"Internet Trolls Really are Horrible People"

[Nonek]

 

Not for adults dealing with other adults, so long as house rules are obeyed.

 

Edit: I'm a little bored of my own avatar now however so i will retire from the discussion, adieu.

Nonek thanks for responding to all my questions, I can appreciate the fact that it must have been a little annoying but I sometimes think its a better way to get to a final point so you understand the context of where someone is coming from.

 

In South Africa there is a racist word to describe black people that begins with the letter "K" ( I don't need to say the word). This word is completely unacceptable to use and people in the public limelight who have used the word have been fired, that's how serious it is. This word is derogatory and very offensive and hurtful  to black people and others as it represents the days of Apartheid where black people were marginalised and discriminated against. But its just a word and yet that single word symbolizes something much more. Do you think the millions of black people in South Africa need to have thicker skin around what this word represents for them?

 

So the usage of that word is never acceptable under any circumstances because of our history. Now you have admitted that there are certain words on certain forums that should not be used and I have given you an example of another word that should never be used. Its that same logic that highlights the point that just because its the Internet and a forum discussion it doesn't mean that there should be no responsibility on people to not use those words or say certain things.

 

Its starts with you and how you say things and it starts with you and what you are prepared to accept when you engage in discussion

 

On RPGCodex around the post that "PoE wouldn' have Romance " I read some of the comments. Some people made comments like " well if they have Romance then I want the option to be able to rape someone". Of course they were being sarcastic but the fact that they are so indifferent about a serious problem that faces society tells me that some of the members really think that this type of humour is acceptable and the worst part of it is that the website and the moderators seem fine with this type of debate

 

All I ask is that people have some empathy around bigotry and discrimination. Its real and does upset and impact thousand of people on a daily basis. And we also need to realize that there are certain boundaries that on public forum that we should never cross. Even if you feel if doesn't effect you personally that doesn't mean it isn't a serious issue for others

 

 

Yes Bruce i'm quite aware of what you were doing and that is why I avoided your little trap with ease, and as I said I don't believe in censoring words whether they cause offence or not for adults, and I would say that studying the insult you refer to and its original use by Islamic slave traders is worthy of discussion and further education. Whether the tribes who have come to now inhabit the South African region are insulted by this appelation or not is hardly a matter worthy of bringing up in the etymology of the word, it exists, it was used and trying to lie and erase something from history is shameful and wrong headed, those who forget the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them.

 

As I have said discussion for adults should not be blinkered by political correct and fashionable lies, enforced by those who see it as a professional duty to take offence on the net, have a self righteous attitude that their feelings are important and they know what is right and wrong and wish to enforce that on others. These people who actively search for topics to take offence on, yet do not like to examine their own work and actions, should grow thicker skins and not place such importance on the words of strangers from half a world away. If the matter is that important and they are so touchy on it simply do not place it in the public sphere, avoid places where it is openly discussed and seek professional counselling rather than browsing the net. To try and wallow in offence and self rigtheous posturing is the action of a needy child seeking attention and not worthy of a grown up, and keeping private matters private is not wrong or censorious.

 

Rough jokes and inconsiderate humour are just that, abuse and threats are what they are and the two things are different, should the Life of Brian not have been made because the Church of England were offended? Should Lady Chatterley's Lover never have been written or read because of offence taken by those who disliked and hated this modern medium and this supposed filth? Should the Bible never have been translated into English because that is not a holy language? The answer is no to all of the above and many more, and those who try and stifle free speech... well let's just say that I wouldn't like to live in the backwards, humourless and ever so dull world they live in.

 

I take offence at their wish to censor everything, even a few gentlemen sharing some rough politically incorrect jokes and ribbing when under the influence of a few pints. However I would not say that they should be censored, or that everybody should listen to my oh so important feelings on this, because i'm not special, i'm not right and my offence means nothing and certainly should not be enforced on other people.

 

Addendum: I do not partake in abuse or even swear so the implication that i'm trying to make myself feel good about my words and actions is false. I simply do not believe in constraining free speech for adults, whether it is for self pity, self righteousness or somebody somewhere drawing offence from any word that is spoken. If you do constrain them and have a prefect method of policing this for all seven billion people at all times then they are not adults, they are children and slaves who cannot speak their minds. We have little enough freedom as it is, I cannot understand this ill thought out desire to further decrease it.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Nonek

[BruceVC]

 

 

Not for adults dealing with other adults, so long as house rules are obeyed.

 

Edit: I'm a little bored of my own avatar now however so i will retire from the discussion, adieu.

Nonek thanks for responding to all my questions, I can appreciate the fact that it must have been a little annoying but I sometimes think its a better way to get to a final point so you understand the context of where someone is coming from.

 

In South Africa there is a racist word to describe black people that begins with the letter "K" ( I don't need to say the word). This word is completely unacceptable to use and people in the public limelight who have used the word have been fired, that's how serious it is. This word is derogatory and very offensive and hurtful  to black people and others as it represents the days of Apartheid where black people were marginalised and discriminated against. But its just a word and yet that single word symbolizes something much more. Do you think the millions of black people in South Africa need to have thicker skin around what this word represents for them?

 

So the usage of that word is never acceptable under any circumstances because of our history. Now you have admitted that there are certain words on certain forums that should not be used and I have given you an example of another word that should never be used. Its that same logic that highlights the point that just because its the Internet and a forum discussion it doesn't mean that there should be no responsibility on people to not use those words or say certain things.

 

Its starts with you and how you say things and it starts with you and what you are prepared to accept when you engage in discussion

 

On RPGCodex around the post that "PoE wouldn' have Romance " I read some of the comments. Some people made comments like " well if they have Romance then I want the option to be able to rape someone". Of course they were being sarcastic but the fact that they are so indifferent about a serious problem that faces society tells me that some of the members really think that this type of humour is acceptable and the worst part of it is that the website and the moderators seem fine with this type of debate

 

All I ask is that people have some empathy around bigotry and discrimination. Its real and does upset and impact thousand of people on a daily basis. And we also need to realize that there are certain boundaries that on public forum that we should never cross. Even if you feel if doesn't effect you personally that doesn't mean it isn't a serious issue for others

 

 

Yes Bruce i'm quite aware of what you were doing and that is why I avoided your little trap with ease, and as I said I don't believe in censoring words whether they cause offence or not for adults, and I would say that studying the insult you refer to and its original use by Islamic slave traders is worthy of discussion and further education. Whether the tribes who have come to now inhabit the South African region are insulted by this appelation or not is hardly a matter worthy of bringing up in the etymology of the word, it exists, it was used and trying to lie and erase something from history is shameful and wrong headed, those who forget the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them.

 

As I have said discussion for adults should not be blinkered by political correct and fashionable lies, enforced by those who see it as a professional duty to take offence on the net, have a self righteous attitude that their feelings are important and they know what is right and wrong and wish to enforce that on others. These people who actively search for topics to take offence on, yet do not like to examine their own work and actions, should grow thicker skins and not place such importance on the words of strangers from half a world away. If the matter is that important and they are so touchy on it simply do not place it in the public sphere, avoid places where it is openly discussed and seek professional counselling rather than browsing the net. To try and wallow in offence and self rigtheous posturing is the action of a needy child seeking attention and not worthy of a grown up, and keeping private matters private is not wrong or censorious.

 

Rough jokes and inconsiderate humour are just that, abuse and threats are what they are and the two things are different, should the Life of Brian not have been made because the Church of England were offended? Should Lady Chatterley's Lover never have been written or read because of offence taken by those who disliked and hated this modern medium and this supposed filth? Should the Bible never have been translated into English because that is not a holy language? The answer is no to all of the above and many more, and those who try and stifle free speech... well let's just say that I wouldn't like to live in the backwards, humourless and ever so dull world they live in.

 

I take offence at their wish to censor everything, even a few gentlemen sharing some rough politically incorrect jokes and ribbing when under the influence of a few pints. However I would not say that they should be censored, or that everybody should listen to my oh so important feelings on this, because i'm not special, i'm not right and my offence means nothing and certainly should not be enforced on other people.

 

Addendum: I do not partake in abuse or even swear so the implication that i'm trying to make myself feel good about my words and actions is false. I simply do not believe in constraining free speech for adults, whether it is for self pity, self righteousness or somebody somewhere drawing offence from any word that is spoken. If you do constrain them and have a prefect method of policing this for all seven billion people at all times then they are not adults, they are children and slaves who cannot speak their minds. We have little enough freedom as it is, I cannot understand this ill thought out desire to further decrease it.

 

 

Interesting post, I'm surprised you used the word "trap". I prefer to say I spent time understanding your perspective and then tried to present you with an alternative view, but if you feel I tried to trap you that's fine

 

In South Africa most people don't know the original meaning of the word and that's irrelevant as all that matters is what the word means now, what it represents and how it was used during apartheid. But you don't think words can symbolize anything, you don't  think words can cause offense or be hurtful . You and I are diametrically opposed to each other  in this debate and that's how it will continue to be and that's fine. We all have our own opinions

Edited February 24, 2014 by BruceVC

[alanschu]

Meh. Why?

 

It's harmless. People get worked up over nothing.

It is funny though, to see you get all worked up because some guy decided to troll some anime threads that you created.

 

I'd disagree, as someone that knows little about anime the entire thread was derailed by a bunch of absurdity that instead of having an opportunity to talk about it, I had to deal with the usual nonsense that was unproductive and ended up vacating the thread.

 

So maybe it was harmless and good fun to you, but for me it was a waste of my time and neutered a discussion before it even began. I don't consider this a positive.

 

 

EDIT: And yes, I consider constant exposure to that sort of stuff to have a socializing effect, even if it's online.

Edited February 24, 2014 by alanschu

[Malcador]

Well, I suppose 3 months or so isn't that old to dig up something to burn him with.

[Meshugger]

 

I specifically said that internet message board-trolls wasn't point of my question. Oh well.

Well, that was a bit confusing because my discussion was about trolls on internet message boards (or rather, private property in general), and beyond.

 

If you're not referring to trolls on internet message boards, then you seem to be excluding a group that you implicitly include in the first part of your question.

 

 

You asked me "what are your principles regarding free speech and the application of these on public and private servers?" Your intent then, was to shift the discussion onto free speech in general and what that means, as opposed to within the context of the current discussion? You did say "I will ask again" (but then asked a different question...) but my initial elaboration was that I wasn't clear when I said "I think I may be taking the definition of free speech a bit too literally (i.e. from something like the first amendment), since I don't typically see silencing or ignoring a troll to be a violation of free speech."

 

 

I already answered this, when Zoraptor called me on it, in that I clarified that I was referring to the legal right to free speech, which isn't applied in a private space. In that sense, I don't see banning a troll as a violation of anyone's right to free speech. The troll can still go and be a troll without fear of government persecution. He just can't do it on someone's private property anymore.

 

 

You're right that my original statement was wrong. I thought, though, that that was cleared up when Zoraptor pointed it out and I recanted the original statement.

 

 

Fair enough.

 

I simply wondered because i have no idea on what your stance is on, well, anything. With a firm understanding on where you are coming from, in this case on the applications of free speech, i can at least form a counter-point. But you have this habit of answering questions with questions so the whole argument becomes a long "-__________-" to read. A word of advice though, assuming intent without clarification will bite you in the long run.

[alanschu]

Well, I suppose 3 months or so isn't that old to dig up something to burn him with.

I remember the discussion so it's trivial to look it up. Blame my memory if you'd like.

[Malcador]

Still remember some guy bringing up something from 8 years previous to burn me with, was pretty funny though.

[alanschu]

Fair enough.

 

I simply wondered because i have no idea on what your stance is on, well, anything. With a firm understanding on where you are coming from, in this case on the applications of free speech, i can at least form a counter-point. But you have this habit of answering questions with questions so the whole argument becomes a long "-__________-" to read. A word of advice though, assuming intent without clarification will bite you in the long run.

 

Agreed, fair enough

 

I do often answer questions with questions of my own. But yeah, depending on how the discussion is going (and my desire to keep the discussion going), I'll usually ask questions of my own. Normally because they're the questions I ask myself as well.

[alanschu]

Still remember some guy bringing up something from 8 years previous to burn me with, was pretty funny though.

It was probably me that did it.

 

 

Note, I am also this although I am much more likely to disengage/ignore than I used to be.

Edited February 24, 2014 by alanschu

[213374U]

Still remember some guy bringing up something from 8 years previous to burn me with, was pretty funny though.

 

I was tempted to bring up a troll thread from 2005 that I started that turned out pretty well, as an example. Decided against it because... no real point. But yeah, funny how the memory works. Can't remember the name of this coworker I need to talk to or that formula that I absolutely need for this exam... but remember vividly some silly discussion from ten years ago.

 

[alanschu]

We could probably create a thread about the obscure and bizarro stuff we remember.... lol.

 

I think it was this thread where I made a reference to you and I at each other's throats regarding piracy in London or some other. Maybe it wasn't you, but I do remember taking a break from the forum for quite some time after that hahahaha.

[Nonek]

 

Interesting post, I'm surprised you used the word "trap". I prefer to say I spent time understanding your perspective and then tried to present you with an alternative view, but if you feel I tried to trap you that's fine

 

In South Africa most people don't know the original meaning of the word and that's irrelevant as all that matters is what the word means now, what it represents and how it was used during apartheid. But you don't think words can symbolize anything, you don't  think words can cause offense or be hurtful . You and I are diametrically opposed to each other  in this debate and that's how it will continue to be and that's fine. We all have our own opinions

 

 

I see nothing wrong with setting up such a trap using others words Bruce it's a nice tactic in any good argument if successful, however it's not that I dismiss the importance of words but that I see them as too important to constrain in any way, that is why I hold free speech and dialogue to be so important. They should not be held back by such things as offensiveness or hurtfulness, which are entirely subjective and often extremely wrong.

[Malcador]

 

Still remember some guy bringing up something from 8 years previous to burn me with, was pretty funny though.

 

I was tempted to bring up a troll thread from 2005 that I started that turned out pretty well, as an example. Decided against it because... no real point. But yeah, funny how the memory works. Can't remember the name of this coworker I need to talk to or that formula that I absolutely need for this exam... but remember vividly some silly discussion from ten years ago.

 

 

 

I still recall keybindings from X-Wing back in 1994, yet I can't remember how to do quicksort.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Interesting post, I'm surprised you used the word "trap". I prefer to say I spent time understanding your perspective and then tried to present you with an alternative view, but if you feel I tried to trap you that's fine

 

In South Africa most people don't know the original meaning of the word and that's irrelevant as all that matters is what the word means now, what it represents and how it was used during apartheid. But you don't think words can symbolize anything, you don't  think words can cause offense or be hurtful . You and I are diametrically opposed to each other  in this debate and that's how it will continue to be and that's fine. We all have our own opinions

 

 

I see nothing wrong with setting up such a trap using others words Bruce it's a nice tactic in any good argument if successful, however it's not that I dismiss the importance of words but that I see them as too important to constrain in any way, that is why I hold free speech and dialogue to be so important. They should not be held back by such things as offensiveness or hurtfulness, which are entirely subjective and often extremely wrong.

 

 

Alright, I can't lie... I'm feeling guilty   I did try to trap you but it failed. But if it had succeeded it would have been a grand moment

[TrashMan]

 

 

Interesting post, I'm surprised you used the word "trap". I prefer to say I spent time understanding your perspective and then tried to present you with an alternative view, but if you feel I tried to trap you that's fine

 

In South Africa most people don't know the original meaning of the word and that's irrelevant as all that matters is what the word means now, what it represents and how it was used during apartheid. But you don't think words can symbolize anything, you don't  think words can cause offense or be hurtful . You and I are diametrically opposed to each other  in this debate and that's how it will continue to be and that's fine. We all have our own opinions

 

 

 

Words can hurt...as long as you let them.

WE shape the words. WE give them meaning...or should I say, we give them aditional emotional baggage.

The more importance you give it, the bigger it's hold over you.

 

As long as you treat word X as unnaceptable, ti will remain like that. And that goes for more than words.

 

Words and meanings change. The Svastika was (still is) a great symbol that suddenly became forbidden because of natzi's. Or the roman eagle - it too is now often seen as hidden natzism.

 

If it can go one way, then it can go another too.

 

Yes, our associations and baggage make that difficult, but it can be done. And it will happen eventually.

[TrashMan]

 

Meh. Why?

 

It's harmless. People get worked up over nothing.

It is funny though, to see you get all worked up because some guy decided to troll some anime threads that you created.

 

 

And?

 

Do you consider that a counter-argument of some kind?

 

Since when am I exempt from the failings of humanity?

[yaggaz]

Yes, there SHOULD be a romance in the game.  But only if the romancable character is a random bush pig or a poisonous snake.

 

~sneakily looks left and then cautiously to the right~