Can I even handle a game like PE any longer? Well, I sure hope so!

[Elerond]

Path of the Damned is combat difficult challenge option for those who want their combat to be extremely challenging, so I don't understand why it should anyway impact on difficulty of non-combat options, XP gain from combat or even how much loot you get from combat. 

 

There is at least three challege modes in PoE, which you can turn on one, two or even all three. If you want to make non-combat options more challenging you can do that by turning expert mode on.

 

Path of the Damned is a spiritual successor to Icewind Dale's Heart of Fury mode. In our encounters, we like to turn individual combatants on and off based on the level of difficulty. If you come into an area on Easy, maybe casters are replaced with weak melee enemies. If you come in on Hard, maybe the casters are augmented by a tough melee enemy or two. With Path of the Damned, that goes out the window. All enemies from all levels of difficulty are enabled and the combat mechanics are amplified to make battles much more brutal for everyone involved.

 

If you guessed that Trial of Iron is like Temple of Elemental Evil's Ironman Mode, you guessed right. When you start a Trial of Iron game, you have one save game that persists for the entire campaign... or until you die. And if you die, your save game is deleted. Enjoy!

 

 

Expert Mode will disable all of the common ease-of-use / in-case-you-missed it gameplay elements like the display of skill thresholds, influence/reputation modifiers, and similar "helper" information. In a fashion similar to Fallout: New Vegas' Hardcore Mode, Expert Mode will also enable more punitive and demanding gameplay elements, in and out of combat. We're not saying we're going to have weighty gold (for real, we're not saying that), but if we did, you can bet that would be automatically turned on by Expert Mode.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/316398

[PrimeJunta]

Yes. What's puzzling me about this discussion is that people who apparently enjoy the extra-hard combat challenge of Path of the Damned apparently also want to do everything they can to avoid said challenges, unless provided with extra incentives in the form of loot or XP.

 

Out of curiosity, would an Achievement for fighting ALL the battles -- i.e., never taking the non-combat path where a combat path was on offer -- in Path of the Damned do for a reward? I'd imagine that'd give you some hardcore cred to flaunt, if you're so inclined.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Yes. What's puzzling me about this discussion is that people who apparently enjoy the extra-hard combat challenge of Path of the Damned apparently also want to do everything they can to avoid said challenges, unless provided with extra incentives in the form of loot or XP.

 

No, that's not it at all. The challenge of HoF mode in the IWD games is to finish the game. 99.9% of the combat was unavoidable. The same challenge with Path of the Damned will also be to finish the game. It's not about the combat, it's to finish the game and say 'Yes, I finished HoF / PotD'. Not, 'I just did 500 battles in HoF mode'.

[BruceVC]

The Internet needs more people like you, @milczyciel.

 

What about me Prime, doesn't the Internet need more people like me who are committed evangelists to decent Romance options in RPG? You know you need more people like me .....

[Sarex]

No, that's not it at all. The challenge of HoF mode in the IWD games is to finish the game. 99.9% of the combat was unavoidable. The same challenge with Path of the Damned will also be to finish the game. It's not about the combat, it's to finish the game and say 'Yes, I finished HoF / PotD'. Not, 'I just did 500 battles in HoF mode'.

 

Spot on. Also how did this turn out being about getting a rewarded or not, the whole point of my question was how are they going to make skipping the combat hard in path of the damned mode. I swear, talking to you people is like talking to politicians, they will talk about anything and everything except what is being discussed.

[Elerond]

 

Yes. What's puzzling me about this discussion is that people who apparently enjoy the extra-hard combat challenge of Path of the Damned apparently also want to do everything they can to avoid said challenges, unless provided with extra incentives in the form of loot or XP.

 

No, that's not it at all. The challenge of HoF mode in the IWD games is to finish the game. 99.9% of the combat was unavoidable. The same challenge with Path of the Damned will also be to finish the game. It's not about the combat, it's to finish the game and say 'Yes, I finished HoF / PotD'. Not, 'I just did 500 battles in HoF mode'.

 

Avoidable encounter's don't necessary make it easier to finish the game in Path of the Damned mode as to avoid combat you need party that has necessary abilities to avoid those encounters, which probably make it less superior party in combat and as game has unavoidable encounters that can mean in such challenge mode that party which can avoid encounters may not have ability to survive from unavoidable encounters or at least those unavoidable encounters are much more difficult to beat than what they would be with full combat focused party.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Avoidable encounter's don't necessary make it easier to finish the game in Path of the Damned mode as to avoid combat you need party that has necessary abilities to avoid those encounters, which probably make it less superior party in combat and as game has unavoidable encounters that can mean in such challenge mode that party which can avoid encounters may not have ability to survive from unavoidable encounters or at least those unavoidable encounters are much more difficult to beat than what they would be with full combat focused party.

 

You won't need a party to have the necessary skills. You probably only need one party member to have the necessary speech skills. So you'll still be an effective party in combat.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Sarex, Stun, Monte Carlo and other doubters on Obsidian making the Path of the Damned a true challenge regardless of encounter solutions: 

Like Tajerio said, Josh has confirmed that you can't do a pacifist playthrough in PE. And like Elerond just underlined, parties emphasising all-sneaking or smooth-talking will be more vulnerable when there will be combat, and combat will be extremely abundant, we already know that.

 

It seems that you guys don't trust Josh & Co getting the balances for the difficulties right and challenging enough. You keep coming back to that strawman situ, where an INT or CHA check will solve any tough encounter. It's a bit embarrassing, actually.

I reckon, you should put more trust in Josh on this than on almost any other designer. Look at his track record, and also, do you recall this?

Josh Sawyer released his own personal mod for Fallout: New Vegas, where he made the game as hard as he wanted it to be, with plenty of difficulty tweaks.
His goal is clearly to make games with solid combat systems challenging and versatile.

I think we have the right guy on the job here.

Edited January 20, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Sarex, Stun, Monte Carlo and other doubters on Obsidian making the Path of the Damned a true challenge regardless of encounter solutions: 

Like Tajerio said, Josh has confirmed that you can't do a pacifist playthrough in PE. And like Elerond just underlined, parties emphasising all-sneaking or smooth-talking will be more vulnerable when there will be combat, and combat will be extremely abundant, we already know that.

 

It seems that you guys don't trust Josh & Co getting the balances for the difficulties right and challenging enough. You keep coming back to that strawman situ, where an INT or CHA check will solve any tough encounter. It's a bit embarrassing, actually.

I reckon, you should put more trust in Josh on this than on almost any other designer. Look at this track record, and also, do you recall this?

Josh Sawyer released his own personal mod for Fallout: New Vegas, where he made the game as hard as he wanted it to be, with plenty of difficulty tweaks.

His goal is clearly to make games with solid combat systems challenging and versatile.

I think we have the right guy on the job here.

 

Nobody is saying you can do a pacifist play through. Also, no one is emphasising that all party members will be all-sneaking or smooth-talking. If you have one party member that can talk their way through encounters, the other five battle/combat heavy characters should just breeze right through. Being able to talk your way through some parts of the game has been confirmed. We already know that. Or are the dialogue options going to be changed for Path of the Damned? Seems a lot of work changing the dialogue from the normal game to Path of the Damned and creating a new game.

 

And speaking of strawmans. There are so many examples in your post, one wonders if you read what you write.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[IndiraLightfoot]

Name one.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

one wonders if you read what you write.

I certainly do, but you don't read what I or anybody else write.

 

Nobody ever said "emphasising that all party members will be all-sneaking or smooth-talking". The issue was parties that emphasized sneaking or smooth-talking.

And most doom-n-gloom posts on the difficulty of Path of the Damned and no kill xp in this thread and in others indeed repeatedly make a strawman case of non-demanding playthroughs, devoid of combat, and lazy design, where a little bit of sneaking or smooth talking will make your party reach the end of the game in no time.

 

In what way do dialogue or sneak options water down the challenge in Path of the Damned or the game in general? Are we even on the same page that it is great that these options are included in PE?

Edited January 20, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[PrimeJunta]

Spot on. Also how did this turn out being about getting a rewarded or not, the whole point of my question was how are they going to make skipping the combat hard in path of the damned mode. I swear, talking to you people is like talking to politicians, they will talk about anything and everything except what is being discussed.

Why would you want them to make skipping combat hard in Path of the Damned?

 

Why not just have two challenges, regular Path of the Damned, where avoiding tough combat wherever possible is a viable strategy, and Hellbound Fiery Bloodsoaked Path of the Eternally Damned Extra Hardcore Challenge, which you only get by completing Path of the Damned without avoiding any of the combats?

[PrimeJunta]

What about me Prime, doesn't the Internet need more people like me who are committed evangelists to decent Romance options in RPG? You know you need more people like me .....

That would irredeemably and tragically diminish your utterly unique uniqueness, BruceVC. That would be too tragic to contemplate.

[Karkarov]

What I don't get is the constant balance in these games around the idea that you can't be a strong combat character who also happens to be a smooth talker or good at stealth.  I am pretty sure that just because you are a fighter doesn't = has to be an idiot lout who talks at the third grade level.

[IndiraLightfoot]

What I don't get is the constant balance in these games around the idea that you can't be a strong combat character who also happens to be a smooth talker or good at stealth.  I am pretty sure that just because you are a fighter doesn't = has to be an idiot lout who talks at the third grade level.

I know, this binary or "trinary" way of thinking really bothers me too. Hopefully PE will prove people with such black-n-white notions wrong.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

The Internet needs more people like you, @milczyciel.

 

 

What about me Prime, doesn't the Internet need more people like me who are committed evangelists to decent Romance options in RPG? You know you need more people like me .....

No.

[Karkarov]

 

What I don't get is the constant balance in these games around the idea that you can't be a strong combat character who also happens to be a smooth talker or good at stealth.  I am pretty sure that just because you are a fighter doesn't = has to be an idiot lout who talks at the third grade level.

I know, this binary or "trinary" way of thinking really bothers me too. Hopefully PE will prove people with such black-n-white notions wrong.

 

Well those preconceptions always helped me in D&D when I played my favorite character who loved pretending to be a traveling bard who played the harp and was a painter on the side.  Then when combat started he turned into a berserker killer with a two handed sword and a fondness for throwing darts laced with contact poison.

[cresentdark]

Oh as an additional thought in case Obsidian is listening .  That illithid level from BG2?  How about we don't do something similar in Eternity?  Just saying, that's the the kinda BS encounter design that is just frustrating and stupid and makes people quit a game instead of work through it.

Not sure about you but that was easy for me I always had a godly setup. Get to a safe zone summon all your creatures with a priest or druid mage ect need three of them. Cast really strong creatures summon some weaker ones mid level then, then summon higher level creatures until you run out of summoned creature spells then sleep then summon all you high level creatures again send them in then you go with them and by that time all the monsters are easy to kill. When I played the game the first time in BG1 Bg2 NW1 NW2 ect I tanked all those games and beat it then after that I liked massing a army per say with creature spells and sending them in as if I was the general and spilling monster blood and dropping them all to the ground. Only time my tactics failed was sadly on the guy you bring all the bones to bring him back to life and fight him till I figured out a good way of defeating him. Personally I like a game to take super long and puzzles don't mind them taking a while I like a good puzzle unless they make no since of course. I hope this game comes out sooner then the later though I think they should focus and getting what they had planned out now first then everything they do after that goes into a true expanstion not a dlc most dlc are super short 10 to 15 hours is not even a true dlc a true dlc is like 30 hour plu.

[Karkarov]

 

Oh as an additional thought in case Obsidian is listening .  That illithid level from BG2?  How about we don't do something similar in Eternity?  Just saying, that's the the kinda BS encounter design that is just frustrating and stupid and makes people quit a game instead of work through it.

Not sure about you but that was easy for me I always had a godly setup.

Well here is the thing... there is nothing tactical... or even fun about resting after every encounter and using one strategy for literally every fight in the entire game.  I had no problems beating the game.  I have beaten BG2 more than once.  That doesn't mean the encounter design wasn't bad though, in this case you just had to game the system in one of a few ways.

 

My preferred method of mind flayer handling was to buff my main character (brutal killing machine fighter) with haste, chaotic commands, death ward, protection from negative energy, a strength buff just to push him to 24, and hand him all the healing potions just in case.  Then he would open the door, walk in, turn, close the door.  5 rounds later when everything else in the room was dead because nothing they could do worked on him he opened the door again.

[Metabot]

I don't know. It really didn't take summoning that many creatures. I did fine with a fire elemental with chaotic command cast on it and 2 skeletons. Of coutse, you do have to rest or use wondrous recall once your summon dies.

[Stun]

 

What I don't get is the constant balance in these games around the idea that you can't be a strong combat character who also happens to be a smooth talker or good at stealth.  I am pretty sure that just because you are a fighter doesn't = has to be an idiot lout who talks at the third grade level.

I know, this binary or "trinary" way of thinking really bothers me too. Hopefully PE will prove people with such black-n-white notions wrong.

 

Except that it won't. Since we were promised a party based RPG. What's the point of having a party based RPG if just 1 character can do everything?

 

Josh has already told us how it's going to be in POE... and it's not a whole lot different from, say, IWD2 in that aspect. The classes will be the specialists in their primary skills. Thus, while every class can stealth, none will be better at it than Rogues. While every class can tank, the best tanks will be the warrior classes. etc.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Stun

[Sheikh]

On one hand I have all the time I need and I wouldnt waste it on ****ty RPGs and ****ty other games just because Im better off spending my time listening to music and doing nothing much. So Im really looking forward to Pillars of Eternity to get a good time out of it. On the other hand even if I am going to really enjoy PE, I would never take it overly seriously.

[BruceVC]

On one hand I have all the time I need and I wouldnt waste it on ****ty RPGs and ****ty other games just because Im better off spending my time listening to music and doing nothing much. So Im really looking forward to Pillars of Eternity to get a good time out of it. On the other hand even if I am going to really enjoy PE, I would never take it overly seriously.

 

So in summary you don't care if PoE is a good game because you have loads of time on your hands to not play RPG   

[cresentdark]

I will play the hell out of it because I have a feeling it's going to be a sexy beast of a game lol

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

 

one wonders if you read what you write.

I certainly do, but you don't read what I or anybody else write.

 

Nobody ever said "emphasising that all party members will be all-sneaking or smooth-talking". The issue was parties that emphasized sneaking or smooth-talking.

And most doom-n-gloom posts on the difficulty of Path of the Damned and no kill xp in this thread and in others indeed repeatedly make a strawman case of non-demanding playthroughs, devoid of combat, and lazy design, where a little bit of sneaking or smooth talking will make your party reach the end of the game in no time.

 

In what way do dialogue or sneak options water down the challenge in Path of the Damned or the game in general? Are we even on the same page that it is great that these options are included in PE?

 

 

Actually I do read what you write but nice way to misrepresent me. Can't debate the points so you attack the person with straw man arguments.

 

And no one is talking about Path of the Damned with things like "lazy design". That's a straw man right there! Who has said Path of the Damned has lazy design? You are saying posters in this thread are bringing up Path of the Damned has "lazy design"? The only person that has brought up "lazy design" is you! Yep, keep bringing up these strawman arguments with things like "lazy design" if it makes it easier to attack other posters on this forum - even though no one had mentioned Path of the Damned has "lazy design"..

 

Bringing up things like 'How is Obsidian going to do ..... in Path of the Damned?' is not all doom-n-gloom posts. They're legitimate questions and speculating on Path of the Damned with what it's based on (HoF) is legitimate discussion. Just because it's not all 'everything will be great' and 'have faith'^TM posts doesn't mean it's all doom and gloom.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II