Bottomless omnipresent stash in Eternity?

[Fluff]

I have no real problems with a bag of holding type of mechanic, but I'd also prefer it not be given to you straight away either.

Preferably this bottomless stash should be some type of valuable award/hidden treasure/etc that you obtain mid game. Late enough that it doesn't feel cheap and devalue loot, but early enough that it isn't pointless because you've basically already finished the game anyway.

[teknoman2]

I have no real problems with a bag of holding type of mechanic, but I'd also prefer it not be given to you straight away either.

Preferably this bottomless stash should be some type of valuable award/hidden treasure/etc that you obtain mid game. Late enough that it doesn't feel cheap and devalue loot, but early enough that it isn't pointless because you've basically already finished the game anyway.

and why should it not be a family heirloom?

[Tamerlane]

Pillars of Eternity opens up with the main character witnessing a supernatural event that thrusts you into the plot. Maybe the supernatural event is the creation of a portal to some strange plane of item storage?

 

(Except no, because that would be terrible. Abstracted game mechanics 4 life.)

Edited April 4, 2014 by Tamerlane

[Fluff]

 

I have no real problems with a bag of holding type of mechanic, but I'd also prefer it not be given to you straight away either.

Preferably this bottomless stash should be some type of valuable award/hidden treasure/etc that you obtain mid game. Late enough that it doesn't feel cheap and devalue loot, but early enough that it isn't pointless because you've basically already finished the game anyway.

and why should it not be a family heirloom?

 

 

I was just pulling a few random examples out of my ass, it could be for any given reason.

I just think that whatever that reason it shouldn't be at the very start of the game, because that otherwise all but defeats any purpose in even having inventory.

 

If there's a PoE2 starting with it is fine with me, assuming there's some form of continuity.. but I don't like when the first game in a series you start with god-tier abilities or items.. which I would consider a bottomless bag that can hold any and everything you ever get in the game to be just that.

[Tamerlane]

Uh... the purpose of the inventory vs the stash is to define what your character has access to in the field and in battle. And while the importance of that can vary from game to game based on a lot of parameters, some games - the Fire Emblem franchise comes to mind - have shown that you can have a good deal of meat in just that. You can complain that it's devalued, I guess, but you can't say it has no value. Or... well, yeah, you can, but then you'd be wrong, I guess.

 

Teleport vendor trash straight to my heart, Obsidian.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Tamerlane

[Fluff]

but then you'd be wrong, I guess.

 

I don't really see how an opinion can be wrong, since it's an opinion.

But, I will elaborate on why I feel that way.

 

If there is so much loot that we need a bottomless pit to store it all in I can only imagine one of two situations.

PoE is going to be an isometric skyrim where there's thousands of trash pieces of loot scattered across the world to warrant such a feature, which I personally.. don't like.

or

There's going to be tons of important loot that.. you can't use because it's stuck away in your stash that you can't access during battle, which I personally.. don't like.

 

Unless each party member can only hold like.. 5 things, I don't see where a situation is going to stand that I'm going to need to strategically need to plan what they carry with them to such a degree, which again.. I wouldn't like. I honestly don't see the complaints with IE games in this area, I've never played through Baldur's gate for example and had a situation where I had 6 party members full with items and me going "Well damn, I can't pick up this common 1h sword that every mob drops.. this games loot system sucks"

 

 

Either way, I can't think of a situation where I personally would enjoy the reason behind why we need an infinite loot bag. Again though, opinion.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Fluff

[Tamerlane]

"The earth is completely engulfed in flames." is an incorrect statement, not an unprovable opinion. We know this for many reasons; not the least of which is the fact that we aren't all also on fire right now. "The stash mechanic necessarily makes individual character inventories irrelevant." is an incorrect statement as well. We knows this because there already exist games with this mechanic and character inventories are, to varying degrees, still relevant in them. "Is it actually good and fun?" is where the opinion comes in, here.

 

And hell, if whisking loot off to a camp stash is some grand magical power, so is carrying three halberds, two suits of chainmail, 120 arrows, a greatsword, and fifty thousand gold coins, all without being slowed down even a hair. Like I said earlier, either way involves blatantly obvious unrealistic abstractions for the sake of convenience.

[Osvir]

I don't mind the bottomlessness of the stash.

But some thoughts: I'd like to either be able to modify (custom-make) a mode which creates a limited stash, or, have a limited stash in the harder difficulty tiers.

[Silent Winter]

I don't mind the bottomlessness of the stash.

 

But some thoughts: I'd like to either be able to modify (custom-make) a mode which creates a limited stash, or, have a limited stash in the harder difficulty tiers.

There's bound to be something like this in the early modding days (assuming it's not just impossible in-engine).

...then again - you'd need to be able to access that stash to remove cr*p item A and replace with shiny item B on the fly...

 

I don't mind the bottomless stash at all - I just fear it will add to my hoarding

[Fluff]

Your example makes no sense because they are from entirely different premises. Of course saying the earth is engulfed in flames isn't an opinion.

If something makes a feature worthless is though, and your example does nothing for me because I happen to think Fire Emblem is a **** game, so backing up a feature "working" with a feature supposedly working that I don't like in a game that I don't like does nothing...because it is only opinion that it works in that game.

 

The same way some people think quest directions don't work, that loot weight systems don't work, that hell basically the entire cRPG genre "doesn't work". It's their opinion, I don't agree with it, but I don't go around yelling at them that they are wrong "because this game does it."

 

But this is all really offtopic.. I didn't come here to argue with someone on how they want to define opinion.

Back to my point.

 

either way involves blatantly obvious unrealistic abstractions for the sake of convenience.

 

I never said anything about anything be realistic or not, so I don't know why you are even using this argument.

I enjoy degrees of realism, but it's stupid to argue in a fantasy game with MAGIC.

 

All I said is I don't think such a feature should be given to the player the second they start the game, an infinite bag is a powerful item that should have some level of incentive behind it that makes you feel like you are actually progressing throughout your adventure, which is why I said it should be given (somewhere around) mid-game so that it's still given early enough to be useful but not so early that inventory is never even a possible concern. 

I like character growth, not having these amazing abilities or items at my disposal from square one.

[Elerond]

IE games already had bottomless stash for money, so making that stash also cover items that are picked up only to sell them for money isn't breaking my suspension of disbelief any more than carrying several tons forth of gold. Of course there is probability that system can be abused in such way that abuse will break my suspension of disbelief, but abusing inventory systems has been part of almost all games that have inventory system, so I would say it will not be problem for me.

[Tamerlane]

Your example makes no sense because they are from entirely different premises. Of course saying the earth is engulfed in flames isn't an opinion.

If something makes a feature worthless is though, and your example does nothing for me because I happen to think Fire Emblem is a **** game, so backing up a feature "working" with a feature supposedly working that I don't like in a game that I don't like does nothing...because it is only opinion that it works in that game.

 

The same way some people think quest directions don't work, that loot weight systems don't work, that hell basically the entire cRPG genre "doesn't work". It's their opinion, I don't agree with it, but I don't go around yelling at them that they are wrong "because this game does it."

 

But this is all really offtopic.. I didn't come here to argue with someone on how they want to define opinion.

Back to my point.

I... think you just misspoke earlier, is all. You said the "stash system" made inventories do nothing (or more specifically, it "all but defeats any purpose in even having inventory"). Examples exist of similar systems in which inventories play a role in the game. They are things people work with and around. They are things people can fight with and balance and labour over. Now, an opinion may be that this is dumb and bad and ungood and boring, and that's totally cool. But they have points. They serve purposes. They exist and they do things and they cause you to do things with them. And I don't think "opinion" stretches far enough to cover "this thing does not exist" in this case, even if it does cover "this thing is lame and I couldn't care less about it" or some variation on that.

 

Or perhaps that fits inside "all but" and it's a matter of my interpretation not lining up with your intentions.  Either way.

I never said anything about anything be realistic or not, so I don't know why you are even using this argument.

I enjoy degrees of realism, but it's stupid to argue in a fantasy game with MAGIC.

 

All I said is I don't think such a feature should be given to the player the second they start the game, an infinite bag is a powerful item that should have some level of incentive behind it that makes you feel like you are actually progressing throughout your adventure, which is why I said it should be given (somewhere around) mid-game so that it's still given early enough to be useful but not so early that inventory is never even a possible concern. 

I like character growth, not having these amazing abilities or items at my disposal from square one.

Okay, follow me here:

 

You object to it (at least partially) on the grounds that whisking away any old thing you find to a boundless, semi-untouchable space is A Pretty Big Deal and, while that's not necessarily bad, it should at least only be available to the party when they themselves are Pretty Big Deals. And yet, it's no more A Big Deal than sticking three suits of armour, a half-dozen weapons, and a coin purse the size of a car into an invisible backpack while still being able to dance on the head of a pin, and that's exactly how the IE games handled it. Now, you never said that the traditional (and fairly common for non-IE games, too) way handling inventory was your ideal; I get that. But if a semi-abstracted inventory is too fantastical for the early game, what exactly is acceptable?

Edited April 4, 2014 by Tamerlane

[Fluff]

Okay, follow me here:

I like character growth, not having these amazing abilities or items at my disposal from square one.

 

You object to it (at least partially) on the grounds that whisking away any old thing you find to a boundless, semi-untouchable space is A Pretty Big Deal and, while that's not necessarily bad, it should at least only be available to the party when they themselves are Pretty Big Deals. And yet, it's no more A Big Deal than sticking three suits of armour, a half-dozen weapons, and a coin purse the size of a car into an invisible backpack while still being able to dance on the head of a pin, and that's exactly how the IE games handled it. Now, you never said that the traditional (and fairly common for non-IE games, too) way handling inventory was your ideal; I get that. But if a semi-abstracted inventory is too fantastical for the early game, what exactly is acceptable?

 

I never said the system is perfect, because you're right.. it isn't.

 

Although as many will be quick to point out, you have to leave some room nonsensical mechanics less you want to make a game devoid of any enjoyment (for most)

I happen to love tetris-styled loot bags with believable (or at least more so than other systems) amounts of space and penalizing weight systems. I'm also a masochistic gamer who loves cranking games up to their hardest difficulty and playing perma-death if possible though, and I understand that not everyone enjoys that.. in fact most don't.

 

I'm fine with the game giving an unlimited loot container of sorts.. I just think it's something that should be earned is all. I can go on and on about specifics of it all day, but the plain short and simple version is I just don't like such meaningful freebies at the start of the game.

 

and honestly.. unless PoE does something off the wall with loot I don't see how it would even affect early game-play, all it would do is make you feel like you're progressing when you get it later. Lets use Baldur's Gate for the example, since as we all know PoE is IE inspired.

 

You start the game with your one character, you have 16 inventory slots, plus 3 quick item, 3 quiver, and 3 weapon plus gold has it's own location. You get your option of a first companion nearly instantly, and 2 others right after, followed by another 2, and so on. Not once through a play through in early game was there ever even enough loot to fill up every characters inventory, and with most of it just being trash to sell and towns frequent it was never an issue once.

 

Assuming PoE plays anything like that.. this infinite storage wont even become a benefit until later into the game anyway. So by making it something you earn you feel progression within this world by having your story crafted and within this story you earn this amazing useful item, instead of making your character and *bam magical infinite storage*

[teknoman2]

in the gothic series, you could carry on you every piece of junk you colected... it was not realistic, but it was convenient. same thing for the kotor games. did it make these games any less fun to play? here, to keep things more tactical, they allow you to keep a limited amount of useable items and the rest are magically sent to camp for convenience. the best of both worlds

[Lephys]

Fluff, I think what Tamerlane is saying to you is that the only thing having a non-finite "stash" is taking away is the necessity to decide what to take and what to leave whenever you come upon more loot than you can carry in a given outing (within the confines of the limited portion of the inventory system). Which, yes, it does. But, that's not the sole purpose of an inventory.

 

In PoE, that limited inventory still exists, for each and every character. If Bob the Bard (I know there aren't bards... I just like alliteration in my example characters, is all) isn't carrying another Potion of Protection (okay, I like it in all my example names), he isn't going to be using one anytime soon. Those 1,000 such potions in your Infinite Stash don't mean much if you can't use them.

 

Also, I'd just like to point out that the "if there's so much loot that we can't carry everything we come across with a finite inventory, then the game must be Skyrim" is false; all it takes is ONE extra, weighty/large/valuable item in each trip between loot-removal locations (merchants, or a physical stash at your stronghold or in town or something) to warrant not much more than an extra trip to come back and pick that up, solely because you couldn't carry it at the time. Just because there may only be a few things of value you'd need to come back for, instead of 1,000, doesn't mean the extra trip is any more fun or engaging or purposeful.

 

Or there's the oft-used alternative: Encumbrance. "We won't stop you from taking that last shield you found. We're just going to make it REALLLLLY annoying to actually get anywhere afterwards." Which is also the opposite of fun (and pretty much doesn't significantly affect any aspect of gameplay at all, because you could always just chunk something back down when you enter combat so you're not slowed during combat, OR simply wait 'til you've cleared out the whole area before looting everything and trudging sluggishly back home.)

 

Honestly, the most significant aspect of inventory limitation is that you can't access more than a certain amount of stuff at a time. That being said, I would actually recommend that they change it so that the Stash is only accessible in town, instead of also at all rest spots. I mean, I don't know exactly how spaced out/numerous rest spots will be, but they've gotta exist frequently enough for you to not die between them (for good design, anyway). So, the whole "you can't access this" penalty of the stash is a bit diminished if you can simply hike 3 minutes back to a campsite and just swap out anything you'd like to. Or, however far away it is, if there are 5 campsites throughout a 2-hour leg of dungeoneering, then you get 5 opportunities to access your stash (for example). That's the point I'm trying to make. The general frequency with which it will be accessible does quite diminish the whole point of its inaccessibility, methinks.

 

But, who knows. The devs know all about the game's design, and I don't. I'm sure they're thinking about that. They didn't just draw this decision out of a hat, and are somehow forced to roll with it now and never tweak it.

 

The fact remains that having 5 valuable things in every cave (example), and arbitrarily being forced to choose only 4 of them (does that enchanted shield disintegrate the second I leave the cave? Even though this cave is like 5 hours from my stronghold and I could just come right back, or send riders on horseback to retrieve it?) isn't fun. And the process of manually returning to make the trip isn't fun, either. In certain situations, yeah, it makes total sense and is significant to gameplay. If you sneak through a merchant's camp and steal some stuff while you're there, but can only carry so much, then you'd have to choose what to take, because, by the time you come back, they'd probably have broken camp and taken the rest of the stuff with them. But, if you slaughter everyone that would move any of the stuff, then you should be able to take whatever you want at that point. There's no point in being required to unimpededly return and collect the remainder of valuable goods in a second trip, as the only outcome is "you return and collect the rest of the goods."

[rjshae]

I don't mind the bottomlessness of the stash.

 

But some thoughts: I'd like to either be able to modify (custom-make) a mode which creates a limited stash, or, have a limited stash in the harder difficulty tiers.

 

That might be an option for Expert mode. I think it would only add to the difficulty if the loot you don't add to the stash were to disappear over time. Otherwise it boils down to whether you want to make a bunch of extra trips back and forth to collect the remaining loot.

[Osvir]

 

I don't mind the bottomlessness of the stash.

 

But some thoughts: I'd like to either be able to modify (custom-make) a mode which creates a limited stash, or, have a limited stash in the harder difficulty tiers.

 

That might be an option for Expert mode. I think it would only add to the difficulty if the loot you don't add to the stash were to disappear over time. Otherwise it boils down to whether you want to make a bunch of extra trips back and forth to collect the remaining loot.

Interesting!! Timed loot in the stash. One could reason that bandits comes and steals your loot, or some greedy soul demons. This might be more difficult to modify in though, as I believe the code would first and foremost need to support it.

 

What would happen?

- You stash up 10 items, let's say that's the max amount on Expert as well. You can only carry 5 of those items (apart from the gear and items you are already carrying). In an attempt to do the whole back-and-forth selling remaining loot, the 5 items left in the stash disappears. So basically you wouldn't be able to do a back-and-forth thing.

 

Or the loot could be timed in another fashion, you can drop items into the Stash, as many as you want in fact, but the next time you go to the Stash, everything but the things you pick up disappears.

 

Example:

1. I get some loot that I won't need right now, or stuff I want to pawn. 5 items that I stash.

2a. I adventure some more, return, stash some items. If I don't choose to pick any of the 5 items up, they disappear.

2b. I adventure some more, return, stash some items. I pick up 2 items and the 3 others disappear. The newly stashed items get the same treatment (next time I return).

 

I don't know how it would actually work in practice though, but it sounds as if it would add a new layer of strategy (albeit, stash strategy).

 

The apparent issue then is that I could exploit it by disregarding the stash entirely and do millions of back-and-forth deals everytime my inventory is full~ but people who would do that probably suffers from hardcore OCD.

 

Which brings up another question... does dropped items on the ground stay there even if I leave it there and return 5 hours later?

[Helz]

 

The apparent issue then is that I could exploit it by disregarding the stash entirely and do millions of back-and-forth deals everytime my inventory is full~ but people who would do that probably suffers from hardcore OCD.

 

 

This is exactly what the unlimited stash mechanic is supposed to prevent.  Tedious trips back and forth to a merchant to clear your inventory.  I guess I shouldn't be surprised that people will actually miss that, but wow.  

 

It makes plenty of sense to me anyway, even without a bag of holding.   Its not like you'd carry all of your extra crap into a dungeon with you, you'd leave everything but the gear you need at your base camp.  Like soldiers who march with 100lbs worth of gear, but only carry ~35lbs in combat. 

[Osvir]

@Helz: This is pretty much what I said: "I have an idea! Maybe this could work? Oh, wait... it doesn't get rid of the problem". Sorry, the whole "but wow"-thing bothers me, it reeks of ignorance.

 

These are thoughts/ideas/analyzing for a harder difficulty tier. Expert Mode or beyond that. In a previous post I stated that I don't mind an unlimited stash at all, but I would like to see it being handled differently on a harder difficulty.. or have options to make it harder on a harder difficulty.

Why?

An unlimited stash is a benefit, it makes it easier to accumulate riches. And with riches you get better gear, items and general stuff. Bribe your way through difficult encounters and so on. There is no real catch with having an unlimited stash from a gameplay perspective. You don't have to run back and forth, you can hoard everything you find without any problems and keep it for yourself or do whatever you want with it.

However, an unlimited stash does make everything easier for you. Which means there is potential to make a hard difficulty even harder by making the stash limited instead.

Unlimited = Makes life easier
Limited = Makes life harder

 

Makes sense?

I want a limited stash not because I want to go back-and-forth, but because I want a harder experience on the hardest difficulty.

[Infinitron]

What I think everybody is missing about the concept of the unlimited stash is that it allows the designers to ~balance~ the game around the assumption that players will pick up everything.

 

In the Infinity Engine games, different types of players had wildly different "looting strategies", and it was hard to anticipate how much cash a player would have at any given point in the game.

[Osvir]

@Infinitron: Well... there's that too of course a valid point.

[rjshae]

What I think everybody is missing about the concept of the unlimited stash is that it allows the designers to ~balance~ the game around the assumption that players will pick up everything.

 

In the Infinity Engine games, different types of players had wildly different "looting strategies", and it was hard to anticipate how much cash a player would have at any given point in the game.

 

We haven't missed this--it's been discussed before. But it is also true of games where there isn't infinite stash; the designers will still need to assume that players will take the time to vacuum up everything.

[cornishr]

Good old bag of holding - probably the most useful magical item of them all.

 

Although flying carpets are pretty good i suppose.

[Tamerlane]

@Helz: This is pretty much what I said: "I have an idea! Maybe this could work? Oh, wait... it doesn't get rid of the problem". Sorry, the whole "but wow"-thing bothers me, it reeks of ignorance.

 

These are thoughts/ideas/analyzing for a harder difficulty tier. Expert Mode or beyond that. In a previous post I stated that I don't mind an unlimited stash at all, but I would like to see it being handled differently on a harder difficulty.. or have options to make it harder on a harder difficulty.

 

Why?

 

An unlimited stash is a benefit, it makes it easier to accumulate riches. And with riches you get better gear, items and general stuff. Bribe your way through difficult encounters and so on. There is no real catch with having an unlimited stash from a gameplay perspective. You don't have to run back and forth, you can hoard everything you find without any problems and keep it for yourself or do whatever you want with it.

 

However, an unlimited stash does make everything easier for you. Which means there is potential to make a hard difficulty even harder by making the stash limited instead.

 

Unlimited = Makes life easier

Limited = Makes life harder

 

Makes sense?

 

I want a limited stash not because I want to go back-and-forth, but because I want a harder experience on the hardest difficulty.

An "unlimited stash" also implies (though it does not necessitate) a more limited individual inventory compared to the IE games. So even as it makes one thing easier, another will probably/hopefully become harder.

[ravenshrike]

 

 

I don't mind the bottomlessness of the stash.

 

But some thoughts: I'd like to either be able to modify (custom-make) a mode which creates a limited stash, or, have a limited stash in the harder difficulty tiers.

 

That might be an option for Expert mode. I think it would only add to the difficulty if the loot you don't add to the stash were to disappear over time. Otherwise it boils down to whether you want to make a bunch of extra trips back and forth to collect the remaining loot.

Interesting!! Timed loot in the stash. One could reason that bandits comes and steals your loot, or some greedy soul demons. This might be more difficult to modify in though, as I believe the code would first and foremost need to support it.

 

What would happen?

- You stash up 10 items, let's say that's the max amount on Expert as well. You can only carry 5 of those items (apart from the gear and items you are already carrying). In an attempt to do the whole back-and-forth selling remaining loot, the 5 items left in the stash disappears. So basically you wouldn't be able to do a back-and-forth thing.

 

Or the loot could be timed in another fashion, you can drop items into the Stash, as many as you want in fact, but the next time you go to the Stash, everything but the things you pick up disappears.

 

Example:

1. I get some loot that I won't need right now, or stuff I want to pawn. 5 items that I stash.

2a. I adventure some more, return, stash some items. If I don't choose to pick any of the 5 items up, they disappear.

2b. I adventure some more, return, stash some items. I pick up 2 items and the 3 others disappear. The newly stashed items get the same treatment (next time I return).

 

I don't know how it would actually work in practice though, but it sounds as if it would add a new layer of strategy (albeit, stash strategy).

 

The apparent issue then is that I could exploit it by disregarding the stash entirely and do millions of back-and-forth deals everytime my inventory is full~ but people who would do that probably suffers from hardcore OCD.

 

Which brings up another question... does dropped items on the ground stay there even if I leave it there and return 5 hours later?

 

Finally a good use for the track ability, hunting those **** down who stole your secret stash and subsequently torturing them to death.