Josh Sawyer talks about stealth mechanics

[Infinitron]

http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...d=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=3#post424534478

There's something I don't quite get here, though. If the radii of your party's circles are determined by the average perception level of the creatures on the level, then how are the radii of the creature's circles determined?

 

Are they symmetrically determined by the average of your party's perception? That wouldn't make much sense, since they're not the ones trying to sneak up on you.

 

Are they determined by the average of your party's stealth skills, perhaps?

 

Are they based on each individual creature's perception?

 

Or a combination of the previous two?

 

It seems a bit silly overall - if you've got a level with twenty blind monks and an eagle-eyed elf, the elf's ability to perceive you is hurt by the monks' presence. But I guess his higher perception can compensate for that somewhat, if the radius of his circle is indeed influenced by that.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Infinitron

[JFSOCC]

Reading this makes me very happy on so many levels. This is very close to what was discussed in this forum, and I can hardly complain seeing something I argued for (or similar) make it in.

[PrimeJunta]

That sounds way better than in the IE games or their successors. I like.

 

If the circles are visible, though, I don't think it ought to be too difficult to have them expand or contract based on light levels. That would be a neat addition.

 

Couldn't quite parse how the circle normalization based on averages thing works in practice, but we'll see when we'll see.

[Infinitron]

 

Couldn't quite parse how the circle normalization based on averages thing works in practice, but we'll see when we'll see.

 

It's basically a reverse form of level scaling.

 

See, if they had your party's circles determined entirely by their stealth skills, then at high levels the circles would become so small they'd completely disappear. That entire mechanic would be removed from play, and stealth would become a game based entirely on enemy perception levels.

 

It's not the most elegant solution to the problem, but it is a solution.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Infinitron

[Elerond]

If I understand correctly comparison to average perception rating is done to proportion radii of the circles to character skill levels, so that radii of the circles can be kept in about same size when party members are on same level as enemies on the level.  

Edited January 17, 2014 by Elerond

[IndiraLightfoot]

This first whiff of a stealth system exceeds my expectations, and indeed it shows that they are listening to what we discuss here.

[Wombat]

If the circles are visible, though, I don't think it ought to be too difficult to have them expand or contract based on light levels. That would be a neat addition.

Agreed but, in other words, Sawyer's explanation makes more sense when they are not visible...

 

Also, now I wonder how other skills will be implemented.  Indeed, somehow it's todays' standard for some games to offer both stealth and assault gameplays.  However, I wonder if they can offer juicy gameplay for other skills even compared with the additional layer of gameplay given by the stealth mechanic.  Admittedly, this is quite a luxury already, though.

[Infinitron]

nm

Edited January 17, 2014 by Infinitron

[Osvir]

Are the graphical circles UI, and is this something that can be turned on/off (Show/Hide)? If you can "Hide" it, is there some signifying element in-game that tells me "The guard is investigating" or "the guard is hostile".

Example/Concept:
1) Circles On = You see where the border of the circles are, so you know mechanically both how good you are at stealth as well as how far away you are from getting detected.
2) Circles Off = The guard will "grunt" or deviate in some way when "Investigating" (not exclusive to "Off").

The main difference here would be that in 1 you know when and why you trigger the "Investigate" but in 2 it'll just happen and you'll have to "guess" how far your circles go so that you can avoid hostility. In 1) you'd be able to visually see how good you are and hear the "grunt", in 2) you'd only hear the "grunt". Like many of my harder difficulty thoughts (which this also is part of), I'd take this for a spin once or twice.

I am also curious if in-game "shadows" (on screen as well as mechanically) affect the Scout mode and the circles in any way.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Osvir

[mstark]

Reading this makes me very happy on so many levels. This is very close to what was discussed in this forum, and I can hardly complain seeing something I argued for (or similar) make it in.

This. Exactly this. He even mentioned Commandos.

 

I agree that the normalization - if indeed present as interpreted by Infinitron - seems a bit weird. What's the issue with giving NPCs a fixed perception that grows larger with a higher skill, and your characters a fixed stealth radius that grows smaller with higher skill? As long as the tiny circle of your stealthy rogue doesn't touch the huge circle of the highly perceptive watch scout you'd be fine. I have a feeling there may be scenarios where normalization makes a lot of sense, though. Would be nice to know.

Edited January 17, 2014 by mstark

[Infinitron]

mstark, as I said, I think the problem is that unlike Perception, your Stealth skill keeps on increasing as you level up (if you choose to increase it).

 

That means that eventually, at high levels, the Stealth circles will shrink into nothingness and cease to exist as a game mechanic. Stealth will become a game based on avoiding enemy Perception circles only. It's like how in high level AD&D your THAC0 eventually becomes so low that hitting enemies becomes pretty much guaranteed.

 

Of course, some people might not see that as a problem, but rather as something inherent to the high level experience.

 

That said, since Perception scores also have an upper limit (barring magical enhancement), even that's not a permanent solution, so I dunno.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Infinitron

[Elerond]

Infinitron Sawyer mentions that there is min and max sizes for the circles and his word choice perception rating in my opinion indicates that perception attribute is not only thing that impact how large or small character's perception circle's radius is.

[mstark]

mstark, as I said, the problem with that is that unlike Perception, your Stealth skill keeps on increasing as you level up (if you choose to increase it).

 

That means that eventually, at high levels, the Stealth circles will shrink into nothingness and cease to exist as a game mechanic. Stealth will become a game based on avoiding enemy Perception circles only. It's like how in high level AD&D your THAC0 eventually becomes so low that hitting enemies becomes pretty much guaranteed.

 

Of course, some people might not see that as a problem, but rather as something inherent to the high level experience.

Sorry, I only skimmed the posts after the OP (at work!). I should read properly.

 

However, from what we've seen of stat points, on a level 8 character (which should be close to end-game in PoE) it seems like a +36% is a major bonus. A maxed out rouge may never achieve more than -50% or -75% to their radius, which can be controlled fairly easily by making sure which bonuses are available from items. Potentially, diminishing returns or hard caps could be introduced if they'd prefer to have a plethora of stealth based items available (though I'm usually not a fan of that kind of solution).

Edited January 17, 2014 by mstark

[Infinitron]

Infinitron Sawyer mentions that there is min and max sizes for the circles and his word choice perception rating in my opinion indicates that perception attribute is not only thing that impact how large or small character's perception circle's radius is.

 

Yeah, maybe. His mention of a "low level area" filled with "unperceptive dopes" is unusual, since AFAIK even a low level character can have a high Perception score if he chooses it in character generation. There may be some sort of actual level-scaling factor involved here as well.

[TrashMan]

No facing? No light levels?

 

I'm kinda dissapointed the devs think it's "too complicated" for us.

 

I can already visually see the circles and the areas that are darker/brighter - what information overload are we talkign about?

[JFSOCC]

While I don't want to over-ask, I agree with Trashman that I wouldn't complain if vision cones or light elements affected stealth were also added.

 

That said though, the system as is sounds challenging enough, especially if you put guards near choke points like in front of doors, or let them patrol narrow hallways.

In that sense, the gamist beats out the simulationist in me and I'll say "good enough" if it truly is challenging enough.

[Nonek]

Erm, sorry to ask but how do I go about sneaking up and slitting opponents throats (cosh, hamstring, slit femoral artery etcetera)  do their backs have to be turned for us to avoid their detection circles? Or do we have to use disguises and such in scripted sequences, similar to Torment's Dustmen robes and Zombie facade?

[Infinitron]

You don't.

 

(except scripted sequences. anything is possible in scripted sequences)

Edited January 17, 2014 by Infinitron

[Nonek]

Ah well thank you for the information Infinitron, a pity to abandon such a great mechanic from literature and film, but there you are one can't have everything.

[Lysen]

You don't.

 

(except scripted sequences. anything is possible in scripted sequences)

 

So you can't backstab people and you can't steal from them except in scripted sequences? Great.

[mstark]

You do realize this is all just derived assumption based on a tiny lump of information and not necessarily actual fact?

[IndiraLightfoot]

You do realize this is all just derived assumption based on a tiny lump of information and not necessarily actual fact?

 

And this applies to all the PE forums here as well, and most of my posts, and your point is...? 

 

Just kidding!

[Infinitron]

 

You don't.

 

(except scripted sequences. anything is possible in scripted sequences)

 

So you can't backstab people and you can't steal from them except in scripted sequences? Great.

 

 

Well, you can backstab, but you won't be stealthed while you do it.

 

I suppose they could implement some sort of short detection delay so you can try to run in for the stab before you turn visible.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Infinitron

[Nonek]

 

 

You don't.

 

(except scripted sequences. anything is possible in scripted sequences)

 

So you can't backstab people and you can't steal from them except in scripted sequences? Great.

 

 

Well, you can backstab, but you won't be stealthed while you do it.

 

I suppose they could implement some sort of short detection delay so you can try to run in for the stab before you turn visible.

 

 

Just so long as we don't have the hideous teleport behind an enemy as was used in DA2 i'll be happy, but more and more the Rogue is sounding like just another form of (albeit more skilled with weapons and armour) Fighter, I still think the chap should be renamed to reflect this.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Nonek

[Infinitron]

It's funny that people say that. The reason why AD&D Thieves (remember when they were called Thieves?) were renamed to Rogues in 3rd Edition is BECAUSE they were becoming a bit "Fightery" with their non-stealth Sneak Attack. But all that did was train people to think that Rogues and Thieves were the same thing. 

 

Anyway, that's not relevant here, because all classes can stealth in this game, not just Rogues.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Infinitron