Ukraine burns

[Tagaziel]

LOL, you know, that can really be said of any nation. There are a lot of countries which are way smaller than Crimea would be but are still viable. Estonia and Latvia were my previous examples. Don't we have any Estonians on this forum? I'm sure they can vouch for their nation being viably independent.

Except Crimea isn't Estonia or Latvia, both historically independent nations. Not to mention the fact that Crimea is about three times smaller than either and its only land-based access is through Ukraine and would likely be blocked permanently by Ukraine, in retaliation.

Also, Putin be trippin'

 

[Malcador]

Ahh, he said Russian troops. Nothing about Russian gear.

[Sarex]

Except Crimea isn't Estonia or Latvia, both historically independent nations. Not to mention the fact that Crimea is about three times smaller than either and its only land-based access is through Ukraine and would likely be blocked permanently by Ukraine, in retaliation.

Also, Putin be trippin

 

Size doesn't have anything to do with the ability of a state being independent, also if Ukraine does close down land access (which I seriously doubt they will do) they still have sea access.

[Rostere]

You cant call for independece because you became mayority in some part fo sovereign country, that way half of south europe would be part of some African state or independent state, half of countries in Russian federation would be independed etc...

 

Haha, WTF?

 

But yeah, you're right in that parts of Russia could claim independence. Soviet imperialism still lingers.

 

 

LOL, you know, that can really be said of any nation. There are a lot of countries which are way smaller than Crimea would be but are still viable. Estonia and Latvia were my previous examples. Don't we have any Estonians on this forum? I'm sure they can vouch for their nation being viably independent.

Except Crimea isn't Estonia or Latvia, both historically independent nations. Not to mention the fact that Crimea is about three times smaller than either and its only land-based access is through Ukraine and would likely be blocked permanently by Ukraine, in retaliation.

Also, Putin be trippin'

 

Estonia and Latvia, historically independent nations? Surely you are joking. I don't question their independence, but throughout history they have sadly almost constantly been a part of one empire or another.

 

Crimea three times smaller? What are you talking about? The population of Crimea is larger than both that of Latvia and that of Estonia. The area of Crimea is larger than that of Israel. The size of Crimea is not an issue.

 

Iceland has no land access to any other nation. Does that mean it's not a viable state? Sevastopol is the most important port city in the Black Sea. If they should lose land access I bet they would hardly even notice.

[Mor]

What exactly do you find unacceptable about asking the people of Crimea what would they prefer?

Exactly. If Crimea voted on independence and Ukraine was trying to assert its authority there was room for your arguments... ( although it reminds Chechen separatists declaring independence in 1991, which led to 2 invasion by russia).

 

So Putins Russia intervenion in another sovereign state, breaking their previous agreements is gross violation. Also I read that other than taking strategic location and placing checkpoints Russian armed men also cut communication with Ukraine, not sure how effective it is, but certainly it has an effect as no doubt that Russian national news works extra hard to tell the people of Ukrianian Crimea the "truth" and nothing but that truth.

 

I'm now regretting making the comparison to the Munich Agreement. I made it in the sense that the west may end up just handing the land to Russia because the alternative is unthinkable and the original owner doesn't have enough political clout to resist on her own. The similarities end there.[boded by me]

How so? is it Putin's foreign policy of irredentism, with pretext of protecting Russians or his military build up?

 

Because compared to the Kosovo superficial similarities deflection, this examples actually pretty nice.

[Mor]

Also, Putin be trippin'

 

In other news:

...It is clear that in this part of Ukraine, many ethnic Russians distrust the fledgling [interim] government, and some would indeed welcome Russian troops. But the events unfolding in major Ukrainian cities in recent days appear to match a pattern played by the Kremlin in Crimea, where pro-Moscow forces paving the way for Russia to seize control were neither altogether spontaneous, nor entirely local.

 

As pro-Russia demonstrations in 11 cities have suddenly erupted where significant populations of ethnic Russians live, the apparent organization of the demonstrators, appearances of Russian citizens and reports of busloads of activists arriving from Russia itself suggest a high degree of coordination with Moscow. At a minimum, Russians are instigating protests by Ukrainians sympathetic to Moscow, helping to create a pretext for a broader intervention if Mr. Putin decides to push things that far. From Russia, ‘Tourists’ Stir the Protests

Edited March 4, 2014 by Mor

[213374U]

You cant call for independece because you became mayority in some part fo sovereign country, that way half of south europe would be part of some African state or independent state, half of countries in Russian federation would be independed etc...

 

What are you talking about. Which countries in southern Europe have a population that is >60% "African"? (no such ethnicity, language or common ancestry btw)

 

I guess some Russian republics could push for independence on an ethnic basis (Caucasus republics, Tatarstan), but really not on a historic one because those have been Russian lands since the 17th century. Moreover, Russia has not turned against non-Russian ethnicities residing within their territory by couping its own democratically elected government and enacting a ban on the use of languages other than Russian. This is the issue that kickstarted the whole secession deal, remember?

[obyknven]

 

In other news:

...It is clear that in this part of Ukraine, many ethnic Russians distrust the fledgling [interim] government, and some would indeed welcome Russian troops. But the events unfolding in major Ukrainian cities in recent days appear to match a pattern played by the Kremlin in Crimea, where pro-Moscow forces paving the way for Russia to seize control were neither altogether spontaneous, nor entirely local.

 

As pro-Russia demonstrations in 11 cities have suddenly erupted where significant populations of ethnic Russians live, the apparent organization of the demonstrators, appearances of Russian citizens and reports of busloads of activists arriving from Russia itself suggest a high degree of coordination with Moscow. At a minimum, Russians are instigating protests by Ukrainians sympathetic to Moscow, helping to create a pretext for a broader intervention if Mr. Putin decides to push things that far. From Russia, ‘Tourists’ Stir the Protests

 

Typical propaganda about KGB under bed. Pro-West supporters is democratic citiezens while counterpart's supporters are reptiloids enemy agents (all 20 000).

[Gorgon]

 

You will notice that the provocateurs seem to be armed with flags and cameras. In fact would it not be more reasonable to call the Russian occupation a 'provocation'.

What wrong? All military objects on Crimean territory under control of Crimean people now. Crimean selfdefence defend this property, but Ukrainians try make provocations. Guards do everythig right. Do you think crowd can go into any military base in Europe without permission and guards don't begin shoting in this situation? If yes - you are too naive.

 

As I understand it Crimean politicians simply declared that they wanted autonomy and Russian aid. No election. Until democratic legitimacy is restored the best thing would have been to stay away. Securing the bases could easily have been achieved without an occupation force, and that's what they are protesting. Not that there are Russian troops in Russian owned bases.

[HoonDing]

U.S. Readying Russia Sanctions Within Days, Kerry Aides Say.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-04/u-s-readying-russia-sanctions-within-days-kerry-aides-say-1-.html?cmpid=yhoo

Too much vodka in Ukraine

Now this is my kind of imperialism.

[Nepenthe]

 

Let's look back to where I was talking about the Crimeans and the right to self-determination... Right I wasn't. I was talking about the people happy to pull a Chamberlain and let Vlad get his way. By definition, the people of Czec^H^H^HCrimea don't need to be asked their opinion by the appeasers, after all, they don't have to live where the borders get moved around a little...

 

Not sure where I posited that drawing borders in Africa is acceptable, either. I'm sure there are valid counterpoints to my views, but you've spectacularly failed to put forward any by attempting to paint my views as hypocritical and/or inconsistent...

 

 

Uh-huh. You were addressing some unspecified "above" arguments. The post above yours (until oby's posts were approved and appeared magically in between) was dealing specifically with Crimean self-determination. That you spin the issue to disregard the opinions of Crimeans to make it exclusively about Vlad getting his way, does not mean the matter in question is actually about that. Who are "the people" happy to pull a Chamberlain? Because Rostere has explicitly mentioned a referendum, i.e. very much not a Chamberlain scenario. Quote them directly and get your hands dirty instead of burning down strawmen with passive-aggresive remarks.

 

I wasn't trying to paint you as a hypocrite before, but come think of it, you can be a hypocrite by inaction, or rather, by selective action. So there.

Perception's a funny thing, I had you down as the strawmanner. Still do, though I seem to have kissed Rostere's referendum point, in which case mea culpa.

 

As I'm not conducting a scientific or legal argument, I will feel free to address the general tone of posts over a few pages as opposed to providing footnotes. At least until other people start doing it.

[213374U]

Exactly. If Crimea voted on independence and Ukraine was trying to assert its authority there was room for your arguments... ( although it reminds Chechen separatists declaring independence in 1991, which led to 2 invasion by russia).

 

No. You are suggesting Putin needs to wait until there is a referendum in Crimea. And if there were indications that that's where the situation is headed, I'd agree. However, it's abundantly clear by the way the putsch has been carried out in Kiev that they intend to do no such thing. So, by your logic Putin should wait until something that will never happen, happens, while at the same time letting Russian strategic interests be put at risk in addition to only respecting the parts of international law the west tells him to?

 

And read up on the 1st Chechen War. Russia did not outright invade after independence was declared from the Soviet Union (not Russia). There was a civil war in Chechnya prior to Russian intervention that caused a massive exodus of Russians from Chechnya, that is what triggered the Russian invasion.

 

 

How so? is it Putin's foreign policy of irredentism, with pretext of protecting Russians or his military build up?

Because compared to the Kosovo superficial similarities deflection, this examples actually pretty nice.

 

No, the fundamental difference is that Putin is reacting to the fascist putsch in Ukraine and, until proven otherwise, he has no ambitions of annexing parts of Ukraine or other ex-Soviet republics to restore an anachronistic sense of national or ethnic pride.

 

Irredentism? Where?

[Tagaziel]

Estonia and Latvia, historically independent nations? Surely you are joking. I don't question their independence, but throughout history they have sadly almost constantly been a part of one empire or another.

 

Crimea three times smaller? What are you talking about? The population of Crimea is larger than both that of Latvia and that of Estonia. The area of Crimea is larger than that of Israel. The size of Crimea is not an issue.

 

Iceland has no land access to any other nation. Does that mean it's not a viable state? Sevastopol is the most important port city in the Black Sea. If they should lose land access I bet they would hardly even notice.

Your comparisons are all over the place and don't address the underlying point. How will Crimean economy survive? What resources and infrastructure can it draw on to become independent from Russian aid and manipulation? You don't even stick to one country for comparison. Iceland is an island nation that always relied on merchants and it doesn't lie in the Black Sea, while Latvia, Estonia, or Israel don't lie on a peninsula.

[213374U]

As I'm not conducting a scientific or legal argument, I will feel free to address the general tone of posts over a few pages as opposed to providing footnotes. At least until other people start doing it.

 

Nah, nothing to do with rigour, simply a way to make it clear what exactly you are referring to in order to avoid misunderstandings and to give other posters a fair chance at defending their arguments. Making vague comments about "other people" can simply be an expeditious way to shift the goal posts.

 

Of course, this is an informal discussion, so you don't have to do anything, but to me it's simply common courtesy.

[obyknven]

 

As I understand it Crimean politicians simply declared that they wanted autonomy and Russian aid. No election. Until democratic legitimacy is restored the best thing would have been to stay away. Securing the bases could easily have been achieved without an occupation force, and that's what they are protesting. Not that there are Russian troops in Russian owned bases.

 

 

People in Crimea really being scared by Kievan riots. They mostly support autonomy as tool for protect yourself.

 

In Crimea stationed around 20,000 soldiers, border guards, police officers. Mostly of they peacefully join to Crimean people, only few hundred soldiers don't surrender and stay blocked on few millitary bases (from more than 20 bases). And nobody to harm to these Ukrainian soldiers, by my insider reports they feel yourself ok, for example play in football instead of awaiting enemy attack, nobody to threaten them.

 

But Ukrainian propaganda represent them as heroe's who defend homeland against evil invaders in harb combats. They constantly show these few bases on TV etc. It's just brainwashing propaganda in Georgia in 2008 style. Also in last days appeared provocators with journalists who trying to provoke Crimean selfdefence to violent action, but this is few cases, and probably these provocators are not from Crimea even.

 

Just for lolz Crimea create today own Ministry of Defence and own army from these ex-Ukrainian soldiers. It's obviously is not occupation.

 

 

Edited March 4, 2014 by obyknven

[Chilloutman]

 

You cant call for independece because you became mayority in some part fo sovereign country, that way half of south europe would be part of some African state or independent state, half of countries in Russian federation would be independed etc...

 

What are you talking about. Which countries in southern Europe have a population that is >60% "African"? (no such ethnicity, language or common ancestry btw)

 

I guess some Russian republics could push for independence on an ethnic basis (Caucasus republics, Tatarstan), but really not on a historic one because those have been Russian lands since the 17th century. Moreover, Russia has not turned against non-Russian ethnicities residing within their territory by couping its own democratically elected government and enacting a ban on the use of languages other than Russian. This is the issue that kickstarted the whole secession deal, remember?

 

And there is 60% of population russian in Ukraine? No only in one part, its like part of Paris become independed because there is African mayority in that PART

 

edit

 

I searched it and its not even 20%

 

17.3% of the population of Ukraine is Russian ethnic minority

Edited March 4, 2014 by Chilloutman

[obyknven]

 

 

You cant call for independece because you became mayority in some part fo sovereign country, that way half of south europe would be part of some African state or independent state, half of countries in Russian federation would be independed etc...

 

What are you talking about. Which countries in southern Europe have a population that is >60% "African"? (no such ethnicity, language or common ancestry btw)

 

I guess some Russian republics could push for independence on an ethnic basis (Caucasus republics, Tatarstan), but really not on a historic one because those have been Russian lands since the 17th century. Moreover, Russia has not turned against non-Russian ethnicities residing within their territory by couping its own democratically elected government and enacting a ban on the use of languages other than Russian. This is the issue that kickstarted the whole secession deal, remember?

 

And there is 60% of population russian in Ukraine? No only in one part, its like part of Paris become independed because there is African mayority in that PART

 

By some independent reports (from 2008 year) 83% of Ukrainian populace are Russian speaking people.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/109228/Russian-Language-Enjoying-Boost-PostSoviet-States.aspx

Edited March 4, 2014 by obyknven

[Gorgon]

We would have known for sure how large the pro Russian sentiment is had we let things calm down and let the people decide for themselves. 

[213374U]

 

 

You cant call for independece because you became mayority in some part fo sovereign country, that way half of south europe would be part of some African state or independent state, half of countries in Russian federation would be independed etc...

 

What are you talking about. Which countries in southern Europe have a population that is >60% "African"? (no such ethnicity, language or common ancestry btw)

 

I guess some Russian republics could push for independence on an ethnic basis (Caucasus republics, Tatarstan), but really not on a historic one because those have been Russian lands since the 17th century. Moreover, Russia has not turned against non-Russian ethnicities residing within their territory by couping its own democratically elected government and enacting a ban on the use of languages other than Russian. This is the issue that kickstarted the whole secession deal, remember?

 

And there is 60% of population russian in Ukraine? No only in one part, its like part of Paris become independed because there is African mayority in that PART

 

 

What part of Paris has an overwhelming majority of "African" population? Again, no such ethnicity so the, erm, argument falls flat at this point. But are you seriously suggesting that a neighborhood with no historical claim on independence nor a homogeneous ethnic composition or consolidated political identity is the same as Crimea? Seriously, what?

[Meshugger]

I am starting to get confused. Where's the invasion?

[alanschu]

Ukrainian service men attempt to return to airfield to work. Turned aside, return peacefully to barracks.

 

According to the article, warning shots were also fired, though no injuries occurred.

Edited March 4, 2014 by alanschu

[obyknven]

I am starting to get confused. Where's the invasion?

Not needed more. After Markets fall Russian elite buy huge amount of cheap shares.  It's "invasion" is just spectacle for manipulate of Markets. Putin so predictable IRL (for Russians).

[Malcador]

 

No one was injured in the continuing impasse, but there were tense moments as the two sides faced off, and Ukraine troops were forced to choose between their oath to Ukraine and their feelings of affinity with Russia.

 

At the Belbek air base, the Ukrainians chose duty.

 

That was well written. 

[alanschu]

Transcript of Putin's conversation with reporters today

[Tagaziel]

My dear colleague, look how well trained the people who operated in Kiev were. As we all know they were trained at special bases in neighbouring states: in Lithuania, Poland and in Ukraine itself too. They were trained by instructors for extended periods. They were divided into dozens and hundreds, their actions were coordinated, they had good communication systems. It was all like clockwork. Did you see them in action? They looked very professional, like special forces. Why do you think those in Crimea should be any worse?