Body Types and video games

[Gromnir]

"The issue isn't even about attractiveness. The new Lara Croft is still a very attractive woman. She just isn't absurdly and inhumanly proportioned like she was in many of the early PSX games."

 

absurdly stoopid. compare new lara croft to old psx? HA! graphic capabilities of psx for rendering a sexual appealing female that were other than a static image were limited in mid 1990s. imagine telling a game developer circa 1995-1996 to create a "hawt" female avatar, playable in an action-adventure game, that had realistic/reasonable proportions. as we didnt bother reading alan post past this point, am not sure if he said anything of merit, but this nonsense pretty much shut door on alan for us. 

 

*chuckle*

 

folks is frequent most amusing when they is trying to be serious. seriously.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hurlshort]

So what is the difference between getting upset over the boobs being too big, and getting upset over the boobs being too small?

 

I'm not the kind to get upset about the big boobs.  If that is the art style the developer wants, that's their prerogative.  However it doesn't appeal to me, and as a father I'd be embarrassed to have my kids see me play a game like that.  I tend to avoid ultra gory games and expletive filled games for the same reason.  

 

It's all a matter of business.  Is it worth it for the developer to shrink the boobs to broaden the appeal, if they lose some of their hardcore audience?  That's not for me to say, it's totally the developer's choice.   

[Amentep]

My memory of the original Tomb Raider was that Lara Crofts bosom looked (not exactly) like a 3D triangle.

 

It was only in later iterations as they improved the graphics did they hew to the proportions created by that initial triangle like quadrilateral form (or was it a pentagon?).

[Orogun01]

 

... when in reality its just a very vocal minority.

But see, that's the part I really don't understand. Isn't the other side, that insists upon leaving certain body image art alone/inclusive, also a "very vocal minority?" I mean, it's not like I consider the postings of people on forums representative of the game buying population as a whole, in either direction. Most consumers still likely don't ever bother to frequent forums.

 

If I were to guess (and note it's only me guessing), I'd suspect the actual majority would be more like GhostofAnkain (or myself, really, when it comes down to it) - where they really don't care too much one way or another, because for them, while options are always great, in the end what a character looks like isn't what actually defines whether they want to play a game or whether they think a game is good or bad.

 

It does seem to me that there hasn't been enough research on what type of games this "50% are women" statistic that gets tossed around are actually playing, however. It wouldn't surprise me, tho, if RPG's are one of the genres that women tend to choose and/or that they're starting to play a lot more variety than many seem to think. At any rate, if the companies feel the female audience is growing, and they can make more money by trying to attract them further into the fray, so to speak, well...yeah. It's going to happen.

 

If they later discover it's not bringing them more profits, they'll eventually try something else instead. Happens all the time. So if y'all are actually right, instead of just believing/convincing yourselves you're right, and it's just a vocal tiny minority, some of who never even play the games they're protesting against, all you have to do is wait for the companies to realize it.

 

Actually upon close inspection of the study you can see that there is an overlap between the percent of women playing games, the percent of women playing games online and the number of people that play social games (Farmville).

 

While I believe in artistic expression and I agree that video games like comics in the 90's have become homogeneous, I don't think forcing the issue is the way to go about it. But i'm sure that there is an ulterior motive behind the people who pursue this issue; whether they realize it or not. In my mind if they honestly cared so much about equal representation on games they would get a degree in computer science, or digital art, or any game related fields and be the change they want to see in the world.

 

They can't really expect to whine loud enough until someone listens to them and to be considered equal on top of that, as if whining was something to be praised.

 

 

 

I know I've said this before, but most games are trying to appeal to a large audience, and cartoony large boobs with tiny waists is really more of a niche appeal.

Since when? A lot of people seem to enjoy comics, too, and cartoony body proportions certainly exist there. In fact, i'd posit they were imported from there.

 

One would think that cartoony body proportions came from...well...cartoons. But then I don't think anyone is complaining about Betty Boop on the thread. Or Daisy Duck. Or Minnie Mouse. Jessica Rabbit maybe?

 

That said massive mammaries in superhero comic books are a modern day hot button topic in comics communities as people wonder whether "breast size" actually counts towards existing characterization or if its just continually perpetuated titillation. Heck there was outrage - OUTRAGE - when DC attempted to have Wonder Woman wear pants a couple of years ago, much less doing something like...de-emphasizing Power Girl's bust (which also gets cries of outrage).

 

On the subject of cartoons, there's an entire generation of cartoons that have been whitewashed and won't show on TV because of sexual and racist references that could be offensive to anyone. Which is a shame cuz Tex Avery made the best damn toons ever, and they won't show them because some kids may turn racist (but they still allow lil' wayne on tv, go figure)

[Mamoulian War]

 

 

 

 

 A better comparison would be if your male character in a game only wore a loincloth but had this massive bulge in his pants that was completely out of context. How would you feel every time you looked at your character, in fact lets say that every male character in the game irrespective of what they wore had this massive bulge in the pants?

Yes, because we are talking about oversized labias and especially clitori and the wet pants that female game characters have.

 

 

"sign" ....its a called an analogy.

 

I was demonstrating what for most men would be the objectification of themselves in games

 

 

No, the whole point is trying to equalise to different things. Big breasts in video games are analogous to massive arms, pecs and sixpack abs on (almost all) male characters.

 

And Mario...

 

 

 

 

 

 A better comparison would be if your male character in a game only wore a loincloth but had this massive bulge in his pants that was completely out of context. How would you feel every time you looked at your character, in fact lets say that every male character in the game irrespective of what they wore had this massive bulge in the pants?

Yes, because we are talking about oversized labias and especially clitori and the wet pants that female game characters have.

 

 

"sign" ....its a called an analogy.

 

I was demonstrating what for most men would be the objectification of themselves in games

 

 

No, the whole point is trying to equalise to different things. Big breasts in video games are analogous to massive arms, pecs and sixpack abs on (almost all) male characters.

 

And Mario...

 

 

I hear you but I still think that massive breast's has a sexual objectification that is not quite the same as good arms or pecs for a man. But we can agree to disagree on this one

 

 

I have to comment on this one... I have few female friends which consider sixpacks and big muscles as much bigger sexual objectifications of men, than most of men on these boards are thinking about big boobs as objectification of women

 

And one question. My current assistant at work, which plays videogames has bigger boobs, than most of the female characters I have ever seen in videogames... Should she feel outraged too, that she cannot play a female characters which fully represent her body type?

 

And to Alan... Mario is japanese character. Japanese developers shown in the past much more flexibility than their western counterparts, when it goes about depicting various body types and character types or trying to keep away from typical stereotypes. As an example for all could be used Drakensang series...

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

 A better comparison would be if your male character in a game only wore a loincloth but had this massive bulge in his pants that was completely out of context. How would you feel every time you looked at your character, in fact lets say that every male character in the game irrespective of what they wore had this massive bulge in the pants?

Yes, because we are talking about oversized labias and especially clitori and the wet pants that female game characters have.

 

 

"sign" ....its a called an analogy.

 

I was demonstrating what for most men would be the objectification of themselves in games

 

 

No, the whole point is trying to equalise to different things. Big breasts in video games are analogous to massive arms, pecs and sixpack abs on (almost all) male characters.

 

And Mario...

 

 

 

 

 

 A better comparison would be if your male character in a game only wore a loincloth but had this massive bulge in his pants that was completely out of context. How would you feel every time you looked at your character, in fact lets say that every male character in the game irrespective of what they wore had this massive bulge in the pants?

Yes, because we are talking about oversized labias and especially clitori and the wet pants that female game characters have.

 

 

"sign" ....its a called an analogy.

 

I was demonstrating what for most men would be the objectification of themselves in games

 

 

No, the whole point is trying to equalise to different things. Big breasts in video games are analogous to massive arms, pecs and sixpack abs on (almost all) male characters.

 

And Mario...

 

 

I hear you but I still think that massive breast's has a sexual objectification that is not quite the same as good arms or pecs for a man. But we can agree to disagree on this one

 

 

I have to comment on this one... I have few female friends which consider sixpacks and big muscles as much bigger sexual objectifications of men, than most of men on these boards are thinking about big boobs as objectification of women

 

And one question. My current assistant at work, which plays videogames has bigger boobs, than most of the female characters I have ever seen in videogames... Should she feel outraged too, that she cannot play a female characters which fully represent her body type?

 

And to Alan... Mario is japanese character. Japanese developers shown in the past much more flexibility than their western counterparts, when it goes about depicting various body types and character types or trying to keep away from typical stereotypes. As an example for all could be used Drakensang series...

 

 

Come now, don't be silly. I have no issue with big boobs. I have an issue with the representation of women in some games and if you assistant is fine with the status quo then this not an issue for her but it doesn't change the fact its an issue for many others

[Gfted1]

Ron Jeremy as Mario makes me lol. Does someone need their pipes cleaned...

[Mamoulian War]

@ Bruce Of course I overexagerated that, but believe it or not, there are lot of women who do not consider big boobs in games as objectification of their gender, as there are many men who do not consider sixpacks as objectification of their gender

Edited January 21, 2014 by Mamoulian War

[Gfted1]

I cant resist:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xljA6zJn4I&feature=player_embedded

[Zoraptor]

You can write an enormous amount on this subject but the while issue boils down to two things, imo. Firstly, women and men are different. But then, so is this man from that man or this woman from that woman. Given that there are a lot of women run and women focussed media that 'promote' the same sort of body image as used in many video games suggests that the 'problem' is not just with one form of recreation, nor with one sex imposing its views on the other. And that tends to make the generalisations used far weaker since there's always a counterexample.

 

Ultimately though, the problem is one of Character vs Caricature. If you're dealing primarily with developing a character then the physical appearance of that character tends to be less important whether male or female. If you're dealing in caricature then "oooooh, sexy laydeee!" getting written on the whiteboard is par for the course, much as "beefcake McActionCliche" or "haha comedic sidekick so funny" might be used. The video game industry is not shallow because it has lots of big bristol bits, a cornucopia of charlies or a munificence of mammaries, that's just a symptom. The video game industry is shallow because, as with most entertainment shallow sells easily while complicated (and good, of course) is actually difficult and risky and hence less economic. Simply making women more realistically proportioned will not transform a game from shallow into deep and it's very unlikely to do much for the kind of person who gets 'damaged' (very distinctly opposed to offended) by that sort of thing either because there's massive amounts of other such 'damaging' stuff around, they're unlikely to be playing such games anyway, and the root problem is a lack of self confidence and self acceptance that cannot be papered over by removing a symptom.

 

I kind of have a foot in each camp. I'll happily choose female characters for my RPGs because I find them more pleasant to look at than male ones (and my femshep was so hawt she melted my video card) but I also prefer more realistic proportions, find things like the boobie cards in TWitcher cringe inducing and my favourite female characters are so not for their sexy appearance.

[Gromnir]

 

 

Ultimately though, the problem is one of Character vs Caricature. If you're dealing primarily with developing a character then the physical appearance of that character tends to be less important whether male or female. 

 

chrisA would disagree with you. he has mentioned in a couple blogs and presentations at game conferences that a character "hook" is mostest important, and that the hook is most frequent visual. take motb characters as an example. kaelyn and okku is as much a product o' visual as they is of dialogue... dove, in particular, tends towards tedious exposition. her character and appeal is as much a part of visuals as cumbersome dialogue. no doubt chrisA learned hard lessons from ps:t. frequent criticism o' the nameless one from ps:t were his unpleasant appearance, whereas fall-from-grace, who had little quality character development, is lauded by folks on these boards. another classic example o' hook o'r substance: dogmeat from fo. its a freaking dog for chrissakes. chrisA mentions that is common that the concept artist creates the hook, the Visual hook, that defines the character.

 

am thinking chrisA learned some bad lessons from ps:t and other games, but he, at the very least, heartily disagrees with you. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps  tolkien thought the mostest important aspect o' character development were the name o' the character. 

Edited January 22, 2014 by Gromnir

[Zoraptor]

Yeah Grommy, in a discussion about the stereotypical physical attractiveness tropes a visual hook like Okku is clearly relevant, seeing as, er, he's a Big Gay Rainbow Bear? fanservice for furries? And of course if you're dealing with stereotypical physical attractiveness or even just physical appearance being the critical factor then any other factor intruding makes it 'less important' by definition.

 

Meh, I simply do not view Kaelyn as an albino half angel or Gann as a monochrome half hag or Kreia as an old crone or Okku as a rainbow bear, or Shodan as a computer avatar for that matter; that's just a physical/ visual description and if that's all there is then the character is ultimately forgettable and ultimately a failure as a character. It does give the first impression, as does the voice, and the first impression is very important in establishing initial interest. But if that's all there is to the character then they have to ultimately be a caricature- anybody you can describe completely with one or two words or a mere physical description is a caricature, by definition.

 

Chris A certainly does not disagree with what I've said at all, at worst it's a parallel point and I'd tend to say it actually reinforces my point. It was also made in terms of video games being a visual medium so art design issues being important.

[Gromnir]

"Ultimately though, the problem is one of Character vs Caricature. If you're dealing primarily with developing a character then the physical appearance of that character tends to be less important whether male or female. "

 

in case you already forgot what you said. meant something a bit less expansive? fine. clarification would be to your benefit. that being said, is funny that you would wanna try to distinguish "first impression" from overreaching character development. is kinda... cute. 

 

*shrug*

 

 "It was also made in terms of video games being a visual medium so art design issues being important."

 

you mischaracterize, but you are correct that video games is visual media. perhaps you should try to keep that in mind.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Orogun01]

If I may interject, I believe the issue of a visual hook is related to the fact character progression relies on player input in games. The player needs to be somewhat invested in a character in order to want to know more about a character. Visual hooks are an effective way of doing that and they are in no way restricted to just physical attractiveness, Shale and Ignus are two examples of the relation between looks and background that don't fall in the sexy category. (Unless you have a thing for flames and rocks)

[BruceVC]

If I may interject, I believe the issue of a visual hook is related to the fact character progression relies on player input in games. The player needs to be somewhat invested in a character in order to want to know more about a character. Visual hooks are an effective way of doing that and they are in no way restricted to just physical attractiveness, Shale and Ignus are two examples of the relation between looks and background that don't fall in the sexy category. (Unless you have a thing for flames and rocks)

 

Orog part of this discussion is about equality, please don't discriminate against rock creatures. They have feelings and rights the same as every other minority group

[Gromnir]

Visual hooks are an effective way of doing that and they are in no way restricted to just physical attractiveness, 

which is why we brought up the bear from motb.  regardless, zor being dismissive of the role of appearance in character development of a crpg character is what prompted our response. while we hardly go as far as does chrisA insofar as the primacy o the hook (especial the visual hook,) we does at least recognize its importance. games is not the best medium for developing characters through dialogue, and rare is the developer/writer who actually has their characters achieve growth through actions, so appearance becomes increasing important... not less.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[kirottu]

Only time I have problem with body types is when the old have the same hot young body type as everyone else. It looks wierd.

[GhostofAnakin]

Only time I have problem with body types is when the old have the same hot young body type as everyone else. It looks wierd.

 

Stop hating on Flemith.

[alanschu]

What is culturally considered attractive, however, is ever changing and is definitely not ruled by instinct alone

So true. I mean, you can see the cultural differences of what is considered attractive between different cultures today. I doubt many of us find neck rings attractive.

 

 

 

Make the female breasts gigantic or make them more "normal" (which, by the way, is kind of dismissive of the fact there are women who actually have huge breasts.

There certainly are. But they are, in my opinion, very much overrepresented in video gaming (and most culture, really). This seems like a misdirection, however, because the argument is not "there can never big big breasted women ever." That's what I mean by "reading into it" because it seems like the position you think people like myself take is inconsistent with the position that I feel I mean to convey. I'm not against voluptuous women existing in video games. I don't even really care about a game like Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball existing. It's looking at it in the greater cultural picture, especially with this aspect of geek culture (animation and art like comics ties in very closely, in my opinion).

 

So when you say that it comes across as "no big boobs ever for any reason" then it becomes as frustrating for me as the original argument is for you, because it's definitely not the position that I am trying to convey.

 

 

Note, however, that this ties in somewhat to a systemic issue with asset/model/rigging reuse in video games as well. On the one hand, it's expensive to create varying body types, both in terms of creating the assets themselves as well as resource budgets. There's a predisposition for character models to be built on the same rigging, so on some level developers have implicitly mandated that certain types will not be represented. So you say that big breasted women will be the ones under represented if we move towards more generally smaller breasted women in games. That's a fair enough assessment. But it's sort of similar to male-female disparity, or white/person of colour disparity. People asking for more female protagonists means that there will be a cost of less male protagonists. Asking for more people of colour in games means that those characters will not be represented as white people.

 

Is this a problem? On some level is it "well, you have lots of other alternatives if that is important to you?" This starts to extend far beyond just body types and is certainly a topic I find interesting. If we want to continue along these lines then I could see the thread evolving down that line of discussion too.

 

 

so political gender correctness discussion again? I am male and mostly playing male characters as well. I definetely doesnt have six packs but I am not insulted at all if someone play character like that. As long as it have at least some meaning I like 'attractive' womens in games. What problem is it?

That's it's not something that bothers you doesn't mean that it isn't something that bothers other people. It's not unlike me going "ugh, another Call of Duty game" even though there's another (several...) person out there that has no problems at all with it because it's exactly what they want. I like attractive women too, and will likely pick an attractive male character if given the choice of protagonist. The thing is, if a woman must be attractive in order to have value in a video game, then that IS a reflection of what I would consider to be a cultural problem.

 

Hopefully more characters like Ellie show that that is not the case, because part of the problem is also a degree of being gunshy by the larger developers. Indie can make an impact and experiment more freely, though at the same time they tend to need less diverse appeal.

 

 

 

In the case of WildStar the outrage seems to be more because its a change rather than a design choice. This signifies to many that they are buckling under pressure or trying to pander to feminists. Game companies (at least the publishers) could care less about what goes into a game that doesn't make them money, they probably interpreted that study about game demographics that says that women make up about half the gamers wrong. So pandering to what they perceive is a new growing market when in reality its just a very vocal minority.

I'd be interested to see how much overlap there is in people that are upset with this and those that wanted Mass Effect 3's ending rewritten, or Fallout 3's, and so forth. Do we chastize Bethesda for retconning their ending based on public feedback?

 

Enough people evidently spoke up for Wildstar, and the developers changed it for what could be an infinite number of reasons since we don't actually know the reasons. It also precludes the fact that no one internally agreed that it would be artistically better to make the changes.

 

 

And the market *is* becoming more diverse (and I consider this a good thing). Just as the diversity of those that develop games becomes increasingly diverse as well. There may not be new people playing the latest Call of Duty style game, but there's other game styles out there that introduce people to gaming and lead to them exploring other types of gaming, finding a passion in gaming, and maybe even leveraging that passion into some changes that you and I *do* care about. Unless you'd prefer that the industry keep its heavy focus on Call of Duty style games.

 

Systems like the Wii and games like The Sims have virtually no appeal to me. But for others it works as a gateway introduction into gaming. They may not leave that product space, but some of them try out other games they wouldn't have tried and help create an influence on game features that I am interested in.

 

 

 

Cool, so we can some day have out of shape Marines in our games.

This is just a red herring and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're just trolling, because you seem smarter than that.

 

As Nonek put it in the news thread, the degree of verisimilitude for one's physical appearance will still be important to some people. You can see similar discussions on this forum with regards to Pillars of Eternity, based on whether or not armor styles should be heavily stylized or have a stronger focus on functional plausibility.

[alanschu]

That and yielding before these social justice slacktivist types is good PR.  Though it's a bit amusing to consider this an injustice of any sort.

 

I do agree, that if these are the problems we have as a society, then life is pretty good for us. Yes, it can be good PR (though I couldn't quantify how much, nor how many people see it simply as a PR stunt and consider it a negative. Wildstar seems to have its share of people decrying developers forfeiting their artistic integrity for the almighty dollar).

 

Still, I'd rather have discussions about this over a lot of other things, simply because if I am discussing this then my life is likely at an improved level of comfort than it otherwise could be.

[Zoraptor]

is funny that you would wanna try to distinguish "first impression" from overreaching character development. is kinda... cute.

Oh please, appearance is less important in a character than in a caricature, FACT, because a character has other aspects than appearance. You don't even seem aware that you're saying the same thing I am when citing Okku. And first impression is different from overreaching character development, also FACT. It's an aspect of it, but of course when it comes to caricature there's nothing else but that first impression as that's what a caricature is, hence the distinction.

 

So, you now know the difference between a character and a caricature as well as the difference between Richter and Mercalli.

[alanschu]

One would think that cartoony body proportions came from...well...cartoons. But then I don't think anyone is complaining about Betty Boop on the thread. Or Daisy Duck. Or Minnie Mouse. Jessica Rabbit maybe?

 

That said massive mammaries in superhero comic books are a modern day hot button topic in comics communities as people wonder whether "breast size" actually counts towards existing characterization or if its just continually perpetuated titillation. Heck there was outrage - OUTRAGE - when DC attempted to have Wonder Woman wear pants a couple of years ago, much less doing something like...de-emphasizing Power Girl's bust (which also gets cries of outrage).

Part of this is because those characters are much older and less overall relevant in today's world.

 

 

There is certainly loud pushback on a lot of assumptions about comic book/cartoon characters today, however. Some of the more common ones that I'm aware of (with exceptionally minimal understanding of the comic book scene since I have never read them) are things like the Hawkeye Initiative (the most classic pose being the various ones where a woman character is able to show off both her chest and ass cleavage in the same shot).

 

Comic Cons and the like (as well as game cons, and really a lot of places of geek culture that have historically been heavily dominated by males) have started to see movements such as Cosplay is not Consent because it's enough of a problem. A friend of mine is a member of the 501st Legion out of Calgary (and is actually a huge fan of Darth Nihilus and has frequently cosplayed as him) and has had to deal with it personally herself.

 

 

 

See my point about cryptopatriarchality above, you are taking it upon yourself to speak for "the poor ignored women" who, according to your imagination, are offended by the lack of bulging penii in games. Seriously, women are a) individuals b) very capable of fighting their own battles, c) without men or other women telling them what to do. Bs like this is what stands in the way of true equality.

Please note that you are coming across as stating that my opinion is merely one of a "special interest group" which comes across as a bit dismissive, at best. I don't have this perspective because it isn't something that I think is a good thing.

 

 

 

Crazy talk, every thing in gaming is a place for serious debate.

Given that gaming is ostensibly a luxury good that, if it disappeared from the world tomorrow would result in us simply "finding something else to do" I think there's a reasonable argument that virtually all issues in gaming are of relatively similar importance, irrespective of whether or not you consider it of high or low importance.

 

 

I find it hilarious when white knights assume they know what the majority of women want. Of course, assuming they know best what a certain group wants and getting outraged for them is prototypical white knight behavior. It's funny that white knights see themselves as some kind of moral role models and waging the war on stereotyping when their actions are the very definition of stereotyping.

I find it insulting, and conveniently dismissive, that you seem to feel that my position is one of white knighting because evidently I think I know what's best for the majority of women, as opposed to simply being the position of myself and other people, men and women, that I know share the same opinion as me. Would you say your perspective is particularly "prototypical" in a different way? Or, like me, is it a situation of "This is the way I feel, therefore I don't feel I'm being a stereotype" even if the opposite perspective does feel that way?

 

 

I don't think forcing the issue is the way to go about it. But i'm sure that there is an ulterior motive behind the people who pursue this issue; whether they realize it or not. In my mind if they honestly cared so much about equal representation on games they would get a degree in computer science, or digital art, or any game related fields and be the change they want to see in the world.

Many of them are starting to get those degrees (or relevant professional expertise in whatever field they feel is appropriate - though there is still potential systemic issues and cultural challenges that may exist).

 

But I still think it's (in)convenient to dismiss people asking for features that they want to be simply "forcing the issue." If you remove a customer's ability to request something from a game, you're just removing a particular form of feedback. Without it, you don't get Double Fine making a kickstarter, which helped prompt a lot of other studios to make kickstarters, including Obsidian's. Crowd funding is effectively a way for people to provide the monetary backing to previously established verbal discourse. Obsidian had reasonable assurances that they could crowd fund Project Eternity because people on this forum talk about what they like about Obsidian's games, and so forth.

 

Would this mean that any feedback for what someone would like to see in a game is effectively "forcing the issue?"

 

 

And to Alan... Mario is japanese character. Japanese developers shown in the past much more flexibility than their western counterparts, when it goes about depicting various body types and character types or trying to keep away from typical stereotypes. As an example for all could be used Drakensang series...

That's nice, but it's still a game with immense exposure pretty much anywhere video games are played. As such, the exposure of Mario as a protagonist is more pervasive. The same goes for a lot of games that come out of Japan, although many games from Japan will never make it over due to cultural dissimilarities.

 

there are lot of women who do not consider big boobs in games as objectification of their gender

This is absolutely true. There are lots of people that don't consider DRM a bad thing either (to use an example that I hope resonates a bit more closely for you). I hope you can understand that this means that your position on DRM is not irrelevant, simply because others don't share it.

Edited January 22, 2014 by alanschu

[BruceVC]

Guys I don't mean to sound sycophantic but I really encourage people to read what Alan has written in his last 2 posts as he took the time to respond to many comments. But read it without emotion, try to be open minded. As I mentioned he uses almost irrefutable logic and is brilliant at making a point in a way that I fail to see how anyone can dispute what he is saying. This is not about being right or wrong, this is about a different perspective. I genuinely learnt new things about this debate from his input

 

[Orogun01]

Boy, did he multiquoted the heck out of us.


@Alanschu: the phrase "forcing the issue" was something I deliberately choose because of two things, the type of rethoric that its being used (Tropes vs Women and the like) and the fact that there isn't a clear idea of what the women's vg market is. BTW I do agree that growth in the industry is a good thing (as I like being employed) but with what's going on with AAA releasing less games and hiking up production costs, that growth is unlikely to be lateral.
You touched upon crowd funding, which is a great place to prove whether or not the "half of gamers are women" demographic is true. If there is a growing games for females market then it wouldn't be far-fetched to assume that a female targeted project would find funding.

[BruceVC]

Boy, did he multiquoted the heck out of us.

 

 

 

 

"Boy, did he multiquoted the heck out of us"