the player handbook that elves become adults at about 90, but maybe I'm wrong. Either way, an elf PC makes no sense.

 

The dragon thing makes a lot less sense when you remember that Bhaal's entire plan relied upon his children dying to fuel his rebirth. If that's your plan, why would you breed with a species that lives thousands of years and makes mincemeat out of entire adventuring parties single-handed? Makes them dying on schedule rather frustrating, doesn't it?  

 

Lots of little, easily killable things makes a lot more sense. But then how would ToB have thrown in the obligatory gigantic boss battles? So whatever. We've got a dragon Bhaalspawn with an adult son. I don't think the writers of that expansion pack gave enough of a crap about the lore to care whether it made any sense, just so long as it provided a big battle. 

[Calmar]

To me, the Icewind Dale series is a great experience *because* it is so linear - all focus is put on its plot and atmosphere, like in an interactive book (th ebox and cut scenes even *are* books).

 

Baldur's Gate 1+2 are great games, in comparison, but the experience derives from the sense of freedom created by the numerous side-quests, not from the pretty straightforward and simple main story.

[Namutree]

 

From my understanding, Bhaal had many children BEFORE the time of troubles; so a 2000 year old dragon child of Bhaal is fine, but you are definitely right about the elf thing. I think I read in the player handbook that elves become adults at about 90, but maybe I'm wrong. Either way, an elf PC makes no sense.

 

The dragon thing makes a lot less sense when you remember that Bhaal's entire plan relied upon his children dying to fuel his rebirth. If that's your plan, why would you breed with a species that lives thousands of years and makes mincemeat out of entire adventuring parties single-handed? Makes them dying on schedule rather frustrating, doesn't it?  

 

Lots of little, easily killable things makes a lot more sense. But then how would ToB have thrown in the obligatory gigantic boss battles? So whatever. We've got a dragon Bhaalspawn with an adult son. I don't think the writers of that expansion pack gave enough of a crap about the lore to care whether it made any sense, just so long as it provided a big battle. 

 

Good point. Perhaps the dragon didn't have anything to do with his plan; maybe he saw a big half dragon and was like, "Come to Bhaal.". Then when he prophesized his demise he forgot about his dragon kid. That's the only explaination I could think of. It's not great, but I bet it's better than most fan-fiction.

[PrimeJunta]

To me, the Icewind Dale series is a great experience *because* it is so linear - all focus is put on its plot and atmosphere, like in an interactive book (th ebox and cut scenes even *are* books).

I agree re IWD 1. Unfortunately IWD 2 is just like IWD 1, only without much plot and atmosphere. Still slogging on through it but getting increasingly disillusioned. It's dull.

[Sarex]

I agree re IWD 1. Unfortunately IWD 2 is just like IWD 1, only without much plot and atmosphere. Still slogging on through it but getting increasingly disillusioned. It's dull.

 

IWD2 had atmosphere in spades, in fact it had the best out of all the IE games, the soundtrack too.

[Sheikh]

I'm not sure if this is meant as an insult or not.

Its not. More like a note to myself to not assume everyone else is like me when I dont know.

[Bryy]

 

I'm not sure if this is meant as an insult or not.

Its not. More like a note to myself to not assume everyone else is like me when I dont know.

 

Never assume you know what other people think.