Ukraine Redux

[Malcador]

http://www.examiner.com/article/russian-spetsnaz-arrested-ukraine

 

Might be BS, though.

[213374U]

Putin's justification for the land grab are hilarious. Guess he'd be fine if Poland and Germany tag-teamed Kaliningrad on the basis of it being "historically German." All you have to do is invade (or, in Putinian newspeak has it, "recognize local self defence units"), set up a separatist referendum, and consistently play dumb. Presto, you can make a landgrab unmolested, as long as you're a big enough bully.

 

What happened to Königsberg is disgrace—still, it's Russians living there now, because the then-resident Germans either fled before the Red Army encircled the city, or were expelled or outright killed after it surrendered. The only thing you'd raise if you suggested that a referendum should be held on whether Kaliningrad is to rejoin Germany as East Prussia, is a few eyebrows.

 

A more pertinent example, perhaps, would be South Sakhalin, though even there Russification mostly removed the presence of Japanese and Ainu ethnic groups.

 

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/russian-spetsnaz-arrested-ukraine

 

Might be BS, though.

 

Err... I'm inclined to believe it, but the way it's presented in the article is a bit misleading. It's two different events:

 

- the arrest of a Russian national close to Crimea that has been identified as a member of GRU on March 14

- the arrest of a bunch of unidentified gunmen in possession of explosives and "special technical means" in south east Ukraine on March 16

 

The men in the second group haven't been identified (or at least no info is given) and could be private contractors, Ukrainian "self defence" types, or more Russian operators. The guy arrested on March 14 apparently had some fake IDs on him, but the way the SSU press release is worded, it's unclear whether the "document" that identified him as a GRU operative was found on the man himself.

 

Another bit of the article that left me scratching my head was this:

 

 

It also has to be considered that Spetsnaz operatives were present on the ground during the Maidan protests in Kiev and likely on both sides of it. It is very possible that these men were communicating false orders to police as Ukrainian authority and were imbedded among protestors to 'rabble rouse' and even shoot back at the police.

 

Is there any evidence for this that I've missed or it's just the author suggesting possibilities?

Edited March 18, 2014 by 213374U

[Mor]

 

Your post are just one big (good written) wank fest,

Well now, usually when someone uses that sort of description it is because they feel they're losing an argument and are rather baffled as to why, since they cannot actually be wrong.

 

No I am tiered of arguing ad nauseam with your logic and your apologizing for Russia actions, finding the ordeal as a pointless exercise in futility . I have nothing to add on this point to what I already said to you. So we will have to agree to disagree, and hopefully you got something from the two preceding context post. ( btw, I find it amusing that I could make a better case for some of your arguments concerning Crimea separatism, though don't feel encouraged, the bottom line is still the same )

 

Here, let me help:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4049949.stm

..

Thank you toilet4u. Like I said before your expert opinion, based on googling scholarship, devote of context and with barely tangible correlation to the main topic in some colossal never ending argument that usually devolve into huge quote walls that are devote of meaning and only serve as for some petty trying to prove/win BS, are as always unappreciated. Edited March 18, 2014 by Mor

[213374U]

Well, at least you are finally acknowledging your betters, Mor-on.

 

 

 

[Elerond]

And now it seems that some idiots are decided to escalate things and change nature of this conflict from political to armed.

 

Question is who these idiot were, Russian's soldiers, "Crimea's self defense" forces or maybe Ukraine itself trying to get western countries give higher sanctions for Russia .

[Mor]

 

propaganda(which is very similar concept to PR)

They are conceptually one and the same, anyone involved in 'public relations' is involved in 'propaganda' and vice versa, the only real difference is how the label is perceived. Go introduce yourself to Edward Bernays.

 

I agree to an extent, which is why I said very similar concepts. However, PR is most commonly associated with companies who wish to promote a certain image and while it might put a spin on things in certain situation it usually grounded in solid basis, while Propaganda is usually negatively associated with state propaganda of ww2 times, and as not necessarily limited to the truth.

 

So for example I have no problem to say that today Germany state or foreign affairs department is engaged in PR, but I would call Russian equivalent propaganda, to differentiate their practice i.e. its one things to give statements to the media and another to control the media and dictate what they can't say, censoring any other independent opinion that says something else.

 

Or if you wish here Obsidian forums engaged in PR by promoting its product through updates etc, not by censoring anyone who disagree or don't like it.

 

 

Btw, isn't the quality of life in Ukraine is better then in Russia?

This is of course a pretty subjective thing and dependent on where in which nation you lived. However, if you mean in the manner that most westerners do when they consider the question: the per capita GDP...

 

Please don't say westerners, every time it or the east/west stuff mentioned in this thread, I get a knee jerk reaction due to the demagogic nature of arguments brought here in this respect (specifically the appeal to emotion through ignorance, but also advocating immediate, violent action in times of crisis ).

 

As for here, obviously what 'quality of life' means to various people is subjective, which is why comparison between countries are usually based on independent organization ranking. Such ranking are based on several factors e.g. education, life expectancy and GDP, but can go as far as factoring quality of infrastructure ( the later very much appeal to me because I HATE traffic jams! though admittedly its more about economic development than that )

Edited March 18, 2014 by Mor

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Like everything else in the world, I'm sure it's somehow the fault of the US.

[Sarex]

Like everything else in the world, I'm sure it's somehow the fault of the US.

 

What goes around, comes around.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Sarex

[Mor]

And now it seems that some idiots are decided to escalate things and change nature of this conflict from political to armed.

 

Question is who these idiot were, Russian's soldiers, "Crimea's self defense" forces or maybe Ukraine itself trying to get western countries give higher sanctions for Russiap.

Unless you refer to something new. I'll have to take an issue with the part I bolded. Ukraine has continuously tried to defuse the situation and shown utmost restraint to the escalation. So placing them in the same sentence with Russia is just buffling to me I mean even if you are one of those who still think that the highly organized/coordinated/outfied anti-Ukraine "local defense" forces were not Russian forces or taking point and outfield by Russian forces, I think that Russia reaction escalating the Ukrainian crisis with its mobilization/rhetoric and placing soldier inside of another sovereign country defacto taking over it, is enough to separate the two. Edited March 18, 2014 by Mor

[Elerond]

 

And now it seems that some idiots are decided to escalate things and change nature of this conflict from political to armed.

 

Question is who these idiot were, Russian's soldiers, "Crimea's self defense" forces or maybe Ukraine itself trying to get western countries give higher sanctions for Russiap.

Unless you refer to something new. I'll have to take an issue with the part I bolded. Ukraine has continuously tried to defuse the situation and shown utmost restraint to the escalation. So placing them in the same sentence with Russia is just buffling to me I mean even if you are one of those who still think that the highly organized/coordinated/outfied anti-Ukraine "local defense" forces were not Russian forces or taking point and outfield by Russian forces, I think that Russia reaction escalating the Ukrainian crisis with its mobilization/rhetoric and placing soldier inside of another sovereign country defacto taking over it, is enough to separate the two.

 

 

There was news that Ukraine's military base in Crimea was stormed and one Ukraine's soldier was shot dead during that raid.

 

Attackers are unknown currently, but there is really only three possibilities, Russian's did it, so called Crimea's self defense forces did it or Ukraine's troop did it themselves (which is of course very unlikely, but probably something that Russian's media could try spin around as truth, giving that reason what I earlier mentioned)

 

EDIT:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/18/ukraine-crisis-putin-plan-crimea-annex-speech-russia-live

 

My prediction failed, Russian media's story is that dead soldier was not Ukraine's soldier, but member of "self defense" forces that was killed by sniper.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Elerond

[obyknven]

Moar inspired by Crimea pics from Internets

 
Liberator is coming, prepare your... everything

 

 

Emperator, Sunfaced, Mr.  Dragon and other names of our ruler.

Putin's speech
http://youtu.be/ZXAugWfVb0E

 

Yeah, we feel this vibration of universe - war is coming.

[Fighter]

Oby you are just strange...

[Cultist]

Oby you are just strange...

Ignore is your friend. One click and helluva less retardation in the thread.

[Oerwinde]

Putin's justification for the land grab are hilarious. Guess he'd be fine if Poland and Germany tag-teamed Kaliningrad on the basis of it being "historically German." All you have to do is invade (or, in Putinian newspeak has it, "recognize local self defence units"), set up a separatist referendum, and consistently play dumb. Presto, you can make a landgrab unmolested, as long as you're a big enough bully.

If Kaliningrad was populated mostly by germans, was 95% german speaking, and had previously attempted to break away only to have their aspirations crushed by the Russian government, then more or less welcomed the Germans with open arms,yeah, thays about right.

[Malcador]

Oby you are just strange...

 

Yep.  For one, Putin's just a SM captain ? (it's not the Big E in that art work ).

[213374U]

Oby you are just strange...

 

Yep.  For one, Putin's just a SM captain ? (it's not the Big E in that art work ).

 

Because the Emperor of Soviet Russia is clearly Lenin, preserved within his sarcophagus, neither dead nor truly alive, for all of eternity:

 

[Malcador]

And his chosen sons did fight amongst themselves, with one leading to a reign of darkness.

[obyknven]

 

There was news that Ukraine's military base in Crimea was stormed and one Ukraine's soldier was shot dead during that raid.

 

Attackers are unknown currently, but there is really only three possibilities, Russian's did it, so called Crimea's self defense forces did it or Ukraine's troop did it themselves (which is of course very unlikely, but probably something that Russian's media could try spin around as truth, giving that reason what I earlier mentioned)

 

EDIT:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/18/ukraine-crisis-putin-plan-crimea-annex-speech-russia-live

 

My prediction failed, Russian media's story is that dead soldier was not Ukraine's soldier, but member of "self defense" forces that was killed by sniper.

 

Insider info without proofs.

 

 

На самом деле всё намного проще, - снайпер отработал по вышке охранного периметра украинской части, причем с тыла, затем обстрелял местных. Местная самооборона рванула разбираться, смело, но безграмотно. Очень быстро подтянулись ВЛ, снайпера "сняли", в/ч от греха выпотрошили, разогнав укровояк пинками, караул заперли в их же караулке для разбора. Неприятный итог два двухсотых, два трехсотых. Укровоякам урок. Сейчас эта информация оперативно доводится до всех особоупоротых по всем возможным каналам. Их тупо слили.Не просто слили. Только что разговаривал с Симферополем. Как мне сказали, с первых шагов было понятно, что это провокация. Часть не является боевой, и захватывать ее не было никакого смысла - там сидят чисто картографы (играют в "морской бой"), Ворота части можно было просто закрутить на проволоку и в списке поставить галочку, что она захвачена. А провокация с выстрелами - вообще непонятная - если уж провоцировать, то нужно было выбирать часть посущественнее.

Sniper shot at ukrainian base (kill officer), after this he shot Crimean selfdefence (militia) also.  Very fast arrived Polite people ( green masked troopers ) and  kill sniper, after this they search Ukrainian base and territories around .  Result  - one ukrainian officer is killed, one crimean selfdefence member is  killed and two  wounded. Investigation begin (police, detectives etc) - but this is clear - Ukrainian soldiers has been betrayed by own government - this is provocation. At this base nothing interesting, just bunch of mapmakers, russians have no reason for sturm such pathetic target and kill unarmed officer.

 

[obyknven]

And his chosen sons did fight amongst themselves, with one leading to a reign of darkness.

You too serious. This pic from public "Putin vs Reptiloids" they are not WH40K experts, they just trolls make poster where their beloved warlord lead Russian army to war against aliens from Niburu.

http://vk.com/advicereptiloid

[obyknven]

By other info sniper not killed and arrested alive. He is 17 old guy from Western Ukraine, Lviv, he shot at Ukrainian soldiers and Crimean selfdefence. 

[obyknven]

RT show info about this.

 

http://rt.com/news/crimea-shooting-military-center-646/

 

Two snipers, one run (or killed), other detained (probably right-wing extremist).

[Gorgon]

One thing I've learned about RT from the Ukraine crisis is that it's like  the other Fox News. Their attempts at keeping a straight face while always sticking to the script is laughable. 

 

Still, Ukrainian nationalists who want to provoke an armed conflict are the obvious suspects. 

[Fighter]

Piece of history. Khrushchev giving Crimea to Ukraine way back when:

 

[Zoraptor]

http://www.examiner.com/article/russian-spetsnaz-arrested-ukraine

 

Might be BS, though.

I'm inclined not to believe it in the absence of independent confirmation- it isn't like the SBU is a disinterested party. If they had proof you'd expect them to parade it in front of the world's media, not just make a release on their own website. And if Russia were to use spetsnaz to reconnoitre you'd either dress them in civvies and have no one carrying id papers or you'd have all of them carrying them. One carrying them and them wearing uniforms is a bit Scooby Doo villain for the real world; those Russians are sneaky, but not sneaky enough! they send in their elite troops but they make a mistake you wouldn't expect a conscript to make! I'd also question the necessity of it, it isn't like Russia doesn't have military satellites and drones capable of spying and they almost certainly have sympathisers inside the Ukrainian military as well.

 

On the other hand I would be inclined to believe that the shooting incident was the result of buzzed up locals deciding to take out some long simmering resentment on symbols of the old order- because hyped up semi organised men the world over tend to do such things when given the opportunity.

[Fighter]

Here is something juice for you from people who are not the oh so terrible Russian propaganda: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/18/yes_there_are_bad_guys_in_the_ukrainian_government

 

Ukraine is home to Svoboda, arguably Europe's most influential far-right movement today. (In the photo above, Svoboda activists seize a Ministry of Agriculture building during Kiev's Euromaidan protests in January.) Party leader Oleh Tyahnybok is on record complaining that his country is controlled by a "Muscovite-Jewish mafia," while his deputy derided the Ukrainian-born film star Mila Kunis as a "dirty Jewess." In Svoboda's eyes, gays are perverts and black people unfit to represent the nation at Eurovision, lest viewers come away thinking Ukraine is somewhere besides Uganda.
Svoboda began life in the mid-90s as the Social-National Party (a name deliberately redolent of the National Socialist Party, better known as Nazis), with its logo the fascist Wolfsangel. In 2004, the party gave itself an unobjectionable new name (Svoboda means "Freedom") and canned the Nazi imagery, and in the subsequent decade has seen its star swiftly rise.
Today, Svoboda holds a larger chunk of its nation's ministries (nearly a quarter, including the prized defense portfolio) than any other far-right party on the continent. Ukraine's deputy prime minister represents Svoboda (the smaller, even more extreme "Right Sector" coalition fills the deputy National Security Council chair), as does the prosecutor general and the deputy chair of parliament -- where the party is the fourth-largest. And Svoboda's fresh faces are scarcely different from the old: one of its freshmen members of parliament is the founder of the "Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre" and has hailed the Holocaust as a "bright period" in human history.

 

 

Still think eastern Ukraine has nothing to be upset about? No Nazis in Kiev?